Grand Prix Rejects

I have two problems with the change:

1. They're getting rid of the Curva Grande. Ok, this is not a massive issue from a racing perspective, but it is one of the more iconic parts of the circuit and I would hate to see it go.
2. The new chicane appears to be too close to Variante della Roggia for the latter corner to be as effective an overtaking spot as it was in the past. I think the circuit would be better off getting rid of one of the two chicanes.

Since the cars cannot follow each other on high speed corners, they are simply being removed one by one from the circuits. It is the butchers solution. Doesn't work? Cut it off. I bet if they removed the one in Barcelona they would solve the lack of overtaking at the end of the main straight...

It's not really anything to do with F1; the Monza owners are trying to get the circuit to an FIM Grade 1 license.

I would have liked to have seen more of the Curva Grande kept instead of the abrupt kink to the right. The constant radius curve into the braking area would have been much more entertaining - try braking while cornering instead of braking in a straight line! They could have flipped the configuration of the chicane then, so it would be right then left instead, with a kink to bring it back onto the existing circuit and under the bridge.

The Curva Grande would be easy flat with a chicane before it or not, so I don't really care about it, and that long straight looks nice. It seems a lot like the previous change, though, in that they're replacing an obvious crash generator with an obvious crash generator. Really, I don't see a reason to like it more or less than what we have, so I'll give it a chance.

Can you imagine the run into the first braking zone on lap 1? That's going to be an impressive spectacle...if we ever see it.

Let's give a chance to it. I think Monza needs to change something to improve the races.

"Curva Grande..."

...is what Polish-Italian amateur racer Giuliano Klinowski said when he saw the changes to Monza.

AustralianStig wrote:Can you imagine the run into the first braking zone on lap 1? That's going to be an impressive spectacle...if we ever see it.

Would also depend on gearing ratios. With fixed gear ratios for the season, I can imagine many cars red-lining prior to that new chicane.

Time to make an attempt at 2017.

Mercedes
Lewis Hamilton
Nico Rosberg?

Lewis is confirmed and Nico allegedly is weeks away from a contract extension. It's a lock.

Red Bull
Max Verstappen
Daniel Ricciardo?
Carlos Sainz Jr.?

Verstappen a certainty to stay and Ricciardo likely if he doesn't jump ship to Ferrari, Sainz to step up if he does.

Ferrari
Sebastian Vettel
Kimi Raikkonen?
Romain Grosjean?
Daniel Ricciardo?

If Kimi leaves then I see Grosjean stepping up to Ferrari the most likely bet. Ricciardo could be an option if Red Bull really start to overlook him for Verstappen but probably unlikely that Vettel will want another year with him.

Williams
Valtteri Bottas
Felipe Massa?
Jenson Button?
Alex Lynn?

Bottas should be a sure thing, one rumour I read recently was Button replacing Massa if McLaren drop him for Vandoorne and he has shown interest in continuing in F1 for the new regs. Finally there is also Alex Lynn if he is enough of a contender in GP2 this year but a 2018 promotion is far more likely.

Torro Rosso
Carlos Sainz Jr.?
Daniil Kvyat?
Pierre Gasly?

Sainz will definitely be here for a third season if not at Red Bull. Kvyat would almost certainly be out but fortunately for him there happens to be a fairly large gap in the Red Bull junior program with only Gasly anywhere near F1 ready. And I suspect he'd struggle in F1 at that compared to Verstappen/Sainz.

McLaren
Fernando Alonso
Stoffel Vandoorne?
Jenson Button?

Alonso is contracted for 2017, Button isn't. McLaren have recently said they will fight to keep Vandoorne which surely means finally giving him a race seat at this point.

Force India
Sergio Perez
Nico Hulkenburg
Pascal Wehrlein?
Felipe Massa?
Jenson Button?

Same lineup is the most likely bet, could see Mercedes placing Wehrlein here to give him a better chance at points or maybe a veteran like Massa or Button if they lose their current drives. Hulk is probably more likely to leave than Perez.

Haas
Romain Grosjean?
Esteban Gutierrez?
Nico Hulkenburg?
Jean-Eric Vergne?

