Massa to be arrested if he helps Alonso in Brazil

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 05 Nov 2010, 04:05

No, I'm not kidding.

I don't have an English-language link, but a prosecutor in Sao Paulo has said that if Felipe Massa helps Alonso during the Brazilian Grand Prix, he will be arrested on charges of fraud and conspiracy to commit fraud. Apparently there is a law in Brazil that protects the rights of spectators to see a fair sporting match; no doubt it was created to stamp out match-fixing in football. But this prosecutor has said that if Massa helps Alonso, he'll get arrested. The FIA might have conceded that the rule banning team orders is difficult to enforce, but until such time as it is changed, it is still the rule. And as that rule will be in force this weekend, team order will be illegal under Brazilian law.

Of course, I'm not expecting it to be a problem because I don't expect Massa to be in front of Alonso. But if he is and he yields a place to Alonso, getting arrested will really ruin Alonso's championship because it would be the championship tainted by criminal activity. However, last time Alonso was caught up in this sort of allegation - Singapore - he refused to renounce his victory. Part of me really hopes this will happen. It would be a nice bit of karma for Ferrari and the kind of crap they pull (I was very unimpressed when they said they would sure anyone who tried to penalse them for their little stunt in Germany).

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 05 Nov 2010, 04:52

Funny I was just learning about conspiracy the last couple days. At least under American law, the prosecutor will have a cause of action, though what exactly constitutes a "fair sporting event" will be an interesting argument.

Personally I think it's ridiculous, but I'm sure Brazilians take their country's sporting results very seriously. In the Baja SAE competition, you couldn't find a Brazilian team that didn't constantly have a Brazilian flag being waved around. And this was just at the collegiate motorsports level!

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 05 Nov 2010, 05:25

LionZoo wrote:though what exactly constitutes a "fair sporting event" will be an interesting argument.

Well, the sporting regulations ban the use of team orders. Therefore, any team that issues team orders will be in violation of the rule book, even if the FIA admitted it is a faulty rule. The teams still have to observe it until such time as the rule is changed. A team that breaks this rule and manipulates the outcome of a race can (possibly) be charged with fraud and conspiracy to commit fraud. It would not be considered a fair sporting event because it was manipulated.

muttley · Post by **muttley** » 05 Nov 2010, 06:10

If this happens (it won't), we can say goodbye to the Brazilian GP. I can foresee teams not wanting to run there anymore

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 05 Nov 2010, 06:15

muttley wrote:I can foresee teams not wanting to run there anymore

Ferrari might not want to race there, but I think the other teams would understand why it happened.

bighaydo · Post by **bighaydo** » 05 Nov 2010, 08:44

I think the last time that the local authorities meddled with the race weekend was in Australia in 2005 - Minardi received an injunction to run their cars to 2004-spec and all hell broke loose... they were threatening to take F1 away from Australia and all sorts.

Funny thing about this game - they'll take the governments money to run the thing, but woe betide if they want to have a say in how the event is run!!

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 05 Nov 2010, 11:49

This is ridiculous. What about 2007 then?

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 05 Nov 2010, 12:01

Ridiculous.

1) It's the FIA's job to police and punish team orders in F1 and no one else's.

2) Unless Ferrari are as blatant about it as they were in Germany, they won't be able to prove it. So they'll arrest Massa, set a court date, it won't be proven, Massa walks away. Waste of money and no Brazilian GP in future.

Ferrari might not want to race there, but I think the other teams would understand why it happened.

Irrelevant if the FIA and Ecclestone take exception to it. Which they will.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 05 Nov 2010, 12:16

Why is it ridiculous? In very many countries in the world it's illegal to manufacter a result, why should they get away with it, just because it is F1? That's like they have it in football. What you do in a match, don't seem to be covered by the normal law... (and for americans, I'm talking foot+ball, not eggball or anything like that

)

madmark1974 · Post by **madmark1974** » 05 Nov 2010, 12:27

I think it'd be great, to see a guy with a stinger (nail roll) on the pit wall, take Alonso out at the start of the last lap

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 05 Nov 2010, 12:38

For those that are still wanting to revive the blatant ferrari cheating rant (that list includes myself), we can do that until we're blue in the face, but whats done is done, and the best thing we can do is not forgive them...

...and that can be said for the many various occasions that ferrari have manipulated the many races and/or championships that they or their drivers have won or indeed attempted to win.

