2011 Chinese Grand Prix Discussion

Post by **mario** » 14 Apr 2011, 11:03

I'm surprised that this thread hasn't popped up earlier, so I might as well bring it up now.

We've already had confirmation from Sauber that they will be bringing a new chassis for Perez after damage caused by loose ballast from a Toro Rosso car wrote off his chassis. More worryingly, it seems that the ballast actually penetrated the driver cockpit - Perez only escaped injury because the SECU and other electronic equipment were in the way (although the ballast only just stopped short of his seat, so he only missed out by a narrow margin). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90681

Unsurprisingly, after his aerial display in Malaysia, Petrov's chassis is also being replaced, this time with the one that he had previously used in Melbourne. However, unlike in Sauber's case, where the chassis was written off altogether, Renault are still hopeful that they can repair the damaged chassis in time for Turkey. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90683

Thankfully, despite the force with which he struck the ground, Petrov says that he is not suffering any after effects, other than being disappointed that he wasn't able to finish the race. He is still insisting that his accident was caused by a loss of grip after going slightly wide and ending up on the marbles. Petrov is not the only driver complaining of marbles though - Alonso has expressed concern about excessive marbles causing the drivers to loose control when going off line to pass each other, whilst Paul Di Resta was complaining that he was being pelted on the hands, arms and shoulders by pieces of the tyres, and found it a rather painful experience. There was also the rather dramatic demonstration of how large the pieces of rubber were when, in the pre show broadcast, Eddie Jordan emptied out a cup containing chunks of tyre.

The response by Pirelli is somewhat unsurprising - they have said that whilst they might look into ways to decrease the amount of marbles being produced, they are not going to make any significant changes to their design or overall philosophy. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90688

Oh, and spotting who is on what tyres for this race may become a bit more difficult, since the option tyres are going to have a silver band around the tyres this weekend, instead of gold (as in Malaysia), according to Virgin Racing. The reason for this change? Pirelli has run out of the gold paint pens they use to mark the option tyres, and because the replacements were being shipped in by sea freight, they haven't arrived in time for this weekend...

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 14 Apr 2011, 11:08

Run out of gold pens? Can't they just pop in into the nearest shop? :lol:

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 14 Apr 2011, 11:09

Pirelli, you fail at painting. If we can't see who's on which tyres, I'm sure ROTR will be Pirelli...

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 14 Apr 2011, 11:31

mario wrote:Oh, and spotting who is on what tyres for this race may become a bit more difficult, since the option tyres are going to have a silver band around the tyres this weekend, instead of gold (as in Malaysia), according to Virgin Racing. The reason for this change? Pirelli has run out of the gold paint pens they use to mark the option tyres, and because the replacements were being shipped in by sea freight, they haven't arrived in time for this weekend...

You couldn't make it up if you tried could you? :lol:

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 14 Apr 2011, 11:58

No matter how professional one enterprise/company/venture is, it will, sooner or later, be thwarted by something idiotic.

That loose ballast hitting Sergio Perez Sauber was a lucky escape for F1. As it was the loose spring a couple of years ago.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 14 Apr 2011, 12:44

mario wrote:I'm surprised that this thread hasn't popped up earlier, so I might as well bring it up now.

Thankfully, despite the force with which he struck the ground, Petrov says that he is not suffering any after effects, other than being disappointed that he wasn't able to finish the race. He is still insisting that his accident was caused by a loss of grip after going slightly wide and ending up on the marbles.

1. I think people are still discussing on the Malaysian GP thread. So Mario, thanks for moving things on to the next GP.

2. I wanted to comment on this Petrov situation because I am a bit worried (though hopefully unfounded). Is it not a bit worrying that the steering column could break so easily after an excursion like that? And isn't a broken steering column one of the theories as to why Senna had his Imola accident and died? Not such a problem on a Tilkedrome perhaps, but on one of the older tracks perhaps?

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 14 Apr 2011, 13:01

dr-baker wrote:
2. I wanted to comment on this Petrov situation because I am a bit worried (though hopefully unfounded). Is it not a bit worrying that the steering column could break so easily after an excursion like that? And isn't a broken steering column one of the theories as to why Senna had his Imola accident and died? Not such a problem on a Tilkedrome perhaps, but on one of the older tracks perhaps?

