The HRT thread

[TomWazzleshaw]

It looks more certain now that Narain will be back in one of the cars for the Indian GP as he has secured sponsorship from the local Hero (sic) Motor Co. (Reported by JS, Autosport & F1 Fanatic).
Who will he replace? Might the Red Bull/STR deal in respect of Ricciardo mean Liuzzi might have to stand down?

Probably. Besides Liuzzi will be at the Gold Coast the weekend before the Indian GP anyway.

They're rumoured to be after Schumacher for the 600 as well. Does that mean he won't turn up in Delhi too? Just when you thought you'd see the last of Nick Heidfeld......

Schumacher in a tintop eh? If that were to come to fruition something tells me he might just outdo Villeneuve's 'efforts' last year

[eagleash]

Probably. Besides Liuzzi will be at the Gold Coast the weekend before the Indian GP anyway.

They're rumoured to be after Schumacher for the 600 as well. Does that mean he won't turn up in Delhi too? Just when you thought you'd see the last of Nick Heidfeld......

Schumacher in a tintop eh? If that were to come to fruition something tells me he might just outdo Villeneuve's 'efforts' last year

Only saw a headline. Could be Ralf I guess. Even so........

[cbbcisace]

Well travelled F1 designer Jorg Zander was spotted with the HRT team at Monza, and the German is believed to have agreed to join the Spanish-owned outfit as well as Jose Gallego Segura who worked with McLaren before.

[David AGS]

Could be possible, Designer Paul White and Zander worked together at Brawn

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

Well travelled F1 designer Jorg Zander was spotted with the HRT team at Monza, and the German is believed to have agreed to join the Spanish-owned outfit as well as Jose Gallego Segura who worked with McLaren before.

I'm lovin' it!

[solarcold]

HRT to break with Cosworth and sign Renault motors.

[DanielPT]

HRT to break with Cosworth and sign Renault motors.

Is this true? Isn't HRT and Virgin the last of the Cosworths?

[dr-baker]

HRT to break with Cosworth and sign Renault motors.

Is this true? Isn't HRT and Virgin the last of the Cosworths?

Is there a source?

[cbbcisace]

Yes HRT are believed to be agreeing a deal to use Renault engines for 2012 and on.

Plus the team would be taken over by Barwa Addax and relocated to Valencia, with Charles Pic, Grosjean and Van Der Garde in the frame to drive for them next year.

[Nessafox]

Yes

I think his question wasn't literally 'is there a source' but he meant 'what is the source'

[dr-baker]

Yes

I think his question wasn't literally 'is there a source' but he meant 'what is the source'

Well, exactly, and now I have found reference to it myself in an AUTOSPORT article.

[Peter]

Makes sense, as Renault has said a lot that they intend to expand their engine market. I do believe that they got Williams and probably are attracting HRT as well because they may be offering engines at a discount, or a lower price, so as to succeed in such expansion.

The biggest loser here will be Cosworth. They already lost Lotus, are about to lose Williams, and maybe even more. Williams was their flagship team really, the team they turned to for engine advice, so now they are in a really bad position, losing customers. I'd much like to see HRT be the sole team left with Cosworth engines, maybe being the flagship team would give them some sort of benefits that being 1 out of 5 teams with a Renault engine wouldn't give.

[AdrianSutil]

Could be a good move for everyones favourite reject team. Got a sneaky feeling that guarantees Ricciardo in the car for next year.

[mario]

Makes sense, as Renault has said a lot that they intend to expand their engine market. I do believe that they got Williams and probably are attracting HRT as well because they may be offering engines at a discount, or a lower price, so as to succeed in such expansion.

The biggest loser here will be Cosworth. They already lost Lotus, are about to lose Williams, and maybe even more. Williams was their flagship team really, the team they turned to for engine advice, so now they are in a really bad position, losing customers. I'd much like to see HRT be the sole team left with Cosworth engines, maybe being the flagship team would give them some sort of benefits that being 1 out of 5 teams with a Renault engine wouldn't give.

To be honest, the article is somewhat speculative, as neither side has really confirmed that an engine deal is being discussed, only that Renault would like to have more customers.

Having a Renault customer engine shouldn't really hurt HRT, and probably will strengthen them overall, since Renault do tend to be fairly even handed with their customers. That said, an engine deal with HRT will depend on a waiver from the FIA allowing the deal, since the regulations limit the manufacturers to supplying just four teams, including their own team.
True, the FIA probably will grant the waiver, but it has to be said that in doing so it is going to progressively drive Cosworth out of the sport, since I expect that MVR will look at switching engine supplier too (perhaps to Mercedes thanks to their tie in with McLaren, who might be able to broker such a deal). At the very least, it does increase the chances that Cosworth will leave F1 again when the turbo engines come back - with a dwindling customer base, where are they going to find the funds, and the customers, to justify developing a new engine?