If this local punishment happens I'm pretty sure the FIA and or Bernie will pull the Brazilian GP from future calendars, which is in some ways a bad thing because it looks like the FIA will again be seen as protecting Ferrari, or a good thing because some people may think the venue is more of a joke than Korea.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 05 Nov 2010, 13:17

Myrvold wrote:Why is it ridiculous? In very many countries in the world it's illegal to manufacter a result, why should they get away with it, just because it is F1? That's like they have it in football. What you do in a match, don't seem to be covered by the normal law... (and for americans, I'm talking foot+ball, not eggball or anything like that )

It's ridiculous because a single season of F1 takes place across 18 different jurisdictions, with 18 different sets of sports-related fraud laws. The local judges pontificating on what does and doesn't constitute cheating in a race, and possibly administering jail time, fines, community service to differing degrees, will impact on consistency of punishments over a season. That's why one entity - the FIA, and no one else - should be responsible for determining what's cheating and what isn't, and acting on it. It's a bad idea to have the prospect of an arrest hanging over you for doing something in Brazil, but not in Germany.

What I'd liken this to is if you could be arrested and charged with assault for making a bad tackle in a game of football in one country and not in another. It's unworkable and fans wouldn't take it.

Also, I notice the only team discussed here is Ferrari. Is this prosecutor aware that McLaren have more or less stated that they'll 'favour' Hamilton if the race unfolds that way - which can only mean team orders or screwing up Jenson's strategy - and is he planning to arrest Button or Whitmarsh, if that's the case?

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 05 Nov 2010, 13:37

There's an early candidate for Reject of the Race.

Post by **mario** » 05 Nov 2010, 13:48

Enforcer wrote:
Myrvold wrote:Why is it ridiculous? In very many countries in the world it's illegal to manufacter a result, why should they get away with it, just because it is F1? That's like they have it in football. What you do in a match, don't seem to be covered by the normal law... (and for americans, I'm talking foot+ball, not eggball or anything like that )

It's ridiculous because a single season of F1 takes place across 18 different jurisdictions, with 18 different sets of sports-related fraud laws. The local judges pontificating on what does and doesn't constitute cheating in a race, and possibly administering jail time, fines, community service to differing degrees, will impact on consistency of punishments over a season. That's why one entity - the FIA, and no one else - should be responsible for determining what's cheating and what isn't. It's a bad idea to have the prospect of an arrest hanging over you for doing something in Brazil, but not in Germany.

What I'd liken this to is if you could be arrested and charged with assault for making a bad tackle in a game of football in one country and not in another. It's unworkable and fans wouldn't take it.

Also, I notice the only team discussed here is Ferrari. Is this prosecutor aware that McLaren have more or less stated that they'll 'favour' Hamilton if the race unfolds that way - which can only mean team orders or screwing up Jenson's strategy - and is he planning to arrest Button or Whitmarsh, if that's the case?

Not just Mclaren either (although Button has said that he is considering a more risky strategy anyway, because he has to do something different to try and win the race - so there is a certain amount of free choice in Button's decision). Over at Red Bull, Vettel has hinted that he would be prepared, if he was out of contention, to back Webber to ensure that a Red Bull driver beat Alonso to secure both titles for the team.

As for this story about the local authorities being prepared to arrest Massa if he takes part in team orders - frankly, I can't see it happening. It sounds more like a bit of showing off by an official intent on getting a bit of airtime, because unless Ferrari were spectacularly ham fisted with their order (which is unlikely), it would be quite difficult to prove in court.
Besides, as pointed out earlier, nobody cared less for team orders in 2007 when Massa slowed up on his in lap to let Kimi out ahead of him, to ensure that Kimi would take the title that year. Whilst Ferrari were careless with their order in Germany, to pick on them in that instance when other teams have used team orders to manipulate the finishing order and championship standings without anybody questioning them, seems a little hypocritical.

Are team orders OK as long as we are not told about them? Or as long as it isn't Ferrari or Alonso who benefit from them? Regardless of my own (somewhat ambivalent) opinions on team orders, I strongly suspect that there would be nowhere near the fuss there is now if it wasn't Alonso (who is, let us be honest, being portrayed in large sections of the press as a stereotypical villain) who benefitted...

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 05 Nov 2010, 13:54

This law exists as rightly stated above to deal with the question of match fixing in other sports.
In what other sport is it in any way illegal whether under the rules of the sport or jurispudence to assist a team mate?

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 05 Nov 2010, 15:07

Oh, please, Massa do it, let Alonso through. Arresting Massa, especially if they do it during the podium ceremony, would be awesome ... for Interlagos. The TV ratings would explode, ensuring the future of the Interlagos race for the next ten years and I would laugh about it for the next twenty.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 05 Nov 2010, 16:47

They surely had soccer in mind when they created this law.

