Grand Prix Rejects

Posted: **10 Mar 2012, 17:42**

mario wrote:unfortunately, without knowing what exactly the teams were up to at the time it is hard to know what exactly Brabham did do that lead to such reliability problems in 1984, and whether the use of "exotic" fuels did contribute to that.

Thanks for your detailed reply.

Such a shame we won't know the details unless something like a former team member decides to shed further light on the matter. I guess as long as the public at large is not asking questions about Brabham. Then there is little reason for the true details behind circumstances like what we have discussed above, to be known. Perhaps us members of F1 rejects can start an internet movement, or something similar, calling for the truth to be brought into the public's attention. After all it would be against Bernie & his former team. :lol:

For what it is worth, I've found another situation which might or might not be comparable to what we have discussed.

During the BBC commentary for the 1992 Portguese GP both James Hunt & Jonathan Palmer commented, in some detail on how Williams were especially concerned about their Renault RS4 engine reliability after changing the type of fuel they were using (IIRC from a specially brew mix to a standard pump fuel).

Patrick Head confirmed this to Jonathan Palmer & stated that the different fuel was causing increased vibration problems with their engine, hence their reliability concerns at that race. In fact Head stated he wasn't 100% sure they were going to make the finish as a result.

The exact explaination, which is too complicated for me unfortnately, of Williams problems can be found on this utube video of the race; at precisely 1.35.00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnf1jHAnAlE

As I know very little of how engines work, I don't know how comparable this example may be with the Brabham case. Perhaps you (or someone else who is techincally gifted) will be better able to ascertain whether their are any parallels that can be drawn from these two cases?

Given the differences between the two types of fuels & engines in question. Not least the fact that the Renualt engine was normally aspirated whereas the BMW was turbo charged of course. I suspect there is little comparison of the specific details of both cases. But I thought it would be best to check with you in any case.

Nonetheless I think what Palmer said when he sums up his report on Renualt fuel reliability concerns is interesting. Which is..."it does go to show just what a delicate balance the engineering is". So it seems to me to be reasonable to think perhaps the use of "exotic" fuels would disrupt this 'delicate engineering balance'. Particularly with the ban on refueling during races in 1984, given what you have said above. Of course the question is to what extent?

Posted: **10 Mar 2012, 23:11**

Bruno Senna is more talented than RRMMNNN GGGGRRRRSSJJJNNNN

Posted: **11 Mar 2012, 12:32**

ibsey wrote:Nonetheless I think what Palmer said when he sums up his report on Renualt fuel reliability concerns is interesting. Which is..."it does go to show just what a delicate balance the engineering is". So it seems to me to be reasonable to think perhaps the use of "exotic" fuels would disrupt this 'delicate engineering balance'. Particularly with the ban on refueling during races in 1984, given what you have said above. Of course the question is to what extent?

Ah, that is a slightly different problem - the problem is that V10 engines are not mechanically balanced which results in vibrational problems, and that would be complicated in the case of the Renault V10 because it used a 67º bank angle. It's a problem that has cropped up a fair few times before - the TAG-Porsche engine in the 1980's had a similar problem, where Porsche had to compensate for the unusual bank angle (80º in that case) with an unevenly spaced firing order.
In the case of the Renault engine, I would presume that they changed the ignition timing to compensate for the way that the fuel-air mixture burned in the combustion chamber, and I guess that in turn would have changed the mechanical balance of the engine, causing the vibrational problems they mentioned in that clip.

Posted: **11 Mar 2012, 15:10**

mario wrote:
ibsey wrote:Nonetheless I think what Palmer said when he sums up his report on Renualt fuel reliability concerns is interesting. Which is..."it does go to show just what a delicate balance the engineering is". So it seems to me to be reasonable to think perhaps the use of "exotic" fuels would disrupt this 'delicate engineering balance'. Particularly with the ban on refueling during races in 1984, given what you have said above. Of course the question is to what extent?

Ah, that is a slightly different problem - the problem is that V10 engines are not mechanically balanced which results in vibrational problems, and that would be complicated in the case of the Renault V10 because it used a 67º bank angle. It's a problem that has cropped up a fair few times before - the TAG-Porsche engine in the 1980's had a similar problem, where Porsche had to compensate for the unusual bank angle (80º in that case) with an unevenly spaced firing order.
In the case of the Renault engine, I would presume that they changed the ignition timing to compensate for the way that the fuel-air mixture burned in the combustion chamber, and I guess that in turn would have changed the mechanical balance of the engine, causing the vibrational problems they mentioned in that clip.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Posted: **27 May 2012, 21:27**

Vettel has been the best driver this year. If he could find his qualifying form from last year again he'd be dominating the championship by now.

