Grand Prix Rejects

Back in 1999 BAR were told that due to the rules, they could not race both cars in two different liveries and so had to race with both colours on both cars split by a zipper.
But how come on the 2008 Brazilian GP, DC had his wings for life colours whilst Mark Webber kept the normal colours.
I have always been intrigued, was there a rule change before then? and do you agree with the rule?

stupot94 wrote:Back in 1999 BAR were told that due to the rules, they could not race both cars in two different liveries and so had to race with both colours on both cars split by a zipper.
But how come on the 2008 Brazilian GP, DC had his wings for life colours whilst Mark Webber kept the normal colours.
I have always been intrigued, was there a rule change before then? and do you agree with the rule?

Brazil was an exception granted to Coulthard by the FIA. I guess if, for example, Michael Schumacher or Rubens Barrichello would ask for a special retirement livery, they'd get said exceptions as well. To be honest, though, I prefer having this rule. There are enough racing series offering individual cars. In F1, a team should look alike.

stupot94 wrote:Back in 1999 BAR were told that due to the rules, they could not race both cars in two different liveries and so had to race with both colours on both cars split by a zipper.
But how come on the 2008 Brazilian GP, DC had his wings for life colours whilst Mark Webber kept the normal colours.
I have always been intrigued, was there a rule change before then? and do you agree with the rule?

Perhaps the authorities are prepared to bend the rules for "charitable" reasons but not purely commercial ones. It could also be argued that DC retained the original livery...it was just covered up a bit... ...... not sure, off hand, about any regs. governing the application of "sponsors" decals etc...

Probably best if cars in the same team run in the same livery....the possibilities for confusion &/or legal arguments....ugh..

eagleash wrote:

stupot94 wrote:Back in 1999 BAR were told that due to the rules, they could not race both cars in two different liveries and so had to race with both colours on both cars split by a zipper.
But how come on the 2008 Brazilian GP, DC had his wings for life colours whilst Mark Webber kept the normal colours.
I have always been intrigued, was there a rule change before then? and do you agree with the rule?

Perhaps the authorities are prepared to bend the rules for "charitable" reasons but not purely commercial ones. It could also be argued that DC retained the original livery...it was just covered up a bit... ...... not sure, off hand, about any regs. governing the application of "sponsors" decals etc...

Probably best if cars in the same team run in the same livery....the possibilities for confusion &/or legal arguments....ugh..

Not to mention team orders and alike. It would be a mess... And given nowadays lack of sponsors it would mean more sponsors for top teams and even less to backmarkers if said regulation were to change for something more commercially friendly.

Its just something that has perplexed me

Separate liveries have always worked in the US, and they have much bigger fields. I especially liked Max Papis' special 1999 livery which he ran for a few races. I recall Jimmy Vasser running a Superman livery at one of the Michigan races. That was quite a mess, but I liked it nonetheless!



Of course it'll never happen in F1. For the 'professionalism' of the sport. God damnit! I'd love to see one of the RBR's run the usual livery, and the other in the 2006-2008 STR livery. Team Lotus can have one in BRG and another one in either Camel Yellow, Imperial Tobacco colours, or that 90s livery which was decent. Sauber can have a Telmex livery for Perez, and a ripoff of Rodolfo Lavin's 2004 Lola Corona livery.

It has customarily worked in US racing classes, where it is often more about the spectacle. The drawback there, being that the team identity often becomes secondary, whereas in F1 traditionally is very much a team based sport...
It would take a change in mindset for F1 to be comfortable with the concept

Didn't Ligier run two different Gitanes liveries simultaneously during part of 1993?

JQW wrote:Didn't Ligier run two different Gitanes liveries simultaneously during part of 1993?

Only Martin Brundle's car for the Japanese GP, I think.

And in 1984 didn't Tyrell run their cars with slightly different liveries?

I recall one of the cars being black and the other being maroon or something.

Dan B wrote:And in 1984 didn't Tyrell run their cars with slightly different liveries?