I wouldn't compare the column breaking The Senna crash and the breaking on Petrov crash. First of all, the telemetry from Sennas car suggested that the column was still turned at the time of impact, AKA it was still in one piece. Second of all, its not like Petrovs steering column broke "easily". After all, his car did leap what seemed like well over a meter into the air, landing in concrete, and since the cars have very soft springs, the shock of the impact must've hit the entire suspension/steering system (I find my english vocabulary a bit lacking so im using system in the lack of a better word) rather hard. A mass of almost 650kg landing on a hard surface with next to no shock absorbion is no small thing. I'm surprised Petrov can even sit down to be frank.

Post by **mario** » 14 Apr 2011, 13:31

DanielPT wrote:No matter how professional one enterprise/company/venture is, it will, sooner or later, be thwarted by something idiotic.

That loose ballast hitting Sergio Perez Sauber was a lucky escape for F1. As it was the loose spring a couple of years ago.

As you say, even the mighty can be humbled by some strange twist of fate - though I can't imagine that the commentators will appreciate it. To be fair to Pirelli, at least having a stripe on the softer tyre should make it easier to tell it from the unmarked tyre - but those questioning their capabilities won't be impressed that something as simple as gold paint has been overlooked.

dr-baker wrote:
mario wrote:I'm surprised that this thread hasn't popped up earlier, so I might as well bring it up now.

Thankfully, despite the force with which he struck the ground, Petrov says that he is not suffering any after effects, other than being disappointed that he wasn't able to finish the race. He is still insisting that his accident was caused by a loss of grip after going slightly wide and ending up on the marbles.

1. I think people are still discussing on the Malaysian GP thread. So Mario, thanks for moving things on to the next GP.

2. I wanted to comment on this Petrov situation because I am a bit worried (though hopefully unfounded). Is it not a bit worrying that the steering column could break so easily after an excursion like that? And isn't a broken steering column one of the theories as to why Senna had his Imola accident and died? Not such a problem on a Tilkedrome perhaps, but on one of the older tracks perhaps?

Well, I guess that now we know what happened to Perez's car, that has been a real talking point, since it has major safety implications for the sport.

As others pointed out, in many ways we are very lucky that it was Perez's car that came off the worst in that case, but it makes you wonder if the FIA are going to look into these recent connection failures and disintegrating bodywork. Asides from seeing smaller bits of bodywork flicking off some cars, Sauber also had a major bodywork failure in Australia, where part of their engine cover blew out, leaving a large gaping hole. That was worrying since Sauber had already had a similar failure in pre-season testing - and Williams, IIRC, also had a few pieces of bodywork fly off during testing too (the bodywork covering the fuel filler fell off at one point).

As for Petrov, admittedly he did hit the ground fairly hard (he must have flown a good metre or two off the ground, as the cornering speed at that corner is around 140mph normally), although it is still a bit concerning that the steering column should have failed in that way. OK, admittedly most of the suspension system had failed anyway, since the cars are not really designed for that sort of load - remember a few years ago when Coulthard's suspension collapsed in Malaysia after he went wide and struck a large bump in a run off area during a practise session? Still, I wouldn't be surprised if the FIA had a closer look at the telemetry from Petrov's car to see what exactly happened, since that was a fairly major failure.
As for Senna, well, it was posited that his steering column might have failed in Imola, based on video footage that suggested that the steering wheel was deflecting downwards before he struck the barrier. However, I think that it is unlikely that was the cause of the crash, since the steering column was found to be damaged, but still in one piece, after impact, which would suggest to me at least that it was not the cause of Senna's accident.

MaxZero · Post by **MaxZero** » 14 Apr 2011, 13:40

mario wrote:Pirelli has run out of the gold paint pens

I can see that making Private Eye XD

And did Petrov walk from his indecent immediately? I remember hearing that when Glock did something similar it knocked the wind right out of him.
You see him in the mugshots at the start of the race in grid position and wonder just how the hell he made that list of attractive Russians, his dark eye sockets make him look like The Pope/Darth Sidius

Row Man Gross-Gene · Post by **Row Man Gross-Gene** » 14 Apr 2011, 14:23

RE the accidents (Petrov's and Perez's) I feel that Petrov's is not much of a worry. The conditions that caused it can be fixed. The marble-ing of the tires can be worked on, and the Evel Knievel ramp that launched him can be flattened.