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 05 Nov 2010, 18:00

Klon wrote:Oh, please, Massa do it, let Alonso through. Arresting Massa, especially if they do it during the podium ceremony, would be awesome ... for Interlagos. The TV ratings would explode, ensuring the future of the Interlagos race for the next ten years and I would laugh about it for the next twenty.

Think about the hits it would get on Youtube, a police officer marching on the podium to handcuff Massa and lead him away into a police van with millions watching at home and the bulbs on people's cameras going off everywhere. Sounds like something from a surrealist news program/comedy.

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 05 Nov 2010, 19:41

I am now imagining a keystone cop style chase in the pit lane....... :lol:

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 05 Nov 2010, 20:30

The cops are actually on my side for once!

LukeB · Post by **LukeB** » 05 Nov 2010, 21:13

I was thinking more Benny Hill.
Please please please please please.....

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 06 Nov 2010, 00:23

Enforcer wrote:1) It's the FIA's job to police and punish team orders in F1 and no one else's.

Sorry, but the drivers have to observe local laws. Hamilton was done in for hooning in Melbourne, and the Melbourne courts dealt with it. If Massa gets himself arrested, it will be because he broke a law. The FIA cannot simply step in and say "This is our job" because the FIA doesn't have jurisdiction.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 06 Nov 2010, 01:56

Captain Hammer wrote:
Enforcer wrote:1) It's the FIA's job to police and punish team orders in F1 and no one else's.

Sorry, but the drivers have to observe local laws. Hamilton was done in for hooning in Melbourne, and the Melbourne courts dealt with it. If Massa gets himself arrested, it will be because he broke a law. The FIA cannot simply step in and say "This is our job" because the FIA doesn't have jurisdiction.

If the governing body of the sport say "we are fine" with whatever the situation maybe it seems extremely unlikely that there would be any case to answer in the courts.

Also, (I've not been following things for a day or two), has this been reported anywhere other than the article referred to in the original post?

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 06 Nov 2010, 02:39

eagleash wrote:Also, (I've not been following things for a day or two), has this been reported anywhere other than the article referred to in the original post?

There was a small column in a newspaper this morning, but I haven't seen anything else.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 06 Nov 2010, 03:01

eagleash wrote:If the governing body of the sport say "we are fine" with whatever the situation maybe it seems extremely unlikely that there would be any case to answer in the courts.

But the FIA haven't said thy're fine with it. They have simply said that the rule needs clarification, and they have promised to review it. The actual rule itself banning team orders has not been removed from the sporting regulations, so the teams are obligated to observe it or else be taken to the WMSC.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 06 Nov 2010, 07:13

Captain Hammer wrote:
eagleash wrote:If the governing body of the sport say "we are fine" with whatever the situation maybe it seems extremely unlikely that there would be any case to answer in the courts.

But the FIA haven't said thy're fine with it. They have simply said that the rule needs clarification, and they have promised to review it. The actual rule itself banning team orders has not been removed from the sporting regulations, so the teams are obligated to observe it or else be taken to the WMSC.

The FIA are most unlikely to pursue any driver who moves over for a teammate in Brazil. However much some people may want Ferrari to run into trouble.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 06 Nov 2010, 11:41

Captain Hammer wrote:
Enforcer wrote:1) It's the FIA's job to police and punish team orders in F1 and no one else's.

Sorry, but the drivers have to observe local laws. Hamilton was done in for hooning in Melbourne, and the Melbourne courts dealt with it. If Massa gets himself arrested, it will be because he broke a law. The FIA cannot simply step in and say "This is our job" because the FIA doesn't have jurisdiction.

That's not comparable because it happened on a public road.

There are two questions here:

1) Whether the Brazilian courts have legal right to punish Massa (or Button, or Vettel, or Whitmarsh, or Horner or anyone) by means of fines, community service, possibly jail time if they deem him guilty of cheating.

The answer to that is they probably do. I'm not disputing that.

2) Is it good for F1 that local courts start doing that?

No it isn't, because as I said, you've got 18 different jurisdictions over an F1 season. That means 18 different sets of laws which may or may not be invoked, 18 different sets of guidelines on punishment for guilty parties etc. etc. That's the ridiculous part, and that's why the local courts should leave the FIA deal with cheating.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 06 Nov 2010, 11:51

Plain and simple, this is absurd because F1 is a sport that at times (despite what some people want to say) requires a sacrifice from a driver to help his team mate. You can't arrest someone for that. Are we getting crazy or what?

Libertango · Post by **Libertango** » 06 Nov 2010, 19:00

WTH? Is this "law" recent?

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 06 Nov 2010, 20:52

Most countries have this law, I find it funny that it haven't been a problem before...