[Klon]

That said, an engine deal with HRT will depend on a waiver from the FIA allowing the deal, since the regulations limit the manufacturers to supplying just four teams, including their own team.

Weren't there some admittedly silly rumours regarding Renault wishing to end the cooperation with Renault F1? If Bahar now gets his way and the team actually becomes Lotus, these rumours might get just a little bit more substance, therefore Lotus Cars could just be the saviour Cosworth needs. Although I would not bet a single cent on it, it would be that kind of irony I love.

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

Autosport reporting that Zander may very well be joining HRT.

But same article reports Geoff Willis possibly leaving? That'd be more than just bad, wouldn't it?

[Peter]

I think the article bases the idea of Willis leaving off of the fact that a new designer is joining the team. I call bs, especially since the possible plans for Willis to become team principal and Kolles to leave arose, this would be a very different way to go.

[eagleash]

It seems that the idea of a British based design office is to be abandoned; Zander is to join & the German operation expanded. Willis' services (& he was/is a consultant rather than an employee apparently), are therefore no longer required.

[DanielPT]

It seems that the idea of a British based design office is to be abandoned; Zander is to join & the German operation expanded. Willis' services (& he was/is a consultant rather than an employee apparently), are therefore no longer required.

Apparently they are following the whole Toyota "lets base our F1 team in Germany" idea. Oh dear...

[Captain Hammer]

Toyota's decision to base the team in Germany was not the sole cause of their problems. It might have made it harder to attract technical talent, but the physical location of the base did not lead to their lack of success.

[DanielPT]

Toyota's decision to base the team in Germany was not the sole cause of their problems. It might have made it harder to attract technical talent, but the physical location of the base did not lead to their lack of success.

I argue with that since, indirectly, it did. Or contributed. Toyota were known for having a relatively inexperienced team and the number 1 cause for that was because people refused to leave England and move to Germany. Pretty much every team that won or fought for the championship came either from Italy or from Great Britain with the sole exception being Matra, from France (Renault base is in Enstone). Obviously HRT goal is not to fight for the championship now or any time soon, but it might hurt their chances comparing to Virgin, Lotus and dare I say it, Williams, which are the closest teams.

[eagleash]

Toyota certainly under-achieved from the same base. But so also did Honda with a more traditional operation. It probably has more to do with "remoteness" &/or lines of communication/chain of command in those cases. Although in this technological age you might think that wouldn't be a problem.

In HRT's case wherever their base was, the result would probably be the same.

[Captain Hammer]

Toyota certainly under-achieved from the same base.

But they didn't under-achieve because of their base.

[eagleash]

Toyota certainly under-achieved from the same base.

But they didn't under-achieve because of their base.

Not the base itself perhaps; but the location thereof, maybe?

[Salamander]

Toyota certainly under-achieved from the same base.

But they didn't under-achieve because of their base.

Not the base itself perhaps; but the location thereof, maybe?

Toyota underachieved because they had no clue how to run an F1 team, and just assumed throwing barrels full of money would fix all their problems. The location of the base may not have helped, but it was not the major contributing factor to their lack of success.

[DanielPT]

Toyota certainly under-achieved from the same base. But so also did Honda with a more traditional operation. It probably has more to do with "remoteness" &/or lines of communication/chain of command in those cases. Although in this technological age you might think that wouldn't be a problem.

I don't think Honda underachieved since the World Championship winning Brawn GP car was made while they were still Honda. And they won a race in their first year, which is more than can be said about Toyota. Both Honda and Toyota used the same chain of command and communications, thrown lots of money into their operations and one was based in Brackley and the other in Köln. Yet Honda was more successful despite Nick Fry, so their base location certainly had to influence something, if only the difficult to obtain success.

[eagleash]

Toyota certainly under-achieved from the same base. But so also did Honda with a more traditional operation. It probably has more to do with "remoteness" &/or lines of communication/chain of command in those cases. Although in this technological age you might think that wouldn't be a problem.

I don't think Honda underachieved since the World Championship winning Brawn GP car was made while they were still Honda. And they won a race in their first year, which is more than can be said about Toyota. Both Honda and Toyota used the same chain of command and communications, thrown lots of money into their operations and one was based in Brackley and the other in Köln. Yet Honda was more successful despite Nick Fry, so their base location certainly had to influence something, if only the difficult to obtain success.

