HRT may not be on grid next year says Senna

[TomWazzleshaw]

There is hope though because Toyota might be stepping in to help them

[coops]

Toyota? That bastion of F1 excellence? The sky truly is the limit now.

[dr-baker]

There have been two comments to this news story about HRT not surviving to next year when reported at Autocar (the road-going magazine, sister publication to Autosport) and they are so unoriginal and not funny so I am going to repeat them here:

I'd better tell my Mum about this...HRT has been great for her.

Yeah, certainly been a big help to my marriage. Back to dodging the flying phone book if they put a stop to it.

[eagleash]

Bruno says that few teams can guarantee their place on the grid for next season & that HRT cannot give that guarantee. It is inevitable that teams will re assess their plans at season end. HRT certainly look the most vulnerable though. Rumours still persist about Renault. Personally I wonder about Force India & Sauber in the longer term.

On HRT here's what Rejects' very own Alianora has to say:-

http://formula1home.com.au/forum/weblog ... php?e=1006

(Sorry Alianora for nicking your work! Like you I wondered if Senna wasn't foot shooting somewhat.)

[gnrpoison]

I'm hoping they survive or at least are able to merge with a newcomer team to help last a few years. The more teams in F1 the better as we haven't had 26 cars participate since early 1995, 30 entrants since the 1992 season and would be good to have more teams. Heck if it was a possibility would love for Audi to partner with someone, Honda, BMW, Toyota all back as enginge suppliers just to help teams survive or be started. Obviously this is just a dream and won't happen. Just be nice to have loads of independant teams with engine supplier off a manufacture. Guessing though HRT will probably merge with Epsilon as the 13th spot still hasn't been decided. And with that spot it should be for 2012 with a year of assistance to create foundations that the teams can be sufficient so it doesnt run into trouble.

[eagleash]

I'm hoping they survive or at least are able to merge with a newcomer team to help last a few years. The more teams in F1 the better as we haven't had 26 cars participate since early 1995, 30 entrants since the 1992 season and would be good to have more teams. Heck if it was a possibility would love for Audi to partner with someone, Honda, BMW, Toyota all back as enginge suppliers just to help teams survive or be started. Obviously this is just a dream and won't happen. Just be nice to have loads of independant teams with engine supplier off a manufacture. Guessing though HRT will probably merge with Epsilon as the 13th spot still hasn't been decided. And with that spot it should be for 2012 with a year of assistance to create foundations that the teams can be sufficient so it doesnt run into trouble.

A merger may be a way forward. One with Epsilon would leave the 13th spot open for Durango/Villeneuve.

[Phoenix]

Guessing though HRT will probably merge with Epsilon as the 13th spot still hasn't been decided. And with that spot it should be for 2012 with a year of assistance to create foundations that the teams can be sufficient so it doesnt run into trouble.

That sound quite possible, and would give Hispania solidness while Epsilon would have a spot on the grid. I don't discard the possibility of Colin Kolles leaving Senna aside for the next race while they gladly leave the seat to Yawnamoto because Senna was talking trash of the team.

[AndreaModa]

My money's on an Epsilon/HRT merge, two small weak Spanish teams, if either are going to get to the grid next year, this surely has to be the way its going to be done.

And yeah, the path is free for...Villeneuve Racing! Yes!

[beetleman64]

It was annoying to hear Bernie Ecclestone write off all 12 teams being on the grid next year since, as you know, nothing happens in F1 without his blessing.

As for the others, I've heard that Sauber have got sponsors lined up so I think they'll be OK and Vijay Mallaya seems comitted to Force India. And as for Renault, well it's not wholly owned by Renault, so even if it meant a rename it'll probably be on the grid next year.

[F1000X]

Villeneuve Racing!

OH NO. NO.

[coops]

Anyway, his names not even Senna.

And Senna wasnt even called Senna, not really.

[thehemogoblin]

Anyway, his names not even Senna.

And Senna wasnt even called Senna, not really.

But they both used the same improper conventions in adopting Senna as their surname.

[coops]

Anyway, his names not even Senna.
And Senna wasnt even called Senna, not really.

But they both used the same improper conventions in adopting Senna as their surname.

Two wrongs dont make a right.

[thehemogoblin]

Anyway, his names not even Senna.
And Senna wasnt even called Senna, not really.

But they both used the same improper conventions in adopting Senna as their surname.

Two wrongs dont make a right.

Three lefts do.

[coops]

Three lefts do.

