Grand Prix Rejects

I want to learn a bit more about the history of F1 and am wondering about the folks who should be in the running. I'd also like to know a bit more about modern perceptions of the folks mentioned, so anything anyone wants to tell me about their choices, mine (or other's) I'd appreciate it.

I'll start the nominations from the south and move north.

Ricardo Rodríguez - I don't know much about the Rodríguez brothers, so anything anyone can tell us would be appreciated.

Pedro Rodríguez - ditto. Won 2 Grands Prix.

Dan Gurney - The only driver that Jim Clark feared (supposedly). Won 4 Grands Prix.

Peter Revson - Heir to an enormous fortune (technically not the Revlon company as that was his uncle's, but his father owned a chemical company). Won 1 Grand Prix I believe.

Gilles Villeneuve - Not much I can add about Gilles. Won 6 Grands Prix.

Jacques Villeneuve - Obviously won the world championship.


Please feel free to add choices, ideas, commentary regardless of where you're from. This is primarily a learning exercise.

Phil Hill, of course, was an American WDC, as was Andretti.

Mario Andretti

Eddie Cheever was also a good driver. Should have won a race, but rarely had a good team to do so. Nine career podiums, two of them in the U.S., and one in Canada. He also currently has the most GP starts than any other American in Formula 1.

Tom Jones

shinji wrote:Tom Jones

No, he said greatest North American drivers, not rejectful ones that share the same name as a Welsh singer, or a 1963 Best Picture winning film.

Richie Ginther deserves a mention, he collected a bunch of podiums in the early-to-mid 60s, as well as winning Honda's first GP. There's also Mark Donohue, who picked up a podium on his debut. Had he not been killed while practicing a March for Roger Penske's F1 effort, I think he showed enough talent to win a World Championship.

Also, Peter Revson won 2 Grands Prix, not just the one. I also remember reading a feature on the Rodriguez brothers, though I have no idea where, and don't recall most of it. I do remember that Ricardo, the younger brother, was considered the more talented of the two (I think he held the record for youngest points scorer for decades before Jenson Button broke it).

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Richie Ginther deserves a mention, he collected a bunch of podiums in the early-to-mid 60s, as well as winning Honda's first GP. There's also Mark Donohue, who picked up a podium on his debut. Had he not been killed while practicing a March for Roger Penske's F1 effort, I think he showed enough talent to win a World Championship.

Also, Peter Revson won 2 Grands Prix, not just the one. I also remember reading a feature on the Rodriguez brothers, though I have no idea where, and don't recall most of it. I do remember that Ricardo, the younger brother, was considered the more talented of the two (I think he held the record for youngest points scorer for decades before Jenson Button broke it).

Ginther was a great driver in his day. He was third in the drivers championship in 1963, the only reason he wasn't second was because Graham Hill had two wins, and Ginter had none. Even though they were both tied in points. Mark Donahue was showing potential, but sadly was killed before people could see more of talent. Peter Revson I think could have won more races, possibly could have been a championship contender as well, had he not been killed in practice in South Africa in 1974.

Ricardo Rodriguez was also the youngest driver to start and score a podium at the Le Mans 24 hour race, as well as the youngest to start from the front of a grand prix (a record I think he still holds).

By 'The Greatest North American F1 Drivers' does that mean 'The Greatest North American who ever raced in a Grand Prix' or 'The Greatest North American who ever drove a Formula 1 car'?

I raised this because technically AJ Foyt, even though he never raced an F1 car, raced at Indy 500 when it still counts.

Strictly speaking, this has nothing to do with what said drivers did whilst in F1, so...

Mario Andretti - Of course. It's rare to see someone who wins the Indy 500, Daytona 500, Drivers World Championship, 2nd in Le Mans and 1st in his class. Definitely the American Hero of Motorsport, even if he is technically Italian.