Same lineup again is certain unless Grosjean gets the call up to Ferrari. If that happens, this is an interesting one. I could see someone like Hulkenburg moving over, or Vergne being given a 2nd chance at F1. Of the Ferrari juniors I don't see Fouco or Leclerc being F1 ready by 2017.

Renault
Kevin Magnussen
Joylon Palmer?
Sergei Sirotkin?
Esteban Ocon?

Magnussen ought to be certain to stay and lead the team, I doubt they could pouch someone like Ricciardo to do that. I see no reason for them to keep Palmer other than money and even then Sirotkin is a better option for that and arguably has more raw talent too. Ocon is another option but though he is Renault reserve he is still a Mercedes junior on loan to the team and if he is in F1 next season I think it will be with Manor.

Sauber?
Marcus Ericsson?
Felipe Nasr?
Nobuharu Matsushita?

Even if they make it to the end of 2016, I'd be surprised if Sauber were still around in 2017. If they are, perhaps they can be a customer Honda engine team in exchange for Matsushita? Who even knows?

Manor
Pascal Wehrlein?
Esteban Ocon?
Rio Haryanto?
Jordan King?

Wehrlein should surely have another season if Mercedes don't secure him somewhere better like Force India. Ocon could make it a full Mercedes junior team but if not, Haryanto should stay if the Indonesian $$$ keeps on coming. Or maybe development driver, King could buy a promotion?

Ataxia wrote:It's not really anything to do with F1; the Monza owners are trying to get the circuit to an FIM Grade 1 license.

I guess I jumped the shark on that one. What's worse is that I mistook the corner they will change for the parabolica and it seems they are getting rid of the first chicane which was a typical butcher's job. So butchering something that was already butchered is fine by my books. What is unclear though, is the real reason why the bikes went against curva grande since it appears previous incidents didn't came from that specific corner... It probably has to do with the run-off area although apparently 5 meters is the recommended width according the FIM track specifications.

Another chapter in the silly season. According with Brazilian website Grande Prêmio, Massa is talking with Renault for a seat. The potential replacements for the Brazilian are Button and Kvyat. Another information is the top teams like Ferrari don't have interest in Bottas anymore and renewing his contract with Williams is the logical option.

DanielPT wrote:

Ataxia wrote:It's not really anything to do with F1; the Monza owners are trying to get the circuit to an FIM Grade 1 license.

I guess I jumped the shark on that one. What's worse is that I mistook the corner they will change for the parabolica and it seems they are getting rid of the first chicane which was a typical butcher's job. So butchering something that was already butchered is fine by my books. What is unclear though, is the real reason why the bikes went against curva grande since it appears previous incidents didn't came from that specific corner... It probably has to do with the run-off area although apparently 5 meters is the recommended width according the FIM track specifications.

It is being suggested that it is not Curva Grande in and of itself that is necessarily the issue, but the knock on effects from the field being compressed by the Variante del Rettifilo just before they enter that corner. It seems to be more about removing the first lap accidents in the Variante del Rettifilo by increasing the length of the run to the first corner, thereby creating larger gaps between the different runners before the first braking zone.

From what I have read, though, it seems that the changes are not a dead cert to go ahead - it seems that there have been some changes in the senior management of the circuit owners since they lodged their application to change the circuit, and it seems that the senior management team isn't entirely supportive of this proposal.

Dj_bereta wrote:Another chapter in the silly season. According with Brazilian website Grande Prêmio, Massa is talking with Renault for a seat. The potential replacements for the Brazilian are Button and Kvyat. Another information is the top teams like Ferrari don't have interest in Bottas anymore and renewing his contract with Williams is the logical option.

The suggestions around Massa seem rather speculative, but I can believe that Ferrari's interest in Bottas might have waned and that Bottas would be looking to extend his contract with Williams. It does seem to be the case that, in 2015, people were expecting Bottas to put more of a gap between himself and Massa than he managed to do. Ferrari might well have changed their stance and decided that, if Bottas isn't that much stronger than a driver they sacked several years ago, perhaps they should be looking elsewhere instead.