Yes they won a race in their first year as Honda (per se) & that year seemed reasonably promising. But 2007 & 2008 were not so good. 8th (6pts) & 9th (14pts) in the constructors Championship & in 2007 Rubens didn't score a point all year. Not a great level of success for one of the World's premier motor manufacturers with a good record in other forms of motorsport. The Brawn GP car may have been on Ross' drawing board during 2008 but I suspect it had little Honda influence & in the end no Honda power. It should also be mentioned that Honda had something like a 45% stake in the BAR-Honda effort which was not greatly successful either.
In the end the reason Honda pulled out really came down to lack of success.

[DemocalypseNow]

Honda screwing everything over was their management structure, everything that happened in Brackley had to be checked over and approved by management in Tochigi. Basically they fell for an all too common mistake of not giving subordinates enough control. I believe Toyota did the same as well, HQ in Japan was always making decisions while disregarding what was going on in Cologne. Compare this to Ferrari - the F1 team and the car manufacturing arms of the business are still located within about a mile of each other. They don't have a bunch of suits looking at some financial and performance data from a 78th floor executive office making the biggest decisons for them.

Although,regarding Toyota, I'd probably say that was more down to their very conservative approach, they didn't like taking risks with their design or strategy or their drivers or...well, anything.

But back to HRT, if they were to move into a proper factory in Germany that's no bad thing. The key is having the right people make the right decisions. Get rid of Kolles, he's the Del Boy of F1. Red Bull took time to bring in the right people - Newey is not the only staff member they poached from the existing big teams before they became title contenders.

The best metaphor for HRT I can think of right now is football - Man United and McLaren are very successful teams, who have managed such a feat thanks to a very organised infrastrucure in both teams, but HRT don't really look to have a proper stucture of any sort in place right now; it's like managing Southend United and telling the Starting XI to all play free roles - there is absolutely no way that can end well.

[eagleash]

Honda screwing everything over was their management structure, everything that happened in Brackley had to be checked over and approved by management in Tochigi. Basically they fell for an all too common mistake of not giving subordinates enough control. I believe Toyota did the same as well, HQ in Japan was always making decisions while disregarding what was going on in Cologne. Compare this to Ferrari - the F1 team and the car manufacturing arms of the business are still located within about a mile of each other. They don't have a bunch of suits looking at some financial and performance data from a 78th floor executive office making the biggest decisons for them.

Yep "chain of command".

[mario]

That said, an engine deal with HRT will depend on a waiver from the FIA allowing the deal, since the regulations limit the manufacturers to supplying just four teams, including their own team.

Weren't there some admittedly silly rumours regarding Renault wishing to end the cooperation with Renault F1? If Bahar now gets his way and the team actually becomes Lotus, these rumours might get just a little bit more substance, therefore Lotus Cars could just be the saviour Cosworth needs. Although I would not bet a single cent on it, it would be that kind of irony I love.

Interestingly, Boullier has confirmed in a recent interview that Cosworth have already contacted the Renault team with an eye to replacing Renault as the engine deal between Genii and Renault Sport is due to expire soon - though it seems that Boullier wants to continue with Renault engines instead of gambling on a switch to Cosworth.

Boullier has also said his team is on the verge of extending its engine partnership with Renault, despite having been linked with Cosworth earlier this year.

"We are very close, but I cannot tell you more," he said. "We have a historical relationship, we have a close technical relationship and there is [oil sponsor] Total mixed in the middle of this, so there are some commercial reasons why we should stick with Renault."
When asked about the Cosworth situation, Boullier said: "You always have to have a B-plan and a C-plan, and yes we have been approached by Cosworth, because they have lost customers. They are talking to everyone in the pitlane I guess, or nearly everybody, but there are no plans so far."

Back to HRT, and the possibility of an engine deal with Renault - were that to happen, it seems that they would have to arrange a deal with Boullier as well as Renault Sport and Magnetti Marelli:

Boullier also suggested that a KERS technology share plan being put together between all the Renault-powered teams was dependent on his outfit.

"We own some of the IP on the KERS because we have designed it. The know-how is in Enstone, and we are discussing transferring it all together to make the best overall unit."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94571

Honda screwing everything over was their management structure, everything that happened in Brackley had to be checked over and approved by management in Tochigi. Basically they fell for an all too common mistake of not giving subordinates enough control. I believe Toyota did the same as well, HQ in Japan was always making decisions while disregarding what was going on in Cologne. Compare this to Ferrari - the F1 team and the car manufacturing arms of the business are still located within about a mile of each other. They don't have a bunch of suits looking at some financial and performance data from a 78th floor executive office making the biggest decisons for them.