The American Cavalcade Of The 60s - From memory; Hill, Ginther, Gurney, Revson and, hmm, I think I've run out of memory. Anyway, all these guys won a race, Hill won a championship, be it in extremely unfortunate circumstances, all of these guys were battling it out with the best of Europe in a manner that looked easy. Gurney I believe also won a race in an All-American combo, the Eagle-Weslake I believe it was called, which, IIRC, mario said was fast but extremely fragile.

Michael Andretti - F1 disaster aside, Michael is a part of the American racing fraternity. 1991 IndyCar champ despite a slow start, narrow miss in 1992, first win for Reynard out in Australia in 1994 and Swift at Homestead in 1997, championship contender for pretty much his entire career, and a driver extremely difficult to pass, and a fantastic wheel to wheel racer. When you think of it, his 1993 wasn't that bad, look at Donington 1993 for instance, where I think he was up to 4th, only to tangle with Karl Wendlinger. He was consistently in the top 10 in qualifying, and often had good races, only for something to happen. You only had to look at his last race in Italy (sadly, the FOM has taken it down from YouTube), where, as Bob Varsha put it straight and clearcut, it was the 'Michael that they knew'. Had he shown some commitment, he may very well have succeeded in F1.

cretoxyrhina wrote:I raised this because technically AJ Foyt, even though he never raced an F1 car, raced at Indy 500 when it still counts.

AJ Foyt may only be known due to his Indy legend, but the fact that he went out there, won the 24 Hours at first shot, makes me wonder what would have happened if he had pursued an F1 career, with seriousness.

A topic for another of my stories!?

That's up to you to decide.

Here are a couple of links from the sports illustrated archive.

1972 article on Peter Revson: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1085694/index.htm

1974 article on Revson: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1089042/index.htm

(both are nice long articles, the 1974 one is made up of parts of Revson's book)


Another question that I have is how would you rank them? I don't really know enough about them to be able to do so other than by race wins, but that may not tell the whole story.

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:Another question that I have is how would you rank them? I don't really know enough about them to be able to do so other than by race wins, but that may not tell the whole story.

Well, here my top ten ranking for North American Formula 1 drivers.

1. Phil Hill
2. Mario Andretti
3. Dan Gurney
4. Gilles Villeneuve
5. Peter Revson
6. Richie Ginter
7. Jacques Villeneuve
8. Pedro Rodriguez
9. Eddie Cheever
10. Harry Schell

Dan Gurney:
- Won a Grand Prix in a car he'd designed
- Won Le Mans
- Once finished 7th in a Grand Prix after stopping mid-way through to... er... 'relieve' himself.
- Ran a highly succesful IMSA GTP team
- Ran a succesful Indycar team
- Invented the Gurney Flap
- Started the whole 'spraying the champagne' thing
- Was involved in development of, (and raced) both the Plymouth Superbird and AAR 'Cuda
- Built the Alligator motorcycle
- Is building the Project 56 DeltaWing for next year's Le Mans
- Is awesome

Jordan192 wrote:Dan Gurney:
- Won a Grand Prix in a car he'd designed
- Won Le Mans
- Once finished 7th in a Grand Prix after stopping mid-way through to... er... 'relieve' himself.
- Ran a highly succesful IMSA GTP team
- Ran a succesful Indycar team
- Started the whole 'spraying the champagne' thing
- Was involved in development of, (and raced) both the Plymouth Superbird and AAR 'Cuda
- Built the Alligator motorcycle
- Is building the Project 56 DeltaWing for next year's Le Mans
- Is awesome

Don't forget the Gurney flap too. That had a significant factor in motorsports too. I remember watching a video interview with Stirling Moss, and he mentioned that he thought Dan Gurney was one of the best drivers never to become world champion.

