Grand Prix Rejects

I was wondering who was actually the first black F1 drivers ?
Most of the people say Hamilton but do you remember Willy T. Ribbs ? he was invited back in 85 by Ecclestone himself to test the Brabham BMW Turbo.

Depends how you define "F1 Driver", to my knowledge Ribbs never attempted to qualify for a Grand Prix, so does that one test make him an F1 Driver?

I personally think no, there are many many people who have driven F1 cars, be it in a test, demonstration run, or even racing classic cars, for me, a driver has to attempt to qualify for at least one championship grand prix.

No one else springs to mind before Hamilton, but then I wouldn't consider myself an expert.

Well i see tests also as it.
It also couted for that Israeli guy, he was the FIRST israeli guy to drive f1.

But if you see it as you maybe Behra ?

What about Prince Bira of Siam of the 1950s?

And it depends on the definition of "black". A boy born with a white mother, will never, in my eyes be black. He can be colored, but no more than people like Montoya.

Montoya is a weird kettle of fish. For someone from the highlands he is remarkably colored.

If you mean 'brown' look no further than karthikeyan and chandhok, as they have darker skins than hamilton, they're even more 'ghetto' than hamilton i suppose (not as ghetto as liuzzi, that's impossible )
if you mean 'native african' or 'african american' that's a different matter. etc.

Maybe Danny Ongais, the guy who's always mentioned to have a profile here but doesn't end up getting one for good?

Though for me Hamilton is mulatto, not black. And the same goes for Ongais.

Willy T. Ribbs -- a very underestimated driver who, despite being a pay driver, was VERY impressive in the Raynor car (basically like a Virgin) in CART. Willy T was something fearsome in Trans-Am though...

... this was when Trans-Am was a legitimate category, mind you.

If we are talking about people of African descent, after Ribbs I guess Jason Watt came closest, there was some talk of him in silly season stuff before his accident.
Didn't one of the teams start an acadamy with African youth? assume that died on its arse...

dnhrudi wrote:If we are talking about people of African descent, after Ribbs I guess Jason Watt came closest, there was some talk of him in silly season stuff before his accident.
Didn't one of the teams start an acadamy with African youth? assume that died on its arse...

There's a lower-tier team in NASCAR that's trying to bring black drivers (and other minorities) up to the big leagues called Revolution Racing. They're succeeding so far with Darrell Wallace, Jr. Perhaps that's what you were thinking about...

On the topic of black drivers, there was a black driver racing in NASCAR in the 1950s and 1960s named Wendell Scott, and was the first (and to date, only) black driver to win a race in NASCAR back in 1963. Now, for those of you who don't know how blacks were treated in America during that time, and given where NASCAR originated, that man had some serious balls!

He did earn a lot of respect from some of his competitors, in particular Ned Jarrett, who would help him out on occasion.

Chase Austin, Marc Davis (incurred the wrath of Joe Gibbs for not complying with Gibbs team orders IIRC), and Bill Lester are other black drivers to have competed in NASCAR in recent years.

Other black drivers I know of ... what about Adrian Zaugg of A1GP fame? What ever happened to him? Then there's George Mack, who ran for a minority-owned team in the IRL some time ago, and... I don't think he had a good car and didn't really do too much in it.

dr-baker wrote:What about Prince Bira of Siam of the 1950s?

No, he was Thai, not black. As for Lewis Hamilton, I don't consider him black as a whole. Half-black yes, but black, no. If he is black, then he's the whitest acting black dude I have ever seen. I've seen white guys that act more black than Hamilton ever would. I guess since Willy T. Ribbs test drive is the earliest we can find, then I guess I consider him the first black F1 driver for now.

"Black Jack" (Brabham)...

Cynon wrote:Other black drivers I know of ... what about Adrian Zaugg of A1GP fame? What ever happened to him? Then there's George Mack, who ran for a minority-owned team in the IRL some time ago, and... I don't think he had a good car and didn't really do too much in it.

After a small bit of research, I found that he's currently racing in Auto GP for Super Nova Racing.

There was a black driver in F2 (class B) in 1984 or '85........can't remember his name though.

dnhrudi wrote:If we are talking about people of African descent, after Ribbs I guess Jason Watt came closest, there was some talk of him in silly season stuff before his accident.

But Jason Watt isn't black at all. He's Danish, in fact

Phoenix wrote:

dnhrudi wrote:If we are talking about people of African descent, after Ribbs I guess Jason Watt came closest, there was some talk of him in silly season stuff before his accident.

But Jason Watt isn't black at all. He's Danish, in fact

You can be black and danish. But he isn't Usain Bolt - black he either.

Myrvold wrote:

Phoenix wrote:

dnhrudi wrote:If we are talking about people of African descent, after Ribbs I guess Jason Watt came closest, there was some talk of him in silly season stuff before his accident.

But Jason Watt isn't black at all. He's Danish, in fact

You can be black and danish. But he isn't Usain Bolt - black he either.