Perez's is much more difficult to deal with. What is the FIA going to do, ban debris? If a tiny endplate or winglet flies off and hits a driver in the visor, it could kill him. There is simply no way around it that I can conceive of. I'm interested in what others have to say about this.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 14 Apr 2011, 14:35

Yes! The "pre-race" post from Mario is back! I love them - and my norwegian friends are going to love it in Norwegian!

No offence to anyone here, but Mario does these things very good!

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 14 Apr 2011, 14:59

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:RE the accidents (Petrov's and Perez's) I feel that Petrov's is not much of a worry. The conditions that caused it can be fixed. The marble-ing of the tires can be worked on, and the Evel Knievel ramp that launched him can be flattened.

Perez's is much more difficult to deal with. What is the FIA going to do, ban debris? If a tiny endplate or winglet flies off and hits a driver in the visor, it could kill him. There is simply no way around it that I can conceive of. I'm interested in what others have to say about this.

In one sentence: Closed cockpits.

If bullet-proof glass stops small caliber and even a buck shot then it maybe as a chance of stopping/change the trajectory of springs or ballast.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 14 Apr 2011, 15:04

DanielPT wrote:
Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:RE the accidents (Petrov's and Perez's) I feel that Petrov's is not much of a worry. The conditions that caused it can be fixed. The marble-ing of the tires can be worked on, and the Evel Knievel ramp that launched him can be flattened.

Perez's is much more difficult to deal with. What is the FIA going to do, ban debris? If a tiny endplate or winglet flies off and hits a driver in the visor, it could kill him. There is simply no way around it that I can conceive of. I'm interested in what others have to say about this.

In one sentence: Closed cockpits.

It's a possibility, but how many closed-cockpit single-seaters have there been?

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 14 Apr 2011, 15:12

dr-baker wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:RE the accidents (Petrov's and Perez's) I feel that Petrov's is not much of a worry. The conditions that caused it can be fixed. The marble-ing of the tires can be worked on, and the Evel Knievel ramp that launched him can be flattened.

Perez's is much more difficult to deal with. What is the FIA going to do, ban debris? If a tiny endplate or winglet flies off and hits a driver in the visor, it could kill him. There is simply no way around it that I can conceive of. I'm interested in what others have to say about this.

In one sentence: Closed cockpits.

It's a possibility, but how many closed-cockpit single-seaters have there been?

Audi R18 is a single-seater. For real open wheel cars though the answer is probably none. Not even this is considered open wheel I think:

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 14 Apr 2011, 16:13

mario wrote:The response by Pirelli is somewhat unsurprising - they have said that whilst they might look into ways to decrease the amount of marbles being produced, they are not going to make any significant changes to their design or overall philosophy.

Oh, and spotting who is on what tyres for this race may become a bit more difficult, since the option tyres are going to have a silver band around the tyres this weekend, instead of gold (as in Malaysia), according to Virgin Racing. The reason for this change? Pirelli has run out of the gold paint pens they use to mark the option tyres, and because the replacements were being shipped in by sea freight, they haven't arrived in time for this weekend...

Pirelli: Oh, don't mind us. We're just doing a bush-league job after being handed a contract worth tens of millions of dollars and not listening to anyone, even the people who pay us, about what they want and need.

These marbles are ridiculous, something needs to done about them and virtually everyone but Pirelli agrees on that.

S951 · Post by **S951** » 14 Apr 2011, 18:33

another early start it is then

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 14 Apr 2011, 20:12

F1000X wrote:These marbles are ridiculous, something needs to done about them and virtually everyone but Pirelli agrees on that.

People wanted tires that wear. The rubber that wears off has to go somewhere. I'd prefer the spent rubber to be on the track than the other viable alternative (in little tiny pieces in the air where it can be breathed in).

Post by **mario** » 14 Apr 2011, 20:41

Myrvold wrote:Yes! The "pre-race" post from Mario is back! I love them - and my norwegian friends are going to love it in Norwegian!

No offence to anyone here, but Mario does these things very good!