Posted: **27 May 2012, 21:32**

kostas22 wrote:Vettel has been the best driver this year. If he could find his qualifying form from last year again he'd be dominating the championship by now.

Politely disagree. The only thing stopping Alonso from having more than 100 points so far is Ferrari's lack of one-lap pace.

Posted: **27 May 2012, 22:05**

Sebastien Bourdais was good, just unlucky.

Posted: **27 May 2012, 22:07**

darkapprentice77 wrote:Sebastien Bourdais was good, just unlucky.

He was decent in 2008. His penalty at the Japanese Grand Prix was daylight robbery, worst officiating I've ever seen in my 8 and a bit years of watching F1.

Posted: **28 May 2012, 01:04**

redbulljack14 wrote:
darkapprentice77 wrote:Sebastien Bourdais was good, just unlucky.

He was decent in 2008. His penalty at the Japanese Grand Prix was daylight robbery, worst officiating I've ever seen in my 8 and a bit years of watching F1.

That and he was terribly unlucky at Monza - qualified 4th but I think he stalled or something on the formation lap, and had to start a lap down, which was a great shame as he wound up posting the fastest lap.

Posted: **28 May 2012, 02:02**

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
darkapprentice77 wrote:Sebastien Bourdais was good, just unlucky.

He was decent in 2008. His penalty at the Japanese Grand Prix was daylight robbery, worst officiating I've ever seen in my 8 and a bit years of watching F1.

That and he was terribly unlucky at Monza - qualified 4th but I think he stalled or something on the formation lap, and had to start a lap down, which was a great shame as he wound up posting the fastest lap.

Spa was almost as heart-breaking. By deciding to stay out on slicks when intermediate tyres were the best choice, he went from a podium place down to 8th on the final lap, which led to this very 'honest' interview afterwards:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olUlAHC3 ... ata_player

It's a shame 2009 just never happened for him.

Posted: **30 May 2012, 22:14**

Sauber are not boring and Monisha Kalternborn is going to be the best Team Principal on the grid next year
Even though Williams have got a win, I still think they are on the slide
Mahhhhk Webbah should either accept that he is number two at Red Bull, or go elsewhere. Either way he should stop whining. I can't understand the British press's love for him at all
I would dearly love to see Maria Di Villota in a race seat, and I hope she has a hunky bloke to hold her grid board instead of a pit babe.
Paul di Resta is an OK driver but nothing more. So is Button.
Kimi Raikonnen is overrated
Vettel (and possibly Alguersuari) aside, I don't think Toro Rosso are the best judge of new talent.

Posted: **30 May 2012, 23:44**

Gary Paffet will never get a F1 drive.
Buemi and Alguersuari are overrated but they still shoudn't have been sacked.

Posted: **31 May 2012, 10:37**

LellaLombardi wrote:Even though Williams have got a win, I still think they are on the slide

I really, really, really hope you're wrong about this. Onwards and upwards!

LellaLombardi wrote:I would dearly love to see Maria Di Villota in a race seat, and I hope she has a hunky bloke to hold her grid board instead of a pit babe.

Most people here can guess my opinion on this subject. Not only Maria di Villota but Susie Wolff too. Oh, and Pippa Mann too!

Posted: **31 May 2012, 12:12**

dr-baker wrote:
LellaLombardi wrote:I would dearly love to see Maria Di Villota in a race seat, and I hope she has a hunky bloke to hold her grid board instead of a pit babe.

Most people here can guess my opinion on this subject. Not only Maria di Villota but Susie Wolff too. Oh, and Pippa Mann too!

Hmm, no NEW F1 champions in that lot :lol:

Also, Pastor Maldonados win in Spain was a fluke.

Posted: **31 May 2012, 14:56**

CoopsII wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
LellaLombardi wrote:I would dearly love to see Maria Di Villota in a race seat, and I hope she has a hunky bloke to hold her grid board instead of a pit babe.

Most people here can guess my opinion on this subject. Not only Maria di Villota but Susie Wolff too. Oh, and Pippa Mann too!

Hmm, no NEW F1 champions in that lot

Likely as that is, how can you be so sure?

EDIT: By the way, this is NOT the new F1 champions thread. This is merely a list of drivers that we would like to see in the sport and might be considered an unpopular opinion!

Posted: **31 May 2012, 18:28**

CoopsII wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
LellaLombardi wrote:I would dearly love to see Maria Di Villota in a race seat, and I hope she has a hunky bloke to hold her grid board instead of a pit babe.

Most people here can guess my opinion on this subject. Not only Maria di Villota but Susie Wolff too. Oh, and Pippa Mann too!

Also, Pastor Maldonados win in Spain was a fluke.