Im a little disappointed and surprised that you're making light of a flagrant mis-use of, you know, words and stuff.

[thehemogoblin]

Three lefts do.

Im a little disappointed and surprised that you're making light of a flagrant mis-use of, you know, words and stuff.

As much as I love grammar, I can never, ever, ever resist a good pun. I love plays on words.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Three lefts do.

Im a little disappointed and surprised that you're making light of a flagrant mis-use of, you know, words and stuff.

As much as I love grammar, I can never, ever, ever resist a good pun. I love plays on words.

Plays tend to be based on words because people kind of need to speak during performances...

God that was a horrible pun.

[coops]

As much as I love grammar, I can never, ever, ever resist a good pun. I love plays on words.

Fairy Nuff.

[eagleash]

Piquet wasn't Piquet either. He was something like Souto Major (J as Y). He adopted his Mother's maiden name or something so his family wouldn't known he was racing. Yeah that'll fool 'em.

Years later they didn't notice his son have an accident either. So clearly it never happened.

[coops]

Piquet wasn't Piquet either. He was something like Souto Major (J as Y). He adopted his Mother's maiden name or something so his family wouldn't known he was racing. Yeah that'll fool 'em.

This is getting silly. In any other job you'd get sacked for that. I dont know what to believe any more. Do you know of any more Eagleash? (if that is, in fact, your real name! )

[eagleash]

Piquet wasn't Piquet either. He was something like Souto Major (J as Y). He adopted his Mother's maiden name or something so his family wouldn't known he was racing. Yeah that'll fool 'em.

This is getting silly. In any other job you'd get sacked for that. I dont know what to believe any more. Do you know of any more Eagleash? (if that is, in fact, your real name! )

There are many drivers who have raced under a Nom de l'auto "Coops"

[thehemogoblin]

As much as I love grammar, I can never, ever, ever resist a good pun. I love plays on words.

Plays tend to be based on words because people kind of need to speak during performances...

God that was a horrible pun.

You've obviously never heard of interpretive dance.`

[TomWazzleshaw]

As much as I love grammar, I can never, ever, ever resist a good pun. I love plays on words.

Plays tend to be based on words because people kind of need to speak during performances...

God that was a horrible pun.

You've obviously never heard of interpretive dance.`

I have but I don't particually like it.

Improv is more my style really.

[mario]

Guessing though HRT will probably merge with Epsilon as the 13th spot still hasn't been decided. And with that spot it should be for 2012 with a year of assistance to create foundations that the teams can be sufficient so it doesnt run into trouble.

That sound quite possible, and would give Hispania solidness while Epsilon would have a spot on the grid. I don't discard the possibility of Colin Kolles leaving Senna aside for the next race while they gladly leave the seat to Yawnamoto because Senna was talking trash of the team.

If he did, it would be a fairly transparent act of petty revenge - most of the commentators are openly taking about Yamamoto being nothing but a pay driver (Brundle's comment of "Well, it's down to money isn't it?" when asked about Yamamoto's appearance at the German GP sums it up).
Given that the team only just scraped its way onto the grid, and has not really picked up any more sponsorship (whereas both Lotus Racing and Virgin Racing have found new sponsors this season), you almost expect the team to have financial difficulties, and they are now facing the even more challenging prospect of establishing themselves as a fully functioning team, now they cannot rely on Dallara to design and build their car (although they couldn't really rely on that this year either).
I wouldn't be surprised, though, if Bruno already knows that he will not drive at Spa, and Yamamoto was going to drive there instead - in that case, the risk is low, because the team probably can't afford to break his contract and sack him (which would mean that they'd need to pay off his contract), and frankly, given how hard the car is to drive, he might not miss being in the car for once...

Still, I do worry about the future prospects for the team. I fear that Bernie's comments about expecting a team or two to fail next year might not be that wide of the mark. After all, the fact that they are begging Toyota for parts for 2011 - which would have been developed for the TF110 - is not a good sign, as it indicates that they are struggling to design and build parts in house.

[Phoenix]

Not a surprise they're struggling to build their own parts. The fact they commisioned the design of the chassis to Dallara makes me think they didn't even have proper facilities to build their won cars, and even so, maybe they don't even have the money necessary to build a new car for 2011. BE said a bit ago he would try to help Hispania so they could survive, but maybe he was talking about helping them endure the season and not go beyond that. In any case, only a big injection of funds would help the team (because, thinking about it, merging with Epsilon Euskadi would only give them new facilities and some more stability, but money would still be a problem, unless Epsilon Euskadi has lined up some sponsors, which, frankly, I don't know). Crude future for Hispania, then, and Yamamoto's money won't be that big a help (after all, if there's something I learnt in this webpage, is that teams struggling for funding often go down in spite of having pay drivers).

