Grand Prix Rejects

Via autosport (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74346):

The FIA claims that McLaren may have broken the regulations on five counts, that:

* on 29 March, 2009, told the stewards of the Australian Grand Prix that no instructions were given to Hamilton in Car No. 1 to allow Trulli in Car no. 9 to pass when both cars were behind the safety car, knowing this statement to be untrue;

* procured its driver Hamilton the current World Champion, to support and confirm this untrue statement to the stewards;

* although knowing that as a direct result of its untrue statement to the stewards, another driver and a rival team had been unfairly penalised, made no attempt to rectify the situation either by contacting the FIA or otherwise;

* on 2 April, 2009, at a second hearing before the stewards of the Australian Grand Prix, (meeting in Malaysia) made no attempt to correct the untrue statement of 29 March but, on the contrary, continued to maintain that the statement was true, despite being allowed to listen to a recording of the team instructing Hamilton to let Trulli past and despite being given more than one opportunity to correct its false statement;

* on 2 April, 2009, at the second stewards' hearing, procured its driver Hamilton to continue to assert the truth of the false statement given to the stewards on 29 March, while knowing that what he was saying to the stewards was not true.

McLaren has already admitted that sporting director Dave Ryan and Hamilton lied to the stewards during the hearing in Australia, and a second meeting on the eve of the Malaysian Grand Prix.

Ryan has been suspended by the team, and Hamilton made an open apology for his actions after revealing that he had been advised by Ryan not to tell the full truth.

"I've never felt so bad," he said during an emotional press conference in Malaysia last week. "Try and put yourself in my position and understand that, like I said, I am not a liar. I have not gone through my life being a liar or dishonest. And so for people to say I am dishonest and for the world to think that....what can I say?"

It is possible that Hamilton could be called to testify at the WMSC hearing to clarify his involvement in the matter.

So, opinions: they had it coming, or is this another chapter of witch hunting?

You can't just lie to the stewards, get disqualified and then just say "Oh well". There has to be more. And this was on the first race.

Well, if you're going to cheat, at least try to be clever about it. How thick were they in thinking that they could get away with this in the current climate of open radio communications and telemetry?

As soon as I heard that Trulli had been booted out I smelt a rat as I thought that a guy with his experience and honesty wouldn't have done something like he was alleged to have done.

I've never liked McLaren, partly due to Ron Dennis' always snidey attitude, and this has just confirmed what I've always thought - that for all their bleating about Ferrari they're no better. They're welcome to Lewis as I don't like him very much either and lying isn't a great way to go about winning people like me over. I wasn't a massive fan of Senna either (again the attitude rather than driving ability) but at least when he crashed into Prost's Ferrari to win the title he didn't try to pretend it was all an accident!

Barbazza wrote:I wasn't a massive fan of Senna either (again the attitude rather than driving ability) but at least when he crashed into Prost's Ferrari to win the title he didn't try to pretend it was all an accident!

Same here! Times do change. Imagine the stewards trying to penalize Senna for that one (or Prost, in the previous year). I'd much rather Lewis - great driver if I ever saw one - had said "Well, we tried. Didn't work Sorry!" than the whining we had to put up with the whole weekend. Will McLaren and Lewis fall apart?

Well, considering the spying situation happened only a couple of years ago, they should be looking at a significant penalty. They are repeat offenders.

(I will start with the disclaimer that I am not a McLaren fan and have not been since I was about 7 years' old.)

The difficulty the WMSC will have proving is that the McLaren TEAM (as an entity) is in breach of the rules and regulations by attempting to dodge the stewards and falsely claim entitlement to 3rd place at the Grand Prix.

That Lewis has the hide to say that he expressly follows instructions given to him by members of the McLaren management - and to use this as an excuse for misleading the stewards - is, frankly, bullsh*t. Without calling into question his own mental ability (and I'm assuming he has undergone the McLaren lobotomy that is contractually required for the majority of their drivers to remove all semblance of personality and likeability ), surely he has enough of a brain to know right from wrong, and actually question the directive given to him on what to say to the stewards. I don't buy that at all. Clearly Hamilton is guilty at minimum of sheer bloody-minded stupidity.

Once they were found out, only Lewis Hamilton and Dave Ryan have admitted to acting contrary to the rules, and Martin Whitmarsh has expressly stated that Dave Ryan's actions (to instruct Lewis to alter his story to the stewards) were done without consultation with, or influence from, other members of the McLaren team management. This is the point that the WMSC will have difficulty in proving that the team has knowingly authorised or instructed this behaviour to occur, and McLaren will stand by that assertion as part of their defence.

