2025 discussion thread

[CoopsII]

I think it's quite interesting how destabilising Horner possibly being a bit of a creepy perv has been to the team. Someone else will know the timeline better than me but the house of cards, to keep the metaphors going, started to collapse around the same time. Didn't Newey decide to jump ship after that?

[MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx]

OK so what do they do next if Yuki doesn't perform well over the next 3 or 4 races and Liam manages to pick up more points that he does? Do they swap over again? Have someone else come in on the revolving carousel?

[mario]

I don't disagree with you Mario and Coops, but remember that jumping the shark isn't hitting bottom, it's just the sign that you are definitely past your peak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark (with some caveats)

In a sense, it certainly isn't a lost cause, and more championships may be forthcoming, but will we ever again think the organization is as good as we thought two-three years ago or even when Vettel was winning? The current cast of characters may need a complete rebuild before I'll concede they've returned to their peak.

I suppose that it depends how exactly you look at it - their peak in 2023 was so extreme that I don't think they would have been able to maintain that for long. Any sort of performance post 2023 might look like a bit of a come down after that, but still be fairly strong when looked at in the wider context - if they had a season akin to 2021, for example, would that still be considered poor? They might not be at the peak they were in 2023, but I don't think they're quite as spent a force as some portray them as either.

I think it's quite interesting how destabilising Horner possibly being a bit of a creepy perv has been to the team. Someone else will know the timeline better than me but the house of cards, to keep the metaphors going, started to collapse around the same time. Didn't Newey decide to jump ship after that?

Whilst Red Bull did have several defections of senior staff last year, it's hard to tell quite how much of that was directly down to those events and how many of those were pre-planned moves that happened to coincide with those events.

In the case of Wheatley moving to Audi, he seems to have been harbouring ambitions to become a team principal for a few years. However, there seems to have been no route for him to take that role up at Red Bull, and Audi's decision to push Binotto out created an opportunity for him - he might well have also felt that would be the last opportunity he'd get to take on that role before he retired, so that might have also been a strong incentive for him to leave.

As for Newey, that's kind of hard to judge - whilst some have suggested that affair might have been the trigger, there are also those who have suggested that relations between Red Bull and Newey had been weakening for a few years before that.

Some had noted that the team had downplayed Newey's influence on their 2022 and 2023 cars and given more credit to Pierre Waché, their technical director, and some have suggested Newey slightly resented that Waché seemed to be given credit for what he felt was his work.

Additionally, we know that it's been a long standing ambition of Newey to take on greater responsibility for the operations of a team, with those restrictions being cited as reasons for him leaving both Williams and McLaren. Whilst Red Bull might have given him more flexibility, he was still in a situation where he was never going to quite have that level of managerial control because it would overlap with others, including Horner.

That does seem to be something that the Stroll family have been able to exploit, given they've offered Newey many things he's wanted for a long time - much more direct control over the wider operations of the team, partial ownership of Aston Martin (the deal involved being given shares in the team) and so on. Other teams have made efforts in the past to try and lure away Newey from Red Bull, and if the Stroll family had put that sort of offer on the table in the past, that must have been very tempting for someone as ambitious as Newey.

Whilst it might therefore have been a factor, it's hard to tell quite how decisive a factor it may have been amongst the other factors that would have been in play at the time.

[Wallio]

or even when Vettel was winning?

Hot take, but current RBR is still a MUCH better organization than the Vettel years. It's just that they actually have competition now. 2 1/2 of the Vettel title wins were near Merc level curb stomps. The top 4 teams today (possibly even 5) would dominate nearly every past era of F1. Just look at the current Adton Martin base versus what Jordan had when they finished 5th in the WCC in '91. Or 3rd in '99. And even with the budget cap, so many things are uncapped that the $400-$500 million budgets of the '90s are still around.

[sswishbone]

The Lawson situation, to me, sums up Red Bull's lack of management consistency. Perez sat out a season this poorly, Lawson gets axed after two races.

Yuki either rises or... err... What exactly? Super track Linblad? Bring Hauger in from the cold? Dangle a very large carrot in front of Vettel?

Ultimately what Red Bull haven't got right, compared with Mercedes at their dominant best, is develop a car which is quick in anyone's hands, then dominant in a potential champion's. It bit them last year, it will kill them this year.

[mario]

The Lawson situation, to me, sums up Red Bull's lack of management consistency. Perez sat out a season this poorly, Lawson gets axed after two races.

Yuki either rises or... err... What exactly? Super track Linblad? Bring Hauger in from the cold? Dangle a very large carrot in front of Vettel?

Ultimately what Red Bull haven't got right, compared with Mercedes at their dominant best, is develop a car which is quick in anyone's hands, then dominant in a potential champion's. It bit them last year, it will kill them this year.

From Marko's comments about Red Bull being happy to throw away the WCC in favour of focussing on the WDC, through to Tsunoda's recent comments during an interview with Radio 5 Live of "In the end Red Bull Racing are focused on Max scoring a drivers' championship", everything at Red Bull seems to now be revolving around a mentality of Max or bust.

[Spectoremg]

So RB could still have 21 drivers in the 2nd car this season?

[CoopsII]

Has anybody any thoughts on what's happening at the FIA? Yet another top-level resignation recently as Ben Suluyem continues to try to keep an iron like grip on the organisation. A bit like every other president of the FIA, really, but let's not ask what the difference is this time

[mario]

Has anybody any thoughts on what's happening at the FIA? Yet another top-level resignation recently as Ben Suluyem continues to try to keep an iron like grip on the organisation. A bit like every other president of the FIA, really, but let's not ask what the difference is this time

There has also been the criticism raised by Robyn, the former CEO of the FIA, who has gone public with criticism of the FIA in the wake of Reid's resignation. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/ar ... l66wv234go

It seems that many of those who have been forced out were those whom Sulayem saw as trying to provide some sort of check on his power in the organisation. Sulayem only wants to be surrounded by those who say yes whenever he speaks, it seems - if you read the letter that Alberto Villarreal, the FIA General Manager wrote to Motorsport UK after Richard criticised the FIA for banning himself and Reid from meetings because they refused to sign the harsher NDA that the FIA is insisting on, it is incredibly sycophantic (with most of the letter devoted to singing the praises of Sulayem, rather than actually addressing the points that Richards had raised).

[dr-baker]

Alex Albon in a Williams is still somehow in the top 8 of the driver's championship. How?!

[Jarvis]

Alex Albon in a Williams is still somehow in the top 8 of the driver's championship. How?!

Amazing start to the season for him. I was not expecting him to outperform his new teammate, Carlos Sainz consistently.

[mario]

Alex Albon in a Williams is still somehow in the top 8 of the driver's championship. How?!

Amazing start to the season for him. I was not expecting him to outperform his new teammate, Carlos Sainz consistently.

Given so many were predicting Sainz would start dominating Albon right from the start, Albon has put in exactly the sort of performances he needed to silence those critics. If anything, Sainz has been looking a bit ragged in the opening races and faced more questions about his form instead.