Although,regarding Toyota, I'd probably say that was more down to their very conservative approach, they didn't like taking risks with their design or strategy or their drivers or...well, anything.

Certainly, as far as Toyota was concerned, their overly cautious approach seems to have been one of the main things that hindered them, coupled to a somewhat insular design team. After all, one of the few years in which they had a more radical design, which was their 2009 challenger that was amongst one of the few cars to feature an early DDD, was due to the fact that a new designer had brought the idea of a DDD from Super Aguri to Toyota.

That said, Toyota's Motorsport Group wasn't lacking in talent or resources - though the F1 team is long gone, the site in Cologne is still very active as Toyota has turned their former racing team into a consultancy group in effect, offering their facilities and staff to other teams with considerable success - so much so that, when Ferrari hit problems earlier this year with their wind tunnel, it was to Toyota's facilities (which still has one of the most sophisticated wind tunnels out of the current and former teams available for use) that they turned to validate their designs. McLaren, too, turned to Toyota's facilities in 2010 when their own resources were a little stretched between work on their 2011 can and development of the 2010 car - so, if nothing else, as a consultant Toyota seems to be having more success than they had on the track in their own right.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Karthikeyan to return for Indian Grand Prix

My money is on that he'll replace Tonio since he has V8 Supercar duties to attend to.

[dr-baker]

The best metaphor for HRT I can think of right now is football - Man United and McLaren are very successful teams, who have managed such a feat thanks to a very organised infrastrucure in both teams, but HRT don't really look to have a proper stucture of any sort in place right now; it's like managing Southend United and telling the Starting XI to all play free roles - there is absolutely no way that can end well.

I had to smile when you mentioned Southend United - I've only ever watched one football match and that was Southend playing against Millwall a couple of years ago, and ended in a 0-0 draw. AND I got paid to watch it - I was accompanying a special-needs person there...

[David AGS]

Karthikeyan to return for Indian Grand Prix

My money is on that he'll replace Tonio since he has V8 Supercar duties to attend to.

But the V-8 race is between the two races (Korea and India) so I dont see an issue. But with HRT you just never know, he may be struck down with 'food poisoning'.

BTW, according to them, they have a few new developments; new engine cover, and new underfloor.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Karthikeyan to return for Indian Grand Prix

My money is on that he'll replace Tonio since he has V8 Supercar duties to attend to.

But the V-8 race is between the two races (Korea and India) so I dont see an issue. But with HRT you just never know, he may be struck down with 'food poisoning'.

BTW, according to them, they have a few new developments; new engine cover, and new underfloor.

Back to back isn't an issue. Back to back to back might be (Especially with the distance between the Gold Coast and Dehli).

[David AGS]

How far is it? 8 hours or so?

I dont think he will be in a cramped economy seat though. Id say will be first class all the way. Heat in India may be an issue to get used to though

[TomWazzleshaw]

How far is it? 8 hours or so?

12 hours at the very least (And that's not including a stopover at Singapore or Kuala Lumper.) This forms part of the basis for my argument as to why there should be direct flights between Australia and the sub-continent but that's an argument for another day

[Myrvold]

Not looking forward to the flight down to Australia (when I'm going down there).. I mean, a total flight time of 23 hours, and a travel that takes a bit over 30 hours in total -.-

[David AGS]

How far is it? 8 hours or so?

12 hours at the very least (And that's not including a stopover at Singapore or Kuala Lumper.) This forms part of the basis for my argument as to why there should be direct flights between Australia and the sub-continent but that's an argument for another day

Fair enough compatriot! It might be touch and go, but hey, he commited and it will be a major blow if he dont turn up to the V-8 race, so can understand your view

[the Masked Lapwing]

How far is it? 8 hours or so?

12 hours at the very least (And that's not including a stopover at Singapore or Kuala Lumper.) This forms part of the basis for my argument as to why there should be direct flights between Australia and the sub-continent but that's an argument for another day

Fair enough compatriot! It might be touch and go, but hey, he commited and it will be a major blow if he dont turn up to the V-8 race, so can understand your view

Maybe he'll get chicken pox

[Captain Hammer]

My money is on that he'll replace Tonio since he has V8 Supercar duties to attend to.

Yes, he does - the week before the Indian Grand Prix.

If Karthikeyan replaced Liuzzi and Chandhok got backing to race at Buddh, replacing Trulli (as Tony Fernandes has said would happen if he gets the drive), then there would be no Italians on the grid. When was the last time that happened?