If it's a case of two individuals of the team conspiring to break the rules, then the guilty individuals should be held accountable. The case of Nigel Stepney passing detailed designs of the 2007 Ferrari to the McLaren chief designer was also a case of two individuals acting without influence from their respective teams, but McLaren clearly gained a competitive advantage by the chief designer being in possession of these documents and disseminating the information among selected team members. Hence why McLaren copped the fine and had their Constructor's Championship points revoked. Whether or not this was a McLaren witch-hunt by the FIA is another matter open to debate entirely, and I won't contribute to that discussion in this post...

minrdi wrote:Once they were found out, only Lewis Hamilton and Dave Ryan have admitted to acting contrary to the rules, and Martin Whitmarsh has expressly stated that Dave Ryan's actions (to instruct Lewis to alter his story to the stewards) were done without consultation with, or influence from, other members of the McLaren team management. This is the point that the WMSC will have difficulty in proving that the team has knowingly authorised or instructed this behaviour to occur, and McLaren will stand by that assertion as part of their defence.

If it's a case of two individuals of the team conspiring to break the rules, then the guilty individuals should be held accountable. The case of Nigel Stepney passing detailed designs of the 2007 Ferrari to the McLaren chief designer was also a case of two individuals acting without influence from their respective teams, but McLaren clearly gained a competitive advantage by the chief designer being in possession of these documents and disseminating the information among selected team members. Hence why McLaren copped the fine and had their Constructor's Championship points revoked. Whether or not this was a McLaren witch-hunt by the FIA is another matter open to debate entirely, and I won't contribute to that discussion in this post...

One thing to bear in mind is that McLaren originally said that Stepney and Coughlan acted alone and that the information gained by Coughlan was not given to anybody else at McLaren. Then the de la Rosa/Alonso e-mails surfaced and they were forced to change their story.

When Whitmarsh says that Ryan and Hamilton acted alone (or, rather, that Ryan acted alone and Hamilton 'followed orders'), I'm just not sure I believe him.

Not admitting to the lies when they were played the tape of the radio communications seems incomprehensibly stupid. So stupid, in fact, that I struggle to believe that it's true. However, given that McLaren haven't denied the allegations, I assume it must be true.

It's sad that the FIA has to resort to interrogating self-interested drivers and teams just to figure out the correct race order. It's absurd that they can't just decide who should have been third and who fourth. They should never be asking drivers.

Does that indicate that the FIA (Max or anybody in there) thinks that the stewards of the meeting, FIA officials themselves, have yet again given the wrong penalty to Hamilton and McLaren? A sporting body must speak with a single voice, the regulations must be clear, and there must be some kind of common sense in those regulations so every one of those stewards who is not a lawyer of F1 law can do their job anyway.
At the moment though, we have Race Control (Charlie Whiting), who can speak out penalties during the race, the Stewards Of the Meeting (3 guys from different countries and their advisor Alan Donelly), who can speak out penalties after the race, and the World Motor Sport Council of the FIA and the FIA Court Of Appeal in Paris (Max's group of lawyers). If one says this and the other says that and they contradict themselves, this is indeed troublesome. McLaren are in such trouble now, but they had it coming by trying to cheat themselves into P3.
Both parties, McLaren and the FIA should let the whole thing rest and get their act together, even if that would mean no more headlines because of questionable decisions. But what sponsors want the least are questionable decisions.

Hmmmmm, an interesting situation. Not just the story but how quick people are to condemn the very second someone cries 'foul'. I believe the situation is more then meets the eye really. Formula 1 teams are not above cheating unfortunately, McLaren is no exception. Anyone remember Ferrari? Difference is Ferrari was good at getting away with it.

To me this seems to be McLaren got caught, so in a classic James Bond plot, they need a scapegoat to blame to take the heat off of Whitmarsh and the rest of the team. As for Lewis Hamilton's part in all of this, people are too hard on him I find. He's a very skilled driver, But unfortunately he's shown to be a very weak willed and naive lad. Basically he did as he was told, the calming fatherly influence of Ron Dennis is gone now, and he's left to fend for himself and quite frankly he's the proverbial 'puppy shivering in the rain'. Basically in his mind it's 'McLaren knows best' so he follows orders without question. A spine would help this fellow in the long run.

Next thing you know McLaren are going to be found guilty of NOT running a Brawn style diffuser and thrown out of the championship!

Does anyone think that this is some sort of witch hunt by Max, possibly in a effort in trying to identify those involved in the "setup" of what became Mosley-gate?