I recall one of the cars being black and the other being maroon or something.

Correct. Stefan Bellof's car was black with Maredo sponsorship, Martin Brundle's was brown with Delonghi. Also, when Stefan Johansson stepped in for Martin Brundle when he was injured, his car was blue with Systime sponsorship.

Then there was Keke Rosberg's yellow & white McLaren at the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix.

JQW wrote:Then there was Keke Rosberg's yellow & white McLaren at the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix.

This one looks particularly silly, the car was left for months at the sunlight and the color faded out...

I'm surprised they didn't go for blue instead for Rosberg's car. It would have made a good ad for Marlboro Milds. (If they exsisted in 1986.)

noisebox wrote:

JQW wrote:Didn't Ligier run two different Gitanes liveries simultaneously during part of 1993?

Only Martin Brundle's car for the Japanese GP, I think.

What is that? A women waving her purse around? Where'd that come from?

stop drivin' so fast! *WACK*

Good one!

I think the key reasons why teams are expected to run the same livery are so that the two cars can easily be identified as being part of the same team (more inmportant in F1), and also for promotional material reasons.

Remember that documents like race programs get printed weeks or even months in advance and F1 races have a lot of 'inexperienced' spectators who actually have to use the program to work out which car and driver is which.

For example, I'm sure Brawn GP would have loved to have redesigned their livery mid-season, but save for a few pieces of red text they weren't allowed.

So when IS it allowed? I'd say when after the change you can still identify the car as being from that team helps, and otherwise only in particularly charitable or signifcant situations.

JeremyMcClean wrote:

noisebox wrote:

JQW wrote:Didn't Ligier run two different Gitanes liveries simultaneously during part of 1993?

Only Martin Brundle's car for the Japanese GP, I think.

What is that? A women waving her purse around? Where'd that come from?

Its a castanet, silly!

JeremyMcClean wrote:

noisebox wrote:

JQW wrote:Didn't Ligier run two different Gitanes liveries simultaneously during part of 1993?

Only Martin Brundle's car for the Japanese GP, I think.

What is that? A women waving her purse around? Where'd that come from?

It was a special one-off livery designed by Hugo Pratt (graphic artist, author of Corto Maltese among others). Gitane is french for gypsy, so the logo for Gitanes has always been a woman holding a castanet (no stereotyping there).

Two liveries in CART have been around for a while,

I remember Pac West, Gugelmin had 'Hollywood' sponsorship in the red car, while Blundell had Motorola,in blue and white

Team Rahal: Miller Light (Papis) Shell (Kenny Brack, Bryan Herta)

to name a few

David AGS wrote:Two liveries in CART have been around for a while,

I remember Pac West, Gugelmin had 'Hollywood' sponsorship in the red car, while Blundell had Motorola,in blue and white

Team Rahal: Miller Light (Papis) Shell (Kenny Brack, Bryan Herta)

to name a few

I never liked the Hollywood liveried cars. I just found Blue, Red and Green together insane. Also, Miller Lite on any car looks fantastic. Be it Genuine Draft or any other. All the liveries are superb!

Tomas Scheckter's livery at this years indy 500 was insane!

JQW wrote:Then there was Keke Rosberg's yellow & white McLaren at the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix.

To be honest, that is one of my favorite alternative liveries.

I really wish we could have something like this again

http://8w.forix.com/p86.html

Don't know if you all have seen this, it explains most of the liveries mentioned, seems Marlboro requested the "Lights Treatment" then hated it due to TV, which was too bad as I know far more people who smoke Lights that the real Cowboy Killers themselves. This must be a Marlboro quirk, as I've been told Ferrari's current crop of cars (last five years or so) actually look quite orange in person, so that they'll be proper Marlboro red on HDTV. Any truth to this?

Nevertheless, I always like the fad over here in the late '80s-early '90s where teams would run same sponsors but different liveries. For example the Porsche Indycars had Quakerstate. The decals were all the same, but One was green with silver trim, while the other was silver with green trim.

lgaquino wrote:I really wish we could have something like this again

Me too although that could invite this sort of malarkey....