From Bottas's point of view, meanwhile, signing a contract extension for Williams makes sense - if the option to move to Ferrari doesn't seem to be there, and with Mercedes and Red Bull being closed off, Williams look like they are the next most competitive team he can sign for at the moment.

Massa leaving Williams rumor is getting stronger day-by-day.

Dj_bereta wrote:Massa leaving Williams rumor is getting stronger day-by-day.

It would be a shame given that he is still relatively competitive against Bottas - he'd be a lot closer to Bottas in the standings without his retirements. I believe that Button's name has been mentioned a few times in connection with Williams - something McLaren might like given it would solve their problem of what to do with Vandoorne for 2017, whilst at the same time allowing both Button and McLaren to part ways on amicable terms.

It would be lovely to see Button back at Williams - I only hope they and McLaren doesn't cross over their competitive positions next season, and see Button yet again ending up at the wrong team at the wrong time!

mario wrote:

Dj_bereta wrote:Massa leaving Williams rumor is getting stronger day-by-day.

It would be a shame given that he is still relatively competitive against Bottas - he'd be a lot closer to Bottas in the standings without his retirements. I believe that Button's name has been mentioned a few times in connection with Williams - something McLaren might like given it would solve their problem of what to do with Vandoorne for 2017, whilst at the same time allowing both Button and McLaren to part ways on amicable terms.

If McLaren decide to keep Button and Massa leaves Williams, what would be Williams' options? Could Vandoorne have a chance there?

tBone wrote:

mario wrote:

Dj_bereta wrote:Massa leaving Williams rumor is getting stronger day-by-day.

It would be a shame given that he is still relatively competitive against Bottas - he'd be a lot closer to Bottas in the standings without his retirements. I believe that Button's name has been mentioned a few times in connection with Williams - something McLaren might like given it would solve their problem of what to do with Vandoorne for 2017, whilst at the same time allowing both Button and McLaren to part ways on amicable terms.

If McLaren decide to keep Button and Massa leaves Williams, what would be Williams' options? Could Vandoorne have a chance there?

I doubt, but the Belgian needs a seat ASAP. He is 24 already. He won't wait forever for a chance in the team.

Paul Hayes wrote:It would be lovely to see Button back at Williams - I only hope they and McLaren doesn't cross over their competitive positions next season, and see Button yet again ending up at the wrong team at the wrong time!

I do kind of want to see Button at Williams next season, it's the only way i'd want to see him remain in the sport to be honest. Vandoorne needs one of the McLaren seats next season, and I wouldn't drop Alonso. I still consider him the best driver in the sport, even if he hasn't had a car to prove that for years.

I think the chance of a Mercedes driver leaving at the end of the season has gone up significantly now, though which one I wouldn't know yet.

James1978 wrote:I think the chance of a Mercedes driver leaving at the end of the season has gone up significantly now, though which one I wouldn't know yet.

Has to be Rosberg. Hamilton has a higher value to the brand, his contract is more expensive to terminate - with two full years left on a £100 million deal - and Rosberg is easier to replace.

Regardless of whether the public or pundits think he would be ready or not, Toto Wolff appears to think of Pascal Wehrlein quite highly. Yesterday's performance will suddenly give him some ammo to approach the Mercedes board with, assuming of course he even needs their permission to say "to hell with Rosberg, let his contract expire and get Pascal instead".

Rosberg is in an extremely shaky position, thanks to the timing of contract renewals. The whole 'let them race' approach, and the repeated fallouts from it, are starting to come to a head, and right now one of the two has an excellent safety net, while the other is only a few months away from being without a team.

It's especially worrying for Nico, given he may have nowhere to go. Ferrari? It doesn't seem likely. They have a portfolio of sponsors to appease, and two Germans in one team won't be a good fit for them.

Speaking of the second Ferrari seat, the case for a Raikkonen renewal is growing stronger, thanks to his potential replacements growing weaker. After Bahrain you would have thought Grosjean was going to be a shoo-in for the drive, but he has slowly been turning into his old self. The frustration from an under-performing car is causing him to make mistakes from over-driving to compensate, just like in 2014 when dealing with the uncooperative Lotus.

