Grand Prix Rejects

http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... ing-party/

NBC and Will Buxton are all over Vettel for not attending Webber's going away party (which I'm sorry, shouldn't that be at the end of the year?). But what I don't understand is this, Webber is much more open about not liking Seb, so is it that big of a reach that he told Seb to bugger off? Why do you have to assume its Seb's fault? And yes, he probably shouldn't have hung out downstairs, but that's the teams paddock area. Where is he supposed to go?

I just don't understand all this RBR-Vettel hate. I know I'm biased, but Schumi never got anywhere near this level of BS during his run. What's different now?

I agree - why should Vettel feel any obligation to be there when Mark Webber has publicly stated he can't stand him? I wouldn't go to someone's party under those circumstances.

Wallio wrote:he probably shouldn't have hung out downstairs, but that's the teams paddock area. Where is he supposed to go?

I think it would have been awesome if Seb had gone over to Max Chilton's side of the paddock, and just hung out with Max.

Jocke1 wrote:

Wallio wrote:he probably shouldn't have hung out downstairs, but that's the teams paddock area. Where is he supposed to go?

I think it would have been awesome if Seb had gone over to Max Chilton's side of the paddock, and just hung out with Max.

Lol think of the scandal! VETTEL TO LEAVE RBR FOR MARUSSIA!!!!

Wallio wrote:I just don't understand all this RBR-Vettel hate. I know I'm biased, but Schumi never got anywhere near this level of BS during his run. What's different now?

I don't understand people who don't understand. Seriously.




And because Schumacher was clearly a top tier driver, whereas Vettel's somewhere around Button tier - good but not great. That, plus his general petulance, plus Webber's likableness are just a bad combination for popularity ratings. Also, I'll disagree that it's infected the mainstream media, as articles like this http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... -spa-spark show Vettel clearly has a considerable degree of respect within the media establishment. This article is more akin to celebrity gossip than Vettel dislike.

Jocke1 wrote:

Wallio wrote:he probably shouldn't have hung out downstairs, but that's the teams paddock area. Where is he supposed to go?

I think it would have been awesome if Seb had gone over to Max Chilton's side of the paddock, and just hung out with Max.

That would've been brilliant.

SgtPepper wrote:

Wallio wrote:I just don't understand all this RBR-Vettel hate. I know I'm biased, but Schumi never got anywhere near this level of BS during his run. What's different now?

I don't understand people who don't understand. Seriously.




And because Schumacher was clearly a top tier driver, whereas Vettel's somewhere around Button tier - good but not great. That, plus his general petulance, plus Webber's likableness are just a bad combination for popularity ratings. Also, I'll disagree that it's infected the mainstream media, as articles like this http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... -spa-spark show Vettel clearly has a considerable degree of respect within the media establishment. This article is more akin to celebrity gossip than Vettel dislike.

Jocke1 wrote:

Wallio wrote:he probably shouldn't have hung out downstairs, but that's the teams paddock area. Where is he supposed to go?

I think it would have been awesome if Seb had gone over to Max Chilton's side of the paddock, and just hung out with Max.

That would've been brilliant.

So, because he puts up a finger you hate him? You realize that's a very common celebration right? I drag Race, and every weekend the winners get their picture taken for the website. everyone does that. EVERYONE. They always have. And again, what's different than Schumi? He used to jump and yell. Much more arrogant IMO (Of course I believe a driver on the rostrum can do whatever he wants. I was the only one cool with Monterio flipping out at Indy in '05). And Button level? Please. Button could never win a race in a Toro Rosso, and Button could never score a point as a teenager in a car he had barely sat in previously. Hate him if you wish, but don't be ignorant of his massive talent.

SgtPepper wrote:

Wallio wrote:I just don't understand all this RBR-Vettel hate. I know I'm biased, but Schumi never got anywhere near this level of BS during his run. What's different now?

I don't understand people who don't understand. Seriously.

Fair enough, although I don't find Webber at all likeable. But do you think Vettel should have gone to his party?

Wallio wrote:

SgtPepper wrote:

Wallio wrote:I just don't understand all this RBR-Vettel hate. I know I'm biased, but Schumi never got anywhere near this level of BS during his run. What's different now?

I don't understand people who don't understand. Seriously.




And because Schumacher was clearly a top tier driver, whereas Vettel's somewhere around Button tier - good but not great. That, plus his general petulance, plus Webber's likableness are just a bad combination for popularity ratings. Also, I'll disagree that it's infected the mainstream media, as articles like this http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... -spa-spark show Vettel clearly has a considerable degree of respect within the media establishment. This article is more akin to celebrity gossip than Vettel dislike.