Well, here are a few more little things that have cropped up in the first few pictures being taken in the pit lane that you might want to add to the list (by the way, I'm quite flattered that you liked my earlier post).
Firstly, it seems that Mercedes have brought a front wing type to this race that they had used at the final Barcelona test, but rejected in favour of their older front wing type. It features a slot in the lowest element, allowing some air to be bled from the upper surface to keep the airflow on the underside of the wing attached, to counteract the effects of turbulent air spilling off the front tyres.

Over at Toro Rosso, there are a few subtle tweaks to the exhaust system, which features a horizontal metal flap across the top of the exhaust, which seems to be aimed at directing more of the exhaust gas into the outer edge of the diffuser, similar to what teams like Red Bull are currently doing.
Old exhaust system

And updated exhaust system

Meanwhile, Williams are working away on a - you guessed it - Red Bull style exhaust solution (although with their own tweak on the system). Understandably, they are hoping that this new exhaust, along with a few modifications to the diffuser itself, will have a marked increase in downforce.

This has also been coupled with new vertical fins on the upper surface of the diffuser, seemingly designed to direct airflow over the top of the floor towards the outer edges of the floor and diffuser.

LionZoo wrote:
F1000X wrote:These marbles are ridiculous, something needs to done about them and virtually everyone but Pirelli agrees on that.

People wanted tires that wear. The rubber that wears off has to go somewhere. I'd prefer the spent rubber to be on the track than the other viable alternative (in little tiny pieces in the air where it can be breathed in).

It's true that, short of making the tyres incredibly tough, you inevitably will end up with marbles to a greater or lesser extent, and it is preferable in many ways to the fine dust that some tyres produce (I think that Goodyear got in a lot of trouble when an experimental batch of NASCAR tyres were literally turning to dust in the corners - although that was probably exacerbated by the teams ignoring Goodyear's advice on what set up they should have used...). What would be a major concern, though, is if we saw a return of the degradation pattern we saw in Barcelona, where the rubber was coming off in long strips (which was not something Pirelli had banked on, and is something that they are worried about).
It's also having a impact on the teams in another area - cooling. You might just be able to see it in that picture of the Williams, but some of the teams are now having to stick gauze over the brake ducts, because they found that they were becoming clogged up with marbles and leading to major brake cooling problems.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 14 Apr 2011, 21:39

First of all, you are able to remember, know and spot much more than I can dream of doing in a year before each race. You present it in a way, that explains it, without being to long and boring. A good use of pictures, but still it's not the easy solution of putting out lot's of pictures and basically saying that we should see for ourselves.

Not too sure if you remember it, or if you even know that it was me, but I sent a mail last year and asked for permission to translate and use your posts on the norwegian forum!

Luckily for me, you said that is ok!

EDIT: And your last post, that is brilliant for people that are interested in the technical and aerodynamics of the cars, but not being that good to find out themselves, or not motivated to read the long technical articles about it

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 14 Apr 2011, 21:55

Senna's crash, I'm pretty sure, had something to do with cold tyres. Since there was a safety car period before his crash, and the safety car was a slow Opel Vectra 16V, his tyres were very cold, which cringed them and made the car ride too low. Senna's car was bottoming at Tamburello, so at that lap the bottoming coupled with the reduced grip of cold tyres made the car lose downforce and go straight into the barrier.

Marbles are a problem indeed, but the way to reduce them would be to make the tyres more durable...How many of us want to see this return?

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 14 Apr 2011, 22:07

Phoenix wrote:Senna's crash, I'm pretty sure, had something to do with cold tyres. Since there was a safety car period before his crash, and the safety car was a slow Opel Vectra 16V, his tyres were very cold, which cringed them and made the car ride too low. Senna's car was bottoming at Tamburello, so at that lap the bottoming coupled with the reduced grip of cold tyres made the car lose downforce and go straight into the barrier.

Marbles are a problem indeed, but the way to reduce them would be to make the tyres more durable...How many of us want to see this return?

I watched a quite interesting document at Youtube about Sennas crash. Now, I know that it might be totally wrong and done simply for the sake of dramatization, but it did provide some interesting theories..
Here

Valrys · Post by **Valrys** » 15 Apr 2011, 02:08

Grrr, I stay up to watch FP1, and there's no sound on the BBC live feed

JohnMLTX · Post by **JohnMLTX** » 15 Apr 2011, 02:12

mario wrote:Lots of interesting, fascinating, entertaining, detailed, amazing things.