Ethnicity and nationality are fundamentally different things, Hamilton is English after all, not Kenyan, not that it matters except it would be quite groovy to have the Kenyan national anthem!
There was a degree of press about Jasons ethnicity when he looked like there was a chance he might get to F1, you know, how do you feel about being the first person of colour to reach F1, what does it mean for people of colour etc etc etc. I just saw a very useful single seater driver and apparently a very popular and friendly guy by all accounts, and a shame he had his accident but has been a very successful touring car driver despite his paraplegia and I think now a team owner? (not a big follower of tin tops I'm afraid!)
What i do find a bit weird here is that there seems to be a perception that someone has to be a gangsta rap soul brother and be very dark skinned to be 'black', people can present themselves however they choose i say, and celebrate their ethnicity however dark or light skinned they are

Jason drives for his own "Team Bygma Janson Watt Racing" with a SEAT in the Scandinavian Touring Car Championship (even though it was more Scandinavian when it was called the Swedish TCC). However, due to financial issues I don't think he races full-time. But he won the first race of the season! Also done one WTCC race in 07 I think.

dnhrudi wrote:

Myrvold wrote:

Phoenix wrote:...Jason Watt isn't black at all. He's Danish, in fact

You can be black and danish. But he isn't Usain Bolt - black he either.

Ethnicity and nationality are fundamentally different things, Hamilton is English after all, not Kenyan, not that it matters except it would be quite groovy to have the Kenyan national anthem!

Kenyan? Where did that come from? Barack Obama has Kenyan ancestors; Lewis Hamilton has ancestors from Trinidad and Tobago!

Plus, for reference, Jason Watt:

dr-baker wrote:Lewis Hamilton has ancestors from Trinidad and Tobago!

Are you sure? I thought it was Grenada.

tommykl wrote:

dr-baker wrote:Lewis Hamilton has ancestors from Trinidad and Tobago!

Are you sure? I thought it was Grenada.

In either case, it wasn't Kenya as alluded to earlier!

idefan wrote: Depends how you define "F1 Driver", to my knowledge Ribbs never attempted to qualify for a Grand Prix, so does that one test make him an F1 Driver?

Myrvold wrote:And it depends on the definition of "black". A boy born with a white mother, will never, in my eyes be black. He can be colored, but no more than people like Montoya.

I think that, at this stage, depends on the definition of the word "definition".

On the serious side: I think the previous quotes to be accurate questions enough to, even if we want to discuss the subject, we must take them into account.

Personally, I think "The first black guy in an F1 entry", or "the first navajo indian to put a step on Monaco" or "the first argie on the moon" are irrelevant, in general, only to build an accusation if there's no black guy (or segment of population, etnic belonging, etc), at all for explicit restrictive reasons. And that it's the best favor we can give them.

Being said this, we must admit that F1 (and Motorsport in general, but F1 in particular) is a serious case of discrimination since budgets are so restrictive that most minorities (and, to be honest, minor economies) find it impossible to land a driver or a team there.

At this stage i want to say "I'm sorry", I feel I have changed the subject". But reading posts about if Montoya, Nissany, Chandook or Kartikheyan qualify as black (demi-black, or "yeah, gray but not so") may give the idea that we are entering a complex territory (an easy one, indeed, Nissany Kartikheyan and Montoya are not black, but you get my point). I beg you to not to feel accused of anything because of this post.

Aside from that, and trying to recover your approval: Ecclestone, Balestre or whoever was in charge, at least, never made discriminations again any kind of minorities or discriminated segments. There's no Female F1, females (or whoever) proves themselves creditable on the same grounds as males. They are good, they stay, they are not (or their economical support it's not good enough) then they are dropped.

A phrase on a banner on the top of an exclusive mall, in a Simpsons episode comes to my mind: "Our prices discriminates because we can't"

EDIT after EDIT (5 or 6 times): typing corrections mostly. You'll see, my english is degradating as days goes by without using it.

dr-baker wrote:

tommykl wrote:

dr-baker wrote:Lewis Hamilton has ancestors from Trinidad and Tobago!

Are you sure? I thought it was Grenada.

In either case, it wasn't Kenya as alluded to earlier!

I just pulled Kenya from the air could just have easily said Ghana, i don't have the first idea where Hamiltons roots lay. though understanding the Uks history the west indies would be an obvious one. just trying to make a point regarding nationality and ethnicity. here

dnhrudi wrote:I just pulled Kenya from the air could just have easily said Ghana, i don't have the first idea where Hamiltons roots lay. though understanding the Uks history the west indies would be an obvious one. just trying to make a point regarding nationality and ethnicity. here

Just trying to be accurate. But even Kenya, knowing the UK's history, was not a bad guess - my grandfather was a headmaster at a British Army school in Kenya for a few years in the early 1960s, just before Kenyan independance. My mum was a young girl at the time and she and her older siblings enjoyd their time in Kenya. But they don't discuss it much with my mum's younger sister present, as she was born after their return to England.

On reflection, I think I generally agree with Popi_Larrauri, Lewis Hamilton has done many more remarkable things than "be black"; he has a whole brace of rookie records (Most wins, most poles, most consecutive podiums, best championship finish etc.) Beyond pure stats, there are other remarkable things about him, like the fact that he was signed up by McLaren at such a young age, and has essentially been part of the team for ten years before reaching F1.

When you consider all of this, the fact that his grand parents were from Grenada is pretty insignificant.