The trouble with replacing Rosberg is that at least this guy can win races when Hamilton has an off-day (and quite often when Hamilton is having an on-day too to be fair). Signing up to the Ferrari model of Star Driver plus a nu-Barrichello or a nu-Irvine (nu-Salo?) is problematic because what happens when Hamilton spins off and the new guy is battling down in 8th?

I think Mercedes and Toto should just shut up and let them crack on with it because the last time I checked the Mercs were leading both championships.

CoopsII wrote:The trouble with replacing Rosberg is that at least this guy can win races when Hamilton has an off-day (and quite often when Hamilton is having an on-day too to be fair). Signing up to the Ferrari model of Star Driver plus a nu-Barrichello or a nu-Irvine (nu-Salo?) is problematic because what happens when Hamilton spins off and the new guy is battling down in 8th?

I think Mercedes and Toto should just shut up and let them crack on with it because the last time I checked the Mercs were leading both championships.

Yeah, I think this argument will win the day. It's certainly been the case the past few years with Ferrari - first with Massa and now Raikkonen. It's boring because it would be fun to see what someone like Wehrlein could do, but in the interests of the effing 'brand' and team success, they'd rather have someone that can be relied on.

The only decent seat I can see Rosberg getting if he leaves Mercedes, is Williams to be honest.

I did envisage a situation where Ricciardo gets alienated at Red Bull and approaches Mercedes, but then Red Bull would surely promote Sainz rather than take Rosberg.

James1978 wrote:I did envisage a situation where Ricciardo gets alienated at Red Bull and approaches Mercedes, but then Red Bull would surely promote Sainz rather than take Rosberg.

If that does happen though, Red Bull might be tempted to hire an outsider. At the moment, outside of Sainz and Kvyat, the young driver program looks rather bare so there wouldn't be too many options to call upon for.

I see one of your current overlord is now managing Ferrari....

Speculation is done for who'll drive at Ferrari for 2017. Kimi stays on for another season.

Miguel98 wrote:Speculation is done for who'll drive at Ferrari for 2017. Kimi stays on for another season.

Good decision, I think.

Miguel98 wrote:Speculation is done for who'll drive at Ferrari for 2017. Kimi stays on for another season.

A conservative, but sensible decision. Although Kimi has been heavily criticised over the past couple of seasons, this year he's shown that he can still bring in the points needed for the team to stay high up in the WCC (he's on even points with Seb at the moment)*. He's not as fast as he used to be, but the other available options would've been more or less a gamble.

*I'm aware this is due to Seb losing a lot of points due to bad luck, but Kimi was suffering from the same last year.

I'm a little disappointed to be honest. A shake up of the grid would had be fantastic to watch and it would be nice to see younger drivers getting a chance. As I recall the last time ferrari gave a younger driver a chance was massa in 2006.

I personally think kimi is well past his best now and I would have liked Grosjean in the car alongside Vettel but if they are holding out for Hamilton in 2018....

rachel1990 wrote:I'm a little disappointed to be honest. A shake up of the grid would had be fantastic to watch and it would be nice to see younger drivers getting a chance. As I recall the last time ferrari gave a younger driver a chance was massa in 2006.

I personally think kimi is well past his best now and I would have liked Grosjean in the car alongside Vettel but if they are holding out for Hamilton in 2018....

I think in Ferrari's defence that the plan was for Bianchi to do that, before he was taken away from us all.

It does still smack of lack of inspiration though, just like what happened to Raikkonnens predecessor, Massa in his final few years. It also kills the Hulks top team ambitions dead once and for all. Merc and Red Bull already have a talent program and enough choice.

Collieafc wrote:

rachel1990 wrote:I'm a little disappointed to be honest. A shake up of the grid would had be fantastic to watch and it would be nice to see younger drivers getting a chance. As I recall the last time ferrari gave a younger driver a chance was massa in 2006.

I personally think kimi is well past his best now and I would have liked Grosjean in the car alongside Vettel but if they are holding out for Hamilton in 2018....

I think in Ferrari's defence that the plan was for Bianchi to do that, before he was taken away from us all.