I'd rank the top 10 North American F1 drivers as:
1. Mario Andretti
2. Gilles Villeneuve
3. Dan Gurney
4. Phil Hill
5. Mark Donohue
6. Jacques Villeneuve
7. Ricardo Rodriguez
8. Peter Revson
9. Richie Ginther
10. Pedro Rodriguez

DOSBoot wrote:Don't forget the Gurney flap too. That had a significant factor in motorsports too. I remember watching a video interview with Stirling Moss, and he mentioned that he thought Dan Gurney was one of the best drivers never to become world champion.

Edited and added, I can't believe I forgot it in the first place. If I'm going to be outing my rabid man-crush on Dan Gurney, I should at least get the details right.

Jordan192 wrote:

DOSBoot wrote:Don't forget the Gurney flap too. That had a significant factor in motorsports too. I remember watching a video interview with Stirling Moss, and he mentioned that he thought Dan Gurney was one of the best drivers never to become world champion.

Edited and added, I can't believe I forgot it in the first place. If I'm going to be outing my rabid man-crush on Dan Gurney, I should at least get the details right.

Dan Gurney certainly had a significant impact in the motor racing world. Much of which continues to this very day. Phil Hill was also very significant as well, because he was the predessor to future North American drivers. Here's some good trivia I know so far.

Phil Hill:
First American to win a championship Formula 1 Race.
First American born driver to win the 24 Hours of Le Mans. (Which he won three times. In the famous Ferrari 250TR)
Won the 12 Hours of Sebering three times.
Twice Winner of 1000k at the Nurburgring, and Buenos Ares.
Last F1 driver to win in a front engined car.
Only repeat winner of the Italian Grand Prix in the 10 kilometer format in Formula 1.
Has the distinction of winning his first and last race in his entire racing career.

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:The American Cavalcade Of The 60s - From memory; Hill, Ginther, Gurney, Revson and, hmm, I think I've run out of memory. Anyway, all these guys won a race, Hill won a championship, be it in extremely unfortunate circumstances, all of these guys were battling it out with the best of Europe in a manner that looked easy. Gurney I believe also won a race in an All-American combo, the Eagle-Weslake I believe it was called, which, IIRC, mario said was fast but extremely fragile.

You're right that the Eagle-Weslake car did have a fair amount of potential, but at the same time it was very highly strung. It's also somewhat ironic that the All American victory was with a car powered by a British engine (Weslake, at least at the time, were based in East Sussex) - though, given how often parts failed, it's incredible that it held together for that long.
It's also worth noting that, until Kubica won in 2008, Gurney was the last driver to have won a race for a German manufacturer, having won the 1962 French GP in a Porsche 804 (admittedly it was helped by attrition and the fact that Ferrari had withdrawn their entries).

It has to be said, though, that whilst Gurney was an excellent driver (famously, Jim Clark's father said that he was the only driver that Jim truly feared), his work behind the drawing board has had the longer lasting impact on motorsport, and areas beyond it (such as the use of the Gurney flap in the aviation industry) - and in some ways I imagine that he'll be satisfied with that.

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:Ricardo Rodríguez - I don't know much about the Rodríguez brothers, so anything anyone can tell us would be appreciated.

Pedro Rodríguez - ditto. Won 2 Grands Prix.

Forix has an article on the Rodriguez brothers that is a good place to start - out of the two, Ricardo might be considered the faster but by far the more reckless (some went as far as to say disturbingly so), and he also developed a reputation for being very hard on his cars. Pedro, whilst the more cautious, was still very talented in his own right - he was one of the great sports car drivers of his era, and a brilliant wet weather driver - and, though fortunate to have won races in Formula 1, perhaps deserved to have achieved more than he did. http://forix.autosport.com/8w/rodriguez-brothers.html

mario wrote:

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:The American Cavalcade Of The 60s - From memory; Hill, Ginther, Gurney, Revson and, hmm, I think I've run out of memory. Anyway, all these guys won a race, Hill won a championship, be it in extremely unfortunate circumstances, all of these guys were battling it out with the best of Europe in a manner that looked easy. Gurney I believe also won a race in an All-American combo, the Eagle-Weslake I believe it was called, which, IIRC, mario said was fast but extremely fragile.