[AndreaModa]

Not a surprise they're struggling to build their own parts. The fact they commisioned the design of the chassis to Dallara makes me think they didn't even have proper facilities to build their won cars, and even so, maybe they don't even have the money necessary to build a new car for 2011. BE said a bit ago he would try to help Hispania so they could survive, but maybe he was talking about helping them endure the season and not go beyond that. In any case, only a big injection of funds would help the team (because, thinking about it, merging with Epsilon Euskadi would only give them new facilities and some more stability, but money would still be a problem, unless Epsilon Euskadi has lined up some sponsors, which, frankly, I don't know). Crude future for Hispania, then, and Yamamoto's money won't be that big a help (after all, if there's something I learnt in this webpage, is that teams struggling for funding often go down in spite of having pay drivers).

Well there was that widely publicised criticism from Kolles at the start of the year that he arrived to find an empty factory with no cars from Dallara there. I bet it was an effort just to get the tools and equipment together to go racing.

Being a Basque team, it wouldn't surprise me if Epsilon had some financial backing of one form or another, the province's main telecoms company sponsors the Basque ProTour cycling team (Euskatel Euskadi) so I'd wager that other provincial companies would like to be involved. We know they can build their own machinery, whether it's competitive or not though is another thing.

I think that Hispania will 'join up' with Epsilon but what we'll see next year is perhaps the skeleton staff of this year's Hispania effort, with all the infrastructure and substance of the team being done by Epsilon. I know logic doesn't often apply in F1, but Bernie must know this must be the most logical thing to do, even if we don't get a 13th team, at least this way he can safeguard the current 12 teams for another season at least.

[mario]

Not a surprise they're struggling to build their own parts. The fact they commisioned the design of the chassis to Dallara makes me think they didn't even have proper facilities to build their won cars, and even so, maybe they don't even have the money necessary to build a new car for 2011. BE said a bit ago he would try to help Hispania so they could survive, but maybe he was talking about helping them endure the season and not go beyond that. In any case, only a big injection of funds would help the team (because, thinking about it, merging with Epsilon Euskadi would only give them new facilities and some more stability, but money would still be a problem, unless Epsilon Euskadi has lined up some sponsors, which, frankly, I don't know). Crude future for Hispania, then, and Yamamoto's money won't be that big a help (after all, if there's something I learnt in this webpage, is that teams struggling for funding often go down in spite of having pay drivers).

Certainly, when Kolles came in, he made it pretty clear that Campos had not only failed to get the equipment to build parts in house, but he had even failed to assemble a complete design team - so even if he wanted to, he couldn't actually design anything in house, let alone make it.

Since then, he has managed to find a few more experienced staff, but to be honest, I suspect that HRT is still suffering from a shortfall in numbers and machinery. If Kolles really did have a strong design team, and could manufacture everything in house, why would he be negotiating with Toyota to acquire parts from the TF110?
And the problem is not only in terms of equipment, but also personnel - you need highly skilled staff on the shop floor to produce the chassis components (the carbon fibre layup, autoclaving etc.), machine metallic components, material scientists and so on. That sort of expertise will not come cheap - ok, with the resource restrictions for next year, a few of the bigger teams are likely to be shedding staff, but that is no good when you need them this year to design your car now.

As for Bernie, my suspicion is that what he would probably do is advance their share of the TV revenues, so the team was paid before the end of the season. There is a precedence for this - Williams have received money in advance, and we saw that Renault also asked for some of their allocated money in advance a few months ago, so they could upgrade their facilities now instead of having to wait until the end of the season (although I do not know what happened after their request). The question is, how much money are they likely to receive if Bernie was to bring forwards payments?
According to this article by Joe Saward http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/06/ ... than-10th/ (sorry, Captain, if you're reading, but I just happened to remember that he gave the figures for how much the new teams can get), there is a fund set aside exclusively for the new teams, which contains $30 million. That means that, assuming the money is split evenly between the new teams, that they are likely to get, at most, $10 million, plus perhaps a few million more if they finish in 11th place in the constructors. Even so, to keep the team running, they are likely to need something in the order of £30 - 40 million (or roughly $50 - $65 million at $1.55 to £1) - so what money they do get from FOM, it is unlikely to go that far.