I, for one, am finding typing standing up quite difficult! But then again, I listen to F1R podcasts standing up.

This is a waste of time, as much mine as the FIA's.

Bert wrote:Next thing you know McLaren are going to be found guilty of NOT running a Brawn style diffuser and thrown out of the championship!

When the FIA sends the police to arrest Whitmarsh for fraud, then you know something funny is going on.

Most everywhere I read "McLaren have been invited to appear..." Can they actually decline? "I already have a hair-dresser appointment. I have scheduled open-heart surgery. I have not seen the final episode of Top Gear and was planning on watching it at that time. Doing laundry....."

Bert wrote:Most everywhere I read "McLaren have been invited to appear..." Can they actually decline? "I already have a hair-dresser appointment. I have scheduled open-heart surgery. I have not seen the final episode of Top Gear and was planning on watching it at that time. Doing laundry....."

I think it falls under mafia guidelines... in other words, you can't refuse.

Fortune rarely smiles on those that fail to show up for their court appearances...

Bert wrote:Does anyone think that this is some sort of witch hunt by Max, possibly in a effort in trying to identify those involved in the "setup" of what became Mosley-gate?

So Max instructed McLaren to lie just so that he could haul them up in front of the WMSC again? McLaren are simply reaping the consequences of their actions. You would have thought that a team which already been warned (and punished) for bringing the sport into disrepute would be more responsible in their actions.

Most everywhere I read "McLaren have been invited to appear..." Can they actually decline? "I already have a hair-dresser appointment. I have scheduled open-heart surgery. I have not seen the final episode of Top Gear and was planning on watching it at that time. Doing laundry....."

I would imagine that they don't have to appear, but that not doing so would not endear them to the WMSC judges.

I'm sure many other teams have lied to the stewards, but without direct contradictory evidence it's impossible to judge. In the Schumacher 'parking' incident in Monaco, everyone knew he'd done it on purpose, and that his explanation to the stewards was almost certainly a lie. The trouble is, it's his word against the stewards' opinion, and you can't prosecute someone for lying based on an opinion (OK lawyers, now's your chance to contradict me ). McLaren were caught in a lie with concrete evidence to back up the accusation.

The "Australian GP yellow flag overtaking affair" will surely keep the press busy until the other ongoing protest cases are closed, the ones against Williams, Toyota and Brawn on behalf of their diffusers and the one against Ferrari and Red Bull Racing on behalf of their underbody.
It seems that one effect of the cost cutting measures now is that teams have more money available for lawsuits in front of the WMSC.

One question is still open, though: After Trulli had overtaken Hamilton under yellow, did Toyota ask Race Control (Charlie Whiting) whether Trulli must let Hamilton pass again? They could have changed positions again before the race ended, and had they done so, the "affair" would never have happened. But in the way it actually turned out, Glock, their other driver, gained a place. So now Toyota got P3 and P4 whereas they would have gotten P4 and P5 if Charlie had said switch positions again. Doesn't that make them suspicious of cheating as well?

Personally, I'm not a McLaren fan, but it's the FIA's prejudices against them that have shown up in the loads of penalties they got last year, that makes me wish them good luck on the track now. That cannot be Max's goal if he were seeking his adversary from his own "gate" in the McLaren ranks, can it?

And yes, it was probably very naive of Hamilton to try getting away with this. This current "affair" is murky, but obvious, whereas Schumacher's parking incident in Monaco was blatant (and that comes from a Schumi supporter).

Since we all know or should know that the FIA always falls on the side of Ferrari, I wonder if this is an effort to make Ferrari not look as pathetic as it is right now.

So let's assume that the Malaysian GP results change and McLaren are disqualified from that race as well as from Australia. This will bump car #3, Felipe Massa, into the points.

Now let's assume that Brawn, Toyota, and Williams are also disqualified from the first two races for the diffusers.

Heidfeld will take the Malaysian GP, with Mark Webber and ... Felipe Massa will finish third, with Sebastien Bourdais in fourth, with Kimi Raikkonen fifth... and I think Bourdais, in a Ferrari powered car, might be leading the championship in a Minardi/Toro Rosso, but I'm not 100% sure on that. Either Bourdais or Heidfeld would be leading the championship.

Hmmm... conspiracy theorists arise? Is this Max Mosley's way of getting those troublesome McLaren boys out of the way because it was McLaren that set him up for his big sex scandal?

RejectSteve wrote:When the FIA sends the police to arrest Whitmarsh for fraud, then you know something funny is going on.

I was just kidding! http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=37511

Eccelstone believes that McLaren committed fraud for having their interesting interpretation of the truth.