Maldonado's win in Spain is eerily reminiscent of Fisichella's performance for Force India at Spa in 2009. The car was a typical midfield runner but the way it was designed, built and set-up, along with a particular driver, turned it into a monster on a certain track. Fisichella only failed to win Spa because Kimi's Ferrari had KERS and Fisi didn't. Maldonado actually won Spain by pitting first, and only because of that.

Posted: **31 May 2012, 18:33**

AdrianSutil wrote:Fisichella only failed to win Spa because Kimi's Ferrari had KERS and Fisi didn't. Maldonado actually won Spain by pitting first, and only because of that.

Well, that statement falls flat once you consider Alonso had DRS - and yes, in the later stages he had it virtually every lap - which pretty much outperforms KERS as far as advantage given. What, in my opinion, truly won Maldonado the race in Spain - and is part of the reason it impresses me the way it does - was absolute and undoubted mastery of turns 13, 14, 15 and 16 because pretty much every lap boiled down to Alonso gaining ground in the first sector due to DRS and Maldonado regaining that advantage in said corners.

Posted: **31 May 2012, 18:43**

Nico Hulkenberg's Brazil 2010 pole was a fluke, I don't a gree with this one but my brother does...

Posted: **31 May 2012, 18:58**

Klon wrote:
AdrianSutil wrote:Fisichella only failed to win Spa because Kimi's Ferrari had KERS and Fisi didn't. Maldonado actually won Spain by pitting first, and only because of that.

Well, that statement falls flat once you consider Alonso had DRS - and yes, in the later stages he had it virtually every lap - which pretty much outperforms KERS as far as advantage given. What, in my opinion, truly won Maldonado the race in Spain - and is part of the reason it impresses me the way it does - was absolute and undoubted mastery of turns 13, 14, 15 and 16 because pretty much every lap boiled down to Alonso gaining ground in the first sector due to DRS and Maldonado regaining that advantage in said corners.

Without the DRS zone, do you think Alonso would've been anywhere near Maldonado? And anyway, it's very difficult to closely follow another car through the final sector of twisty low-speed corners unless the car ahead has tyre degredation issues. And as Maldonado had a clear track ahead of him as he was leading, it was Alonso's tyres that went off first. Hence why the pitstop won the race as it put Maldonado ahead.

I'm not going to deny Maldonado drove a blinding race, but that performance will NEVER be repeated again sadly. So it was a fluke.

Posted: **31 May 2012, 19:01**

eurobrun wrote:Gary Paffet will never get a F1 drive.
Buemi and Alguersuari are overrated but they still shoudn't have been sacked.

Wow! Don't rock the boat man! :lol:

Posted: **31 May 2012, 21:27**

Im convinced something is going on in f1..... dark and mysterious forces are at work conspiring that no driver will get more than 1 race win...... so every team apart from HRT and force india( it would of been marussia but F.I. missed that practice session and will be punished.....) will win a race this year

Posted: **31 May 2012, 21:43**

darkapprentice77 wrote:Nico Hulkenberg's Brazil 2010 pole was a fluke, I don't a gree with this one but my brother does...

Whether or not it was, I jumped in the air in extreme celebration. Not as much as Maldonado's victory mind you.

Posted: **31 May 2012, 22:15**

redbulljack14 wrote:
darkapprentice77 wrote:Nico Hulkenberg's Brazil 2010 pole was a fluke, I don't a gree with this one but my brother does...

Whether or not it was, I jumped in the air in extreme celebration. Not as much as Maldonado's victory mind you.

Can't blame you. The last time such underdog won a race was Fisichella in 2003 (I think). And he wasn't even a reject who was racing for a team without victories for 8 years. Too much epicness that day.

Posted: **31 May 2012, 22:20**

darkapprentice77 wrote:Nico Hulkenberg's Brazil 2010 pole was a fluke, I don't a gree with this one but my brother does...

The weather was but the pole certainly was not, the Williams was excellent in the wet (Barrichello P6) and Hulkenberg set two lap times that were a second per lap faster then everyone else. Hulkenberg was on the same tires as everybody else and he wasn't the last car either, he set his pole lap that was unbeaten despite the best efforts of Vettel and Hamilton. What more can you want?

Posted: **31 May 2012, 22:54**

dr-baker wrote:
LellaLombardi wrote:Even though Williams have got a win, I still think they are on the slide

I really, really, really hope you're wrong about this. Onwards and upwards!

It is far to say, though, that Maldonado and Bruno have generally failed to capitalise on the full performance of the FW34 - Maldonado might have taken a victory, true, but at the same time he threw away 8 points in Melbourne by pushing too hard and must have thrown away a similar amount of points in Monaco, probably more, with his recklessness at Monaco that cost him so dearly. As others have pointed out, Maldonado is still rather rough and ready at times (Perez would definitely agree with the "rough" part) and veers between brilliance and madness a bit too often.