They were also contemplating giving Kubica a chance, weren't they? Or were those just rumours without substance?

dr-baker wrote:

Collieafc wrote:

rachel1990 wrote:I'm a little disappointed to be honest. A shake up of the grid would had be fantastic to watch and it would be nice to see younger drivers getting a chance. As I recall the last time ferrari gave a younger driver a chance was massa in 2006.

I personally think kimi is well past his best now and I would have liked Grosjean in the car alongside Vettel but if they are holding out for Hamilton in 2018....

I think in Ferrari's defence that the plan was for Bianchi to do that, before he was taken away from us all.

They were also contemplating giving Kubica a chance, weren't they? Or were those just rumours without substance?

Kubica was seriously under consideration by Ferrari - he was the very first driver they approached to replace Massa when he was injured in 2009, but BMW rejected all of Ferrari's requests to buy him out of his contract and made it clear that they would not let him race for them under any circumstances.

As rachel1990 says, it feels like Ferrari have gone for a very conservative decision here, and I do agree that it is a bit disappointing. Vettel's comment that he and Kimi have "the least ego problems in the whole paddock" is telling in one sense, since it suggests that Ferrari were very reluctant to introduce a new driver who could cause any conflict within the team and have placed team harmony top of their list. The thing is, it feels like a very short term decision by the team - as if they are just trying to kick the can further down the road whilst they try to work out what to do in the future.

As mentioned in Autosport, Kimi's relative performance against Vettel is just simply not good enough - he's been no more competitive than Massa was against Alonso (if anything, he's been even less competitive at times), and at his age you would expect that his long term performance metrics are in decline. Although he is quite experienced, he is reportedly not a particularly good development driver either, so that wouldn't seem to be an especially good reason to keep him on either.

As I always like to do, I've been trying to put together my ideal 2017 grid. I came up with something like this:

Mercedes - Lewis Hamilton & Nico Rosberg
Red Bull - Daniel Ricciardo & Max Verstappen
Ferrari - Sebastian Vettel & Romain Grosjean
Williams - Valtteri Bottas & Daniil Kvyat
Force India - Nico Hulkenberg & Sergio Perez
Toro Rosso - Carlos Sainz & Pierre Gasly
McLaren - Fernando Alonso & Stoffel Vandoorne
Haas - Charles Leclerc & Sebastien Buemi
Renault - Kevin Magnussen & Sergey Sirotkin
Manor - Pascal Wehrlein & Esteban Ocon
Sauber* - Antonio Fuoco & Alfonso Celis Jr
* - If they still exist by then

I would have liked to find space for Sainz and Perez a little higher up the grid, but there just isn't any

You seem to have missed Mclaren from your list.

Also I don't think Gasly will make it to F1. How many seasons in GP2 now and still no wins? Baku was a disaster for him and Austria the same. I've not watched the British races yet but weekend after weekend, Gasly seems to underperform compared to his obvious one lap pace.

Giovinazzi on the other hand is pretty good.

BigG80 wrote:You seem to have missed Mclaren from your list.

Also I don't think Gasly will make it to F1. How many seasons in GP2 now and still no wins? Baku was a disaster for him and Austria the same. I've not watched the British races yet but weekend after weekend, Gasly seems to underperform compared to his obvious one lap pace.

Yeah, you probably should watch them in that case.

I'm going to don't worry. Sky box missed the Feature race so I had to wait for the replay this morning to record it.

Even if he won I still don't think it changes much. He hasn't shown that he has the killer instinct and overall performance to be an F1 drIver.

I'm starting to think Manor could promote Jordan King alongside Wehrlein - if Pascal isn't getting called up by Mercedes to replace Rosberg...

So, in a live Q&A session on facebook, Esteban Gutiérrez seemed pretty sure of himself. When asked if he was staying at Haas another year, his answer went like this

Esteban Gutiérrez wrote: That is...a...very...interesting question...*Grins from ear to ear* I know where I'm going. I know what I'm doing, but I can't say anything yet

Vague and not necessarily meaning he's in Formula 1, but I found his reaction too interesting to ignore based on how he had to think about how not to give it away.