So, because he puts up a finger you hate him? You realize that's a very common celebration right? I drag Race, and every weekend the winners get their picture taken for the website. everyone does that. EVERYONE. They always have. And again, what's different than Schumi? He used to jump and yell. Much more arrogant IMO (Of course I believe a driver on the rostrum can do whatever he wants. I was the only one cool with Monterio flipping out at Indy in '05). And Button level? Please. Button could never win a race in a Toro Rosso, and Button could never score a point as a teenager in a car he had barely sat in previously. Hate him if you wish, but don't be ignorant of his massive talent.

Look I'm not going start Vettel bashing, I was merely trying to elucidate what you were asking about as I don't feel the Vettel hate that is so prevalent throughout the F1 fanbase has reached the F1 media as of yet. If anything it actually appears to try and be avoided, glossed over or explained away purely as pro-Ferrari or anti-German.

LellaLombardi wrote:Fair enough, although I don't find Webber at all likeable. But do you think Vettel should have gone to his party?

No I think it would've been strange, and even the existence of the article seems a trifle silly - Vettel's behaviour that led to Webber disliking him/quitting in the first place is what should be being criticised, not him failing to attend some party that he was actually right not to go to. Again, it just seems much more akin to celebrity gossip than actual F1 news.

SgtPepper wrote:Look I'm not going start Vettel bashing, I was merely trying to elucidate what you were asking about as I don't feel the Vettel hate that is so prevalent throughout the F1 fanbase has reached the F1 media as of yet. If anything it actually appears to try and be avoided, glossed over or explained away purely as pro-Ferrari or anti-German.

.

Fair enough, I'm not trying to bash or troll you (honest lol), I'm just curious. I asked what you don't like and you put up a picture of him giving "the finger". I'm just asking if that is the reason you don't like him (you would not be the first person to tell me that BTW.) while I personally would think it would be a silly reason, it would answer my question.

Wallio wrote:And Button level? Please. Button could never win a race in a Toro Rosso, and Button could never score a point as a teenager in a car he had barely sat in previously.

Now, I don't have a problem with the rest of your post, but this comparison is just silly.

First of all, I don't think Vettel's win in 2008 is all it's cracked up to be. Remember that Toro Rosso had taken a gamble in qualifying when set-ups had to be the same in qualifying and the race, so Vettel and Bourdais were the only ones with wet weather set-ups for the wet race, and Bourdais also started at the front and might have scored a podium if he hadn't had mechanical troubles at the start. Basically, Seb won because all the circumstances played into his hands. I don't see anyone hailing Olivier Panis as the king of the 90s because he won at Monaco 1996 in a Ligier.

Second, Button pretty much did do that. He was barely 20 on début in 2000 and scored a point for sixth in his second race and first finish. In fact, he was also sixth on début in Australia twelve laps from the end, but the engine blew up.

Finally, saying that Vettel had barely set in the Sauber isn't exactly true either. Vettel was already the team's third and test driver, had done four days of winter testing in 2007 and seven Friday practice sessions, including two in 2007, so he was pretty familiar with the car by that point.

While I will admit that Vettel is a very talented driver, he isn't as good as some people make him out to be once his success is put into perspective.

What I don't understand is why this Vettel-Hate-Gate crap has simply bombarded the whole world...

go_Rubens wrote:What I don't understand is why this Vettel-Hate-Gate crap has simply bombarded the whole world...

Because there a lot of inane people in the world.

If 2013 is the last year he wins a title (because you never know) you will find those same people rooting for him to get back to his best again and reminiscing about his glory days.

Wallio wrote:

SgtPepper wrote:Look I'm not going start Vettel bashing, I was merely trying to elucidate what you were asking about as I don't feel the Vettel hate that is so prevalent throughout the F1 fanbase has reached the F1 media as of yet. If anything it actually appears to try and be avoided, glossed over or explained away purely as pro-Ferrari or anti-German.

Fair enough, I'm not trying to bash or troll you (honest lol), I'm just curious. I asked what you don't like and you put up a picture of him giving "the finger". I'm just asking if that is the reason you don't like him (you would not be the first person to tell me that BTW.) while I personally would think it would be a silly reason, it would answer my question.