Perhaps the best scenario would be for them to merge with Epsilon, who might hopefully bring a few more sponsors on board - because even though Yamamoto has brought a fair amount of money to the team so far, his wallet is unlikely to be large enough to afford the major investment the team is going to need if it wants to stay on, let alone improve. As AndreaModa points out, what you'd probably end up with is essentially the Epsilon outfit clothed in HRT's branding, because behind the scenes, it seems that the HRT facilities are fairly empty...

[dr-baker]

Piquet wasn't Piquet either. He was something like Souto Major (J as Y). He adopted his Mother's maiden name or something so his family wouldn't known he was racing. Yeah that'll fool 'em.

This is getting silly. In any other job you'd get sacked for that. I dont know what to believe any more. Do you know of any more Eagleash? (if that is, in fact, your real name! )

There are many drivers who have raced under a Nom de l'auto "Coops"

I know this thread has already gone back on topic again but I just had to mention this driver. Although now I've looked at the first paragraph again, it's just getting the two halves of the name the wrong way round, rather than a "nom de conduire."

[coops]

I know this thread has already gone back on topic again but I just had to mention this driver. Although now I've looked at the first paragraph again, it's just getting the two halves of the name the wrong way round, rather than a "nom de conduire."

In his first legendary season Pedro Diniz inserted a 'Paulo' into the middle of his name before dropping it by seasons end.

[f1-gast]

I don't mind if HRT doesn't show up on the grid in 2011.
The team is just 2 slow.

And with a team manager as Kolles naah that's the guy who should get banned for life for any kind of autosport/motorsport.
He does it just for the money he will sell HRT, it's the same as with Jordan,Midland, and Spyker he just destroy it.

But senna should also leave the f1 he is just there because of his name, he isn't a great driver at all.

[coops]

But senna should also leave the f1 he is just there because of his name.

Somebodys name, at any rate.

[Phoenix]

I don't mind if HRT doesn't show up on the grid in 2011.
The team is just 2 slow.

And with a team manager as Kolles naah that's the guy who should get banned for life for any kind of autosport/motorsport.
He does it just for the money he will sell HRT, it's the same as with Jordan,Midland, and Spyker he just destroy it.

But senna should also leave the f1 he is just there because of his name, he isn't a great driver at all.

Let's see if he manages to sell it in the first place. I'm sceptic on that regard. And with such a poor car we still don't know if Bruno Senna is really a good driver or not.

[Myrvold]

And Chandock should leave, he's just there cause he is indian with money... Oh, Petrov too, he's there because of the money.

Really, I can't see anyone else than Yamamoto that maybe isn't deserving a spot in F1...

[Waris]

I don't mind if HRT doesn't show up on the grid in 2011.
The team is just 2 slow.

And with a team manager as Kolles naah that's the guy who should get banned for life for any kind of autosport/motorsport.
He does it just for the money he will sell HRT, it's the same as with Jordan,Midland, and Spyker he just destroy it.

But senna should also leave the f1 he is just there because of his name, he isn't a great driver at all.

Kolles can't sell HRT, since he doesn't own it. He didn't own or sell Jordan, Midland or Spyker either. Its owners sold it, and he just stayed on as team boss, until he was fired by Force India in 2008.

Also, I don't think you can say Senna isn't a great driver, I doubt you could make judgments about anyone's capabilities based on their performances in that car. If anything, I would say the stuff he's got going for him - quickly getting up to speed after not having driven cars for years and only restarting his career relatively late in life - would indicate he is in fact quite a good driver.

[mario]

I don't mind if HRT doesn't show up on the grid in 2011.
The team is just 2 slow.

And with a team manager as Kolles naah that's the guy who should get banned for life for any kind of autosport/motorsport.
He does it just for the money he will sell HRT, it's the same as with Jordan,Midland, and Spyker he just destroy it.

But senna should also leave the f1 he is just there because of his name, he isn't a great driver at all.

Kolles can't sell HRT, since he doesn't own it. He didn't own or sell Jordan, Midland or Spyker either. Its owners sold it, and he just stayed on as team boss, until he was fired by Force India in 2008.

Also, I don't think you can say Senna isn't a great driver, I doubt you could make judgments about anyone's capabilities based on their performances in that car. If anything, I would say the stuff he's got going for him - quickly getting up to speed after not having driven cars for years and only restarting his career relatively late in life - would indicate he is in fact quite a good driver.