The big issue for me is the treatment of Dave Ryan. This guy has been a McLaren employee for 35 years, but when the going gets tough they have been extremely quick to pin the blame on him, and finish his career. I wonder what the effect of this is within the team?

If its all Ryan's fault then he must have acted alone, without consulting anyone else in the team. In McLaren ????? In two separate stewards meetings ????? Remember this is the most control freak team of all time, they wouldn't let a team member fart without a CFD models of all the outcomes. But no-one thought to ask Ryan what happened in the stewards meeting, over a period of about five days ?

And Lewis isn't a liar, but he went into two separate stewards meetings and lied his face off. And he was very unhappy about this, but he didn't think to mention the fact to anyone else in McLaren until after he had been nailed.

And Whitmarsh told the same story as Lewis and Ryan to the media, right up until the point that the stewards published the proof that it was untrue.

Now, I'm not saying that Ryan hasn't been very stupid, but I just don't think its credible to pretend that he was acting on his own. Lewis and Whitmarsh are happy to pile the blame onto him, just so they can save their own skins. And thats the bit that smells about this.

At least when Senna or Schumi did their villain things, they were big enough to accept the blame and not to try and pin it on someone else in their own team.

I think half the problem here is that, McLaren ASKED Charlie Whiting if they needed to let Trulli back by them and Whiting said YES......

I'm not a McLaren supporter...but I can see where they're coming from in maintaining their story.....But I think whats in contention here is that there seems to be this big conspiracy that McLaren orchestrated this grand plan specifically to get Jarno Trulli DQ'd from Australia........and the fact is, they didn't......

Just how stupid do McLaren think everyone is?

Only Ryan and Hamilton were responsible for or knew about the lies?

They went to the stewards, and were promoted one place and no one asked them what they'd said.

Nor when Ryan and Hamilton were called to the stewards at Sepang did Whitmarsh or anyone else bother to ask why would need to clarify what they'd said the previous week. That just isn't credible.

I think half the problem here is that, McLaren ASKED Charlie Whiting if they needed to let Trulli back by them and Whiting said YES......

Actually, if you listen to the original transmissions, they had already (erroneously) told Lewis to let Trulli past before they'd had word back from Charlie.

I'm not a McLaren supporter...but I can see where they're coming from in maintaining their story.....But I think whats in contention here is that there seems to be this big conspiracy that McLaren orchestrated this grand plan specifically to get Jarno Trulli DQ'd from Australia........and the fact is, they didn't......

No, I don't think it's that at all. What seems to have happened is that they've lied in desperation - and subsequently stuck to their story, for whatever unfathomable reason - in order to try and get third back. No one's suggesting it's an orchestrated conspiracy to specifically get Trulli disqualified, but a lie of self-interest that would - as a side issue - not reverse the places, as they should have been, but in fact see Trulli knocked out of the points altogether, and his reputation damaged. This is the inexcusable part. If *only* McLaren and Hamilton were gaining from it, it would have been naughty at worst, but the fact that they were so willing, by omission, to allow Trulli to be so damaged is what they're really in trouble for.

fjackdaw wrote: but in fact see Trulli knocked out of the points altogether, and his reputation damaged. This is the inexcusable part. If *only* McLaren and Hamilton were gaining from it, it would have been naughty at worst, but the fact that they were so willing, by omission, to allow Trulli to be so damaged is what they're really in trouble for.

Well, yes, its obviously bad that they allowed Trulli to be damaged. But equally the stewards seem have applied a draconian penalty to Trulli on the say so of two McLaren guys, without bothering to study the evidence that would have easily been available to them.

After the first hearing Trulli was given a 25 second penalty, which is really just as severe as disqualifying him. And frankly, any reading of the transcipts shows that this all started as a cock-up, with neither driver knowing exactly what to do in the situation.

After, the second hearing Trulli was given back third place. But if was judged that he should not have overtaken in the first hearing, what has actually changed so far as Trulli is concerned?

The fact that Trulli was so damaged is a consequence of sloppy stewarding.

McLaren have been extremely stupid. But I hope the FIA resist the temptation to draw them over the coals for it. Or if they do, maybe they should also open the books and review those in the past who have stretched the truth in the stewards room. I wonder how many championships Schumi would be left with if this attitude was taken?

Well, yes, its obviously bad that they allowed Trulli to be damaged. But equally the stewards seem have applied a draconian penalty to Trulli on the say so of two McLaren guys, without bothering to study the evidence that would have easily been available to them.

Yes, a sort of 'shoot first and ask questions later' approach, except often without the asking questions part.