As for Bruno Senna, he has the unfortunate knack of being unfortunate all too often - being hit by Massa in Melbourne, handling problems in Bahrain and being punted out of the race in Spain after a halfway decent recovery (he was in 8th at the time Schumacher crashed into him). It doesn't help that Bruno is constantly trying to claw his way up through the field because of his poor qualifying performance - he has been regularly outqualified by Maldonado this year, and is yet to make it into the top 10 once this season whilst Maldonado has managed that three times (even if Maldonado wasn't allowed to start in the top 10 in Monaco due to his grid penalties).

Equally, the Williams team itself has to take a certain amount of blame given that they haven't been the best strategists in the midfield this season - Force India have been arguably much better in that respect, with both Hulkenberg and Di Resta making their way into the points on a much more regular basis than Williams despite having an inferior car. Williams might be in 6th at the moment, where some would argue they probably lie on balance, but they could be much further ahead of Sauber and fairly close to Mercedes if they hadn't thrown away as many points as they have.

Posted: **01 Jun 2012, 06:48**

Martin Whitmarsh aint a patch on Ron Dennis. Perhaps this isnt massively unpopular though....

Posted: **02 Jun 2012, 10:46**

Sergio Perez can do nothing with his car, Milka Duno is much better than him

Posted: **02 Jun 2012, 12:48**

aliefbielefeld wrote:Sergio Perez can do nothing with his car, Milka Duno is much better than him

This seems more like a complete fabrication than an actual opinion. I mean, Milk and Donuts? Better than Perez? That'd take quite some doing to prove.

Posted: **02 Jun 2012, 12:56**

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
aliefbielefeld wrote:Sergio Perez can do nothing with his car, Milka Duno is much better than him

This seems more like a complete fabrication than an actual opinion. I mean, Milk and Donuts? Better than Perez? That'd take quite some doing to prove.

Unless the criteria is being as totally rejectful as possible...

Posted: **02 Jun 2012, 14:58**

aliefbielefeld wrote:Sergio Perez can do nothing with his car, Milka Duno is much better than him

Yes, nearly putting a Sauber in the lead is nothing [/sarcasm]

Posted: **02 Jun 2012, 18:35**

JeremyMcClean wrote:
aliefbielefeld wrote:Sergio Perez can do nothing with his car, Milka Duno is much better than him

Yes, nearly putting a Sauber in the lead is nothing [/sarcasm]

He did lead the Sauber at Malaysia remember? Which makes the statement about Duno all the more stupid *bangs head on desk*

Posted: **02 Jun 2012, 18:46**

aliefbielefeld wrote:Sergio Perez can do nothing with his car, Milka Duno is much better than him

Posted: **02 Jun 2012, 23:33**

AdrianSutil wrote:
JeremyMcClean wrote:
aliefbielefeld wrote:Sergio Perez can do nothing with his car, Milka Duno is much better than him

Yes, nearly putting a Sauber in the lead is nothing [/sarcasm]

He did lead the Sauber at Malaysia remember? Which makes the statement about Duno all the more stupid *bangs head on desk*

Posted: **03 Jun 2012, 09:40**

I think that it is safe to say that aliefbielefeld's suggestion fulfilled the "unpopular" criterion, although there is a difference between unpopular opinions with a valid basis and an unpopular opinion for the sake of being unpopular...

Posted: **03 Jun 2012, 11:07**

pasta_maldonado wrote:
aliefbielefeld wrote:Sergio Perez can do nothing with his car, Milka Duno is much better than him

'Various facepalm images'

You forgot to use this one. (WARNING - Not Suitable For WMetcalf)

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Triple_53d763_598729.jpg

:lol:

Posted: **03 Jun 2012, 11:19**

East Londoner wrote:http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Triple_53d763_598729.jpg

will aliefbielefeld ever gain his respect back?

Posted: **04 Jun 2012, 01:44**

If the BAR's in 1999 were more reliable they could've scored a few points or even a podium.

Posted: **04 Jun 2012, 02:13**

darkapprentice77 wrote:If the BAR's in 1999 were more reliable they could've scored a few points or even a podium.

Pretty certain that's a fact. Just off-hand I recall Villeneuve was on for 5th before the car broke down.

Posted: **04 Jun 2012, 04:21**

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
darkapprentice77 wrote:If the BAR's in 1999 were more reliable they could've scored a few points or even a podium.

Pretty certain that's a fact. Just off-hand I recall Villeneuve was on for 5th before the car broke down.

Would've defienetly scored at Australia, Spain, Imola maybe, Nurburgring too. Didn't he record his first classified finish at Spa?! Awful reliability for a team 'that would win the first race'.

Posted: **04 Jun 2012, 20:18**

I doubt this is an unpopular opinion, but I'll post it anyway - Jacques should have abandoned BAR after 1999 and try and recover his career.

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