Oh, Alain...

On the Williams, I do recall reading somewhere that McLaren were very close to landing the SEGA money but Williams got the nod. In revenge, McLaren put logos of a squashed hedgehog on the car or something like that.

A similar topic was discussed in 2010, re Ferrari livery and that hedgehog appears there too!

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1018&start=30

Another interesting fact about the SEGA deal was that BMS Scuderia Lola was also in the hunt for the SEGA sponsorship, but SEGA said it had no interest whatsoever in sponsoring a Formula 1 team and a few weeks later it shows up on the Williams.

I just think SEGA didn't want to call their project crap!

David AGS wrote:On the Williams, I do recall reading somewhere that McLaren were very close to landing the SEGA money but Williams got the nod. In revenge, McLaren put logos of a squashed hedgehog on the car or something like that.
0

That is indeed correct. For every victory that McLaren scored that year, a sticker of a squashed hedgehog appeared on the Macca

I just thought it was all due to Senna sticking one over Williams (in particular Prost) at Donington!!

Wallio wrote:This must be a Marlboro quirk, as I've been told Ferrari's current crop of cars (last five years or so) actually look quite orange in person, so that they'll be proper Marlboro red on HDTV. Any truth to this?

I've definitely heard that before. I also understand that the Vodafone red on McLarens is actually orange, but looks red on camera.

Wallio wrote:This must be a Marlboro quirk, as I've been told Ferrari's current crop of cars (last five years or so) actually look quite orange in person, so that they'll be proper Marlboro red on HDTV. Any truth to this?

Marlboro has used dayglo red long before HDTV came along, which has a distinct orangeish look when seen in person under sunlight. The cars just appear bright red on TV and pictures which I think is due to how the color red is "translated" in media. Ferrari switched to the dayglo red when Marlboro became their title sponsor in 1997, used that until early into the 2007 season when they switched to a dark metallic red that looks closer scarlet. It looks like they used that through the 2009 season, then reverted back to the Marlboro red for 2010, but I haven't seen those cars in person to confirm.

Backmarker wrote:

Wallio wrote:This must be a Marlboro quirk, as I've been told Ferrari's current crop of cars (last five years or so) actually look quite orange in person, so that they'll be proper Marlboro red on HDTV. Any truth to this?

I've definitely heard that before. I also understand that the Vodafone red on McLarens is actually orange, but looks red on camera.

Similarly, the gold colour on the original JPS Lotus cars had a slightly yellow tinge to them in order to help it stand out slightly more from the black background on TV, rather than being the pure gold colour that everybody seems to remember it as.

Svenko Wankerov wrote:

Wallio wrote:This must be a Marlboro quirk, as I've been told Ferrari's current crop of cars (last five years or so) actually look quite orange in person, so that they'll be proper Marlboro red on HDTV. Any truth to this?

Marlboro has used dayglo red long before HDTV came along, which has a distinct orangeish look when seen in person under sunlight. The cars just appear bright red on TV and pictures which I think is due to how the color red is "translated" in media. Ferrari switched to the dayglo red when Marlboro became their title sponsor in 1997, used that until early into the 2007 season when they switched to a dark metallic red that looks closer scarlet. It looks like they used that through the 2009 season, then reverted back to the Marlboro red for 2010, but I haven't seen those cars in person to confirm.

I cannot be sure, but I think that, due to the pressure on the team to remove the Marlboro "barcode" logo and any reference to Marlboro from the team name, that the shade of red used does also seem to be marginally darker than it was beforehand (i.e. a bit closer to what it was in 2009) in order to put a little distance between themselves and Marlboro.

Svenko Wankerov wrote:

Wallio wrote:This must be a Marlboro quirk, as I've been told Ferrari's current crop of cars (last five years or so) actually look quite orange in person, so that they'll be proper Marlboro red on HDTV. Any truth to this?