IdeFan · Post by **IdeFan** » 06 Nov 2010, 23:44

Surely it would be up to the sport's governing body to decide whether it was team orders of the drivers personal decision. The distinction between the two is vague and largely subjective, and the only real "experts" on the matter are the FIA themselves.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 06 Nov 2010, 23:53

We can all see what a fantastic job FIA does

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 07 Nov 2010, 01:23

Enforcer wrote:2) Is it good for F1 that local courts start doing that?

No it isn't, because as I said, you've got 18 different jurisdictions over an F1 season. That means 18 different sets of laws which may or may not be invoked, 18 different sets of guidelines on punishment for guilty parties etc. etc. That's the ridiculous part, and that's why the local courts should leave the FIA deal with cheating.

Imagine a law in Spain that says you have to let Fernando Alonso (or Kamui Kobayashi!) finish first in any race that he races in. Captain Hammer would explode!

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 07 Nov 2010, 02:19

Debaser wrote:
Klon wrote:Oh, please, Massa do it, let Alonso through. Arresting Massa, especially if they do it during the podium ceremony, would be awesome ... for Interlagos. The TV ratings would explode, ensuring the future of the Interlagos race for the next ten years and I would laugh about it for the next twenty.

Think about the hits it would get on Youtube, a police officer marching on the podium to handcuff Massa and lead him away into a police van with millions watching at home and the bulbs on people's cameras going off everywhere. Sounds like something from a surrealist news program/comedy.

The end of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"?

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 07 Nov 2010, 09:13

I sense another Ferrari witch hunt... I mean F1 has been racing in Brazil since 1972 so why has this law only been pointed out now?

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 07 Nov 2010, 09:30

Well, unfortunately, Brazil is riddled with complete idiots such as Mr. Paulo Castilho. The press paid very little heed to his bravado, but he still managed to receive the necessary attention for his own agenda.

Brazil has some sporting laws that prohibit fraud of a sporting event, so he is basing his possible arrest on such laws. Hopefully, some local circus will hire him as a clown if he manages to pull out such stunt.

Libertango · Post by **Libertango** » 07 Nov 2010, 09:36

Wizzie wrote:I sense another Ferrari witch hunt... I mean F1 has been racing in Brazil since 1972 so why has this law only been pointed out now?

Agreed! What about 2007? When Massa let Kimi pass him so he could win?
Ok the pass was made in the stands and there was no "Kimi is faster than you, do you understand this mesage?" But nobody was fooled and Massa was much faster all week-end.

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 07 Nov 2010, 09:45

Enforcer wrote:1) Whether the Brazilian courts have legal right to punish Massa (or Button, or Vettel, or Whitmarsh, or Horner or anyone) by means of fines, community service, possibly jail time if they deem him guilty of cheating.

The answer to that is they probably do. I'm not disputing that.

Technically they do, but that would be a case that would never reach court probably. If Massa was arrested, a lawyer would probably either release him on bail or file a habeas corpus petition. Either way, that attorney, Paulo Cstilho, would probably tank his career and be exiled to some god forsaken hellhole in this country!

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 07 Nov 2010, 11:06

But would a judge grant Massa bail if he felt that Massa would just do the same thing again in Abu Dhabi next week? Even if it's outside of his jurisdiction, I can't imagine any judge letting an accused felon back out on the streets where they can just d the same thing al over again.

And Cstilho said he'll arrest Massa on charges of fraud and conspiracy to commit fraud. If he takes Massa for the latter, then he's going to get someone else in Ferrari - probably Domenicali, Alonso, Smedley, di Montezemolo (if he's there) or any combination thereof - because you cannot have a conspiracy of one.

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 07 Nov 2010, 11:22

Captain Hammer wrote:But would a judge grant Massa bail if he felt that Massa would just do the same thing again in Abu Dhabi next week? Even if it's outside of his jurisdiction, I can't imagine any judge letting an accused felon back out on the streets where they can just d the same thing al over again.

And Cstilho said he'll arrest Massa on charges of fraud and conspiracy to commit fraud. If he takes Massa for the latter, then he's going to get someone else in Ferrari - probably Domenicali, Alonso, Smedley, di Montezemolo (if he's there) or any combination thereof - because you cannot have a conspiracy of one.

You are putting way too much faith on the speed and capability of our judicial system!

Unfortunately, there are too many criminal and crooks out on bail here. If Massa was arrested, FIA would threaten to take the GP out of Brazil, the local politicians would pressure the district attorney to drop the charges and Castilho would find himself immediatly way out of his league.

If Castilho is so worried about those who commit fraud, I have gotten a list of local crooks he can do the favor of putting them behind bars. The bottomline is that those who will be attending the race today are well aware of Ferrari antics and there are more important matters for our judicial system to care about.