Mario, out of curiosity, what do you do for a living? Is it something with motorsports or journalism?

SR388 · Post by **SR388** » 15 Apr 2011, 02:13

When was the last time they did not have to cover up those grandstands on the last corner before the backstrech?

Also, it is super smoggy there!!

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 Apr 2011, 03:00

Razia's hit something and damaged the Lotus.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 Apr 2011, 03:04

Oh dear Nick. That wasn't a smart thing to do.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 Apr 2011, 03:27

Maldonado's binned it at turn 5. Brings back lots of not-so-happy memories of his time in GP2.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 Apr 2011, 03:32

And to put the icing on the cake Liuzzi went fast enough in the HRT to spin it. :lol:

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 15 Apr 2011, 05:30

From the F1Technical forum: ''It was hard to see anything as the track was engulfed in a really thick cloud. According to the commentators they said it was from a concrete plant next to the track."

This is the kind of crap that really pisses me off. There are no plants next to the Shanghai Circuit, but of course since it's in China, it must be full of factories right? Alternatively, let's just make something up to make China look worse. The commentators will get away with it since everyone will just believe them as they have no idea what is actually around the area. It's the same deal as last year, when they kept going on and on about how the grandstands were empty on Friday. Well it's because Chinese people work on Friday! I had tickets to the event last year, but I couldn't make it until the end of FP3 since I had a bunch of stuff to do. This kind of ridiculous anti-China (and anti-anything not Europe) propaganda from F1 pundits really grinds my gears, but of course they'll get away with it.

(Shanghai is a natural marsh area and marsh areas tend to generate a lot of fog. That is why there was fog on track.)

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 15 Apr 2011, 06:02

Who just overtook Hamilton in the pitlane? Surely that is against the rules?

The Passenger · Post by **The Passenger** » 15 Apr 2011, 06:48

And Quick Nick has smashed today's second front wing!

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 15 Apr 2011, 06:53

The Passenger wrote:And Quick Nick has smashed today's second front wing!

He's making a bid for the championship.

The Nosecone Destruction Championship.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 Apr 2011, 06:55

If that counts for the nosecone destruction championships then surely Chandhok and Razia's efforts deserve some recognition aswell.

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 15 Apr 2011, 07:01

Hey practice makes perfect.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 15 Apr 2011, 07:24

Been watching second practice - the Red Bulls are looking ominously good here.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 Apr 2011, 07:43

Fernando, Tonio is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message? :lol:

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 15 Apr 2011, 07:53

20. Narain Karthikeyan - HRT-Cosworth - 1:42.902 - 25 laps
21. Vitantonio Liuzzi - HRT-Cosworth - 1:43.850 - 3 laps
22. Jerome d'Ambrosio - Virgin-Cosworth - 1:44.008 - 35 laps
23. Timo Glock - Virgin-Cosworth - 1:44.747 - 12 laps

Oh boy.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 15 Apr 2011, 07:56

LionZoo wrote:21. Vitantonio Liuzzi - HRT-Cosworth - 1:43.850 - 3 laps
22. Jerome d'Ambrosio - Virgin-Cosworth - 1:44.008 - 35 laps

Now THAT is something right there.

S951 · Post by **S951** » 15 Apr 2011, 08:36

hrt wow faster than virgin

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 15 Apr 2011, 08:38

Apparently, Perez's retirement from the Malaysian GP was not caused by debris/ballast from a Toro Rosso after all!

Autosport.com wrote:Technical director James Key has said his team still does not know exactly what Perez hit in the race - but a part from a Scuderia Toro Rosso car, as first suspected, has now been ruled out with the Italian team confirming its cars were not missing any items at the end of the event.

"It was quite an odd incident actually," Key told AUTOSPORT. "Sergio hit what he believed was a piece of wing or something, because it must have been big enough for him to see.

"It appeared to come off the car in front, which was a Toro Rosso, but subsequently we found out that they also found some damage on their car, so it looks like this piece was lying on the ground beforehand."