Wise words there - Kolles was a team principal, not the team owner. That was the Midland Group, which was the company Alex Shnaider used to purchase the team, and most of the problems that the team had were due to a lack of funding, staff and really any interest in the sport from Schnaider (who appears to have lost interest in the team very soon after buying it), who basically starved the team of funding whilst he was searching for a buyer.
As for Spyker, that was always going to be an outstanding failure - the Spyker car company has only excelled in losing money hand over fist, small scale incompetence, and milking the taxpayer for handouts. The company has never turned a profit since it was founded in 1999, nor has it ever looked like it will make any money (their sales are barely into double figures), mainly because the managers are so ludicrously over ambitious that they take on projects which they simply cannot manage. By the time that they sold the team, Spyker F1 had run up debts of about $48 million, if I recall correctly - so Kolles couldn't have afforded to develop the car if he wanted.

Still, onto HRT. It seems that Bruno Senna is lamenting their woes even more, as he is now openly admitting that the team doesn't have any money to spend on upgrading the car, apart from upgrades which make the car more reliable. Furthermore, it appears that negotiations with Toyota are being hamstrung by the homologation restrictions that the FIA has brought in - because before HRT can use those parts, they must be homologated, and it seems that it is a slight sticking point. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85911
I think that the odds of Bruno Senna being dropped from the team for Spa have increased yet another notch - and, at this rate, I expect that Kolles might drop him for the rest of the season. Not that Chandhok should get his hopes up of a drive, either - it appears that Klien is angling for more seat time, and is hoping to participate in at least one race. http://en.espnf1.com/hrtf1/motorsport/s ... MP=OTC-RSS

You feel sorry for Chandhok and Senna - how can you improve when you are constantly being undermined by the management? Swapping out drivers like lightbulbs must be a problem for the engineers too - how can you consistently adjust the car for a driver, when you are not sure about the level of feedback and driving style of somebody you are unfamiliar with?

[Phoenix]

I think HRT has virtually given up any hopes of climbing up the order ever since the beginning of the season. They mainly aim to survive only, and that means they have to take Yamamoto because he brings money. However, I don't know if Klien is bringing money as well. So, HRT has no future unless they can find potential sponsors apart from the one the drivers are already bringing in. I can't do nothing but think that at least Senna would've been better in GP2 until better offers arose.

[TomWazzleshaw]

I think HRT has virtually given up any hopes of climbing up the order ever since the beginning of the season. They mainly aim to survive only, and that means they have to take Yamamoto because he brings money. However, I don't know if Klien is bringing money as well. So, HRT has no future unless they can find potential sponsors apart from the one the drivers are already bringing in. I can't do nothing but think that at least Senna would've been better in GP2 until better offers arose.

I'm pretty sure Klien used to have Red Bull money until their falling out between him and the team in 2006 but I'm not sure if he has any sponsors now.

[Phoenix]

I think HRT has virtually given up any hopes of climbing up the order ever since the beginning of the season. They mainly aim to survive only, and that means they have to take Yamamoto because he brings money. However, I don't know if Klien is bringing money as well. So, HRT has no future unless they can find potential sponsors apart from the one the drivers are already bringing in. I can't do nothing but think that at least Senna would've been better in GP2 until better offers arose.

I'm pretty sure Klien used to have Red Bull money until their falling out between him and the team in 2006 but I'm not sure if he has any sponsors now.

I guess if he had sponsors he may have had a race drive at this point.

[mario]

I think HRT has virtually given up any hopes of climbing up the order ever since the beginning of the season. They mainly aim to survive only, and that means they have to take Yamamoto because he brings money. However, I don't know if Klien is bringing money as well. So, HRT has no future unless they can find potential sponsors apart from the one the drivers are already bringing in. I can't do nothing but think that at least Senna would've been better in GP2 until better offers arose.

I half wonder if Bruno is thinking the same thing - if he had stayed in GP2, and been a championship contender (or even won the title), it might have given him a chance of landing a drive in a slightly better team - or, at the very least, next year, he could have entered with one of the better new teams (either Lotus or Virgin Racing, as they at least look as if they are not only interested in surviving, but improving their position - Lotus is already actively developing the 2011 car, and Virgin is working on both this years car and next years - and bear in mind that Virgin has got a budget which is only marginally bigger than HRT, it is rumoured).
On the other hand, at the time he signed for the team, he must have thought that the team had some potential - after all, he signed up when all was harmonious between Dallara and Campos (at the time), and it looked as if the team had reasonable backing.

[eagleash]

Senna thinking he might have made a duff decision? Really?
20/20 hindsight. A wonderful thing!