You're right that the Eagle-Weslake car did have a fair amount of potential, but at the same time it was very highly strung. It's also somewhat ironic that the All American victory was with a car powered by a British engine (Weslake, at least at the time, were based in East Sussex) - though, given how often parts failed, it's incredible that it held together for that long.
It's also worth noting that, until Kubica won in 2008, Gurney was the last driver to have won a race for a German manufacturer, having won the 1962 French GP in a Porsche 804 (admittedly it was helped by attrition and the fact that Ferrari had withdrawn their entries).

It has to be said, though, that whilst Gurney was an excellent driver (famously, Jim Clark's father said that he was the only driver that Jim truly feared), his work behind the drawing board has had the longer lasting impact on motorsport, and areas beyond it (such as the use of the Gurney flap in the aviation industry) - and in some ways I imagine that he'll be satisfied with that.

Here's some nice footage of the Eagle-Westlake and with Gurney commentating about racing at Spa-Francorchamps. (I wish I could have heard the engine more, but it is still is nice to look at.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOwmMLJh ... r_embedded

mario wrote:

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:The American Cavalcade Of The 60s - From memory; Hill, Ginther, Gurney, Revson and, hmm, I think I've run out of memory. Anyway, all these guys won a race, Hill won a championship, be it in extremely unfortunate circumstances, all of these guys were battling it out with the best of Europe in a manner that looked easy. Gurney I believe also won a race in an All-American combo, the Eagle-Weslake I believe it was called, which, IIRC, mario said was fast but extremely fragile.

All American victory was with a car powered by a British engine

Woops.

And double woops for not noticing the 'North' in The Greatest North American F1 Drivers, hence why I only put in Americans. What an idiot I am...

1) Mario Andretti
2) Gilles Villeneuve
3) Hermanos Rodriguez
4) Dan Gurney
5) Richie Ginther
6) Peter Revson
7) Jacques Villeneuve
8) Michael Andretti (as I explained in my first post)
9) Eddie Cheever
10) Harry Schell (if only because he cut half the track at Sebring and got away with it! )

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:3) Hermanos Rodriguez

Which one?

Jordan192 wrote:

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:3) Hermanos Rodriguez

Which one?

Both really. I can't decide.

Sergio Perez will be there in a few years time!!!

Scott Spppppeeeeeeddddd was poor. Nice lad though

Where is Allen Berg???

Jordan192 wrote:Dan Gurney:
- Won a Grand Prix in a car he'd designed
- Won Le Mans
- Once finished 7th in a Grand Prix after stopping mid-way through to... er... 'relieve' himself.
- Ran a highly succesful IMSA GTP team
- Ran a succesful Indycar team
- Invented the Gurney Flap
- Started the whole 'spraying the champagne' thing
- Was involved in development of, (and raced) both the Plymouth Superbird and AAR 'Cuda
- Built the Alligator motorcycle
- Is building the Project 56 DeltaWing for next year's Le Mans
- Is awesome

And is a really nice guy, always willing to tell stories and is always polite and appreciative of fans.

Faustus wrote:

Jordan192 wrote:Dan Gurney:
- Won a Grand Prix in a car he'd designed
- Won Le Mans
- Once finished 7th in a Grand Prix after stopping mid-way through to... er... 'relieve' himself.
- Ran a highly succesful IMSA GTP team
- Ran a succesful Indycar team
- Invented the Gurney Flap
- Started the whole 'spraying the champagne' thing
- Was involved in development of, (and raced) both the Plymouth Superbird and AAR 'Cuda
- Built the Alligator motorcycle
- Is building the Project 56 DeltaWing for next year's Le Mans
- Is awesome

And is a really nice guy, always willing to tell stories and is always polite and appreciative of fans.

He also did race commentary from time to time. Such as in this video for example. (At 4:15.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI2y4gm6R90