Marlboro has used dayglo red long before HDTV came along, which has a distinct orangeish look when seen in person under sunlight. The cars just appear bright red on TV and pictures which I think is due to how the color red is "translated" in media. Ferrari switched to the dayglo red when Marlboro became their title sponsor in 1997, used that until early into the 2007 season when they switched to a dark metallic red that looks closer scarlet. It looks like they used that through the 2009 season, then reverted back to the Marlboro red for 2010, but I haven't seen those cars in person to confirm.

See that makes sense, but I've seen some Penske Indycars (pre-ciggy ban) in person, and I can't remember them being orange. Rose-coloured glasses perhaps?

I read that Spyker's original livery in early 2007 was a lot more orange than it was when raced, but the orange paint didn't look right when filmed. I could've also read somewhere that the pre-97 Marlboro Ferraris, under some conditions looked maroon.

More info on the Spyker: http://www.f1colours.com/2007/03/13/spy ... ge-livery/

I always got the impression that Marlboro sponsored cars (McLaren and Ferrari) sometimes looked dark orange on pictures, so there must be something true about it. In the McLaren days, sometimes it even looked fluorescent Orange. Or is this just my imagination?

Another question

TimmyB wrote:For example, I'm sure Brawn GP would have loved to have redesigned their livery mid-season, but save for a few pieces of red text they weren't allowed.

Didn't Midland chnage from black/white/red to orang/silver in 2006 due to a change in sponsors. I heard rumours that Brawn wanted to change their livery, but I don't know if it remained the same due to the rules, or the fact that they like the livery, and it was quite well known, seeing how the season had started.

Svenko Wankerov wrote:

Wallio wrote:This must be a Marlboro quirk, as I've been told Ferrari's current crop of cars (last five years or so) actually look quite orange in person, so that they'll be proper Marlboro red on HDTV. Any truth to this?

Marlboro has used dayglo red long before HDTV came along, which has a distinct orangeish look when seen in person under sunlight. The cars just appear bright red on TV and pictures which I think is due to how the color red is "translated" in media. Ferrari switched to the dayglo red when Marlboro became their title sponsor in 1997, used that until early into the 2007 season when they switched to a dark metallic red that looks closer scarlet. It looks like they used that through the 2009 season, then reverted back to the Marlboro red for 2010, but I haven't seen those cars in person to confirm.

IIRC, Ferrari actually resorted to Rosso Corsa at the start of 2007, but from Monaco onwards, ran the metallic scarlet, to improve how the cars looked on TV.

About US racing teams and liveries. Aren't the teams structured in such as way as to esentially run a 2in1 kind of thing? 2 separate drivers/race engineers/etc... and naturally sponsorship deals. But the cars are both owned and managed by the same team and financially exist as one. It would also make it easier to accomodate driver sponsorship.

That may be a thing of the past though, i have not followed recent US races. I do recall that in the IndyCar/CART heyday it was perfectly normal to have separate sponsorship, and the majority of the teams operated that way. It was harder on the casual fans maybe, but casual fans don't care about teams so much, but the drivers leading and winning. And if you follow the sport long enough you learn the teams.

Sublime_FA11C wrote:About US racing teams and liveries. Aren't the teams structured in such as way as to esentially run a 2in1 kind of thing? 2 separate drivers/race engineers/etc... and naturally sponsorship deals. But the cars are both owned and managed by the same team and financially exist as one. It would also make it easier to accomodate driver sponsorship.

That may be a thing of the past though, i have not followed recent US races. I do recall that in the IndyCar/CART heyday it was perfectly normal to have separate sponsorship, and the majority of the teams operated that way. It was harder on the casual fans maybe, but casual fans don't care about teams so much, but the drivers leading and winning. And if you follow the sport long enough you learn the teams.

Yup. Still is like that, for the most part. Ganassi and Penske are the only two exceptions (that I can think of, I've only started following it) in Indycar, as two of their cars have very similar liveries. But Penske, like several other teams, is a three car operation, and their third car has a livery very different from the other two.
NASCAR is still like that, too.