Ok I get you, and I've been criticised in the past for my anti-Vettel tirades on these boards so I'm trying to avoid them. It's not really 'the finger' that I think gets to people particularly, although that certainly salts the wounds, its more general demeanour, something intangible that is difficult to pinpoint, but that has also started to come through more during this season. I'd like to say it's the pathetic radio messages, but along those lines Button would be one of the least popular in the paddock. One could say it's poor treatment of a likeable team-mate, but then according to this measure Alonso would be universally loathed. One could say it's him being German, but at Silverstone of all places the cheers went up while another German took the lead. And one could even say it's his arguable lack of world-championship level talent, but returning to Button, Hill or even Massa (debatable) popularity, it certainly couldn't be pinned down on that either. You can't even say it's his consistent success, because as you've already stated, people may have been bored during the Schumacher years, but very few ever questioned his talent. So returning to my original point, after a lengthy and not terribly elucidating ramble, it's not exactly clear why Vettel is such a lightning rod of contempt, maybe it's a combination of all of these points, but personally I'm not convinced, I reckon it's more of a 'gut-feeling'. To give a couple of examples; Piers Morgan. Personally, I hardly find him charming, but as of yet I honestly don't understand the degree of contempt which he receives either - clearly there is something elusive about him that simply drives people to distraction. And here's my true obsession with the mysteries of the human mind; Emma Watson. I have loved her since the mid-2000s - she is a terrible person, she cannot act, she is awful. Yet for some intransigent, ethereal reason the sight of her still affects me like nobody else ever has, and other people either completely get it, or are utterly perplexed. We are slaves to biology.

"Helo. My name is Emma and i'm here to help Dr Baker forget about that Wolff woman..."

CoopsII wrote:
"Helo. My name is Emma and i'm here to help Dr Baker forget about that Wolff woman..."

dr baker will never get over Susie Wolff. But this came close so fair play CoopsII

tommykl wrote:

Wallio wrote:And Button level? Please. Button could never win a race in a Toro Rosso, and Button could never score a point as a teenager in a car he had barely sat in previously.

Now, I don't have a problem with the rest of your post, but this comparison is just silly.

First of all, I don't think Vettel's win in 2008 is all it's cracked up to be. Remember that Toro Rosso had taken a gamble in qualifying when set-ups had to be the same in qualifying and the race, so Vettel and Bourdais were the only ones with wet weather set-ups for the wet race, and Bourdais also started at the front and might have scored a podium if he hadn't had mechanical troubles at the start. Basically, Seb won because all the circumstances played into his hands. I don't see anyone hailing Olivier Panis as the king of the 90s because he won at Monaco 1996 in a Ligier.

Second, Button pretty much did do that. He was barely 20 on début in 2000 and scored a point for sixth in his second race and first finish. In fact, he was also sixth on début in Australia twelve laps from the end, but the engine blew up.

Finally, saying that Vettel had barely set in the Sauber isn't exactly true either. Vettel was already the team's third and test driver, had done four days of winter testing in 2007 and seven Friday practice sessions, including two in 2007, so he was pretty familiar with the car by that point.

While I will admit that Vettel is a very talented driver, he isn't as good as some people make him out to be once his success is put into perspective.

I will agree "having barely sat in it" is an exaggeration, but seriously, Button has proven he was a one-trick pony since his Title. And if the Torro Rosso was so perfectly set up for rain, why didn't Bourdais win, or even finish? Yes, he too qualified well, but couldn't bring it home. Many people also forget Fuji of 2007 where Seb was running 3rd before Hamilton took him out. And he finished the WDC 8th in a Torro Rosso in 2008 (versus 17th for Bourdais). So really he did excel in lesser equiptment.

SgtPepper wrote:

Wallio wrote:

SgtPepper wrote:Look I'm not going start Vettel bashing, I was merely trying to elucidate what you were asking about as I don't feel the Vettel hate that is so prevalent throughout the F1 fanbase has reached the F1 media as of yet. If anything it actually appears to try and be avoided, glossed over or explained away purely as pro-Ferrari or anti-German.

Fair enough, I'm not trying to bash or troll you (honest lol), I'm just curious. I asked what you don't like and you put up a picture of him giving "the finger". I'm just asking if that is the reason you don't like him (you would not be the first person to tell me that BTW.) while I personally would think it would be a silly reason, it would answer my question.

Ok I get you, and I've been criticised in the past for my anti-Vettel tirades on these boards so I'm trying to avoid them. It's not really 'the finger' that I think gets to people particularly, although that certainly salts the wounds, its more general demeanour, something intangible that is difficult to pinpoint, but that has also started to come through more during this season. I'd like to say it's the pathetic radio messages, but along those lines Button would be one of the least popular in the paddock. One could say it's poor treatment of a likeable team-mate, but then according to this measure Alonso would be universally loathed. One could say it's him being German, but at Silverstone of all places the cheers went up while another German took the lead. And one could even say it's his arguable lack of world-championship level talent, but returning to Button, Hill or even Massa (debatable) popularity, it certainly couldn't be pinned down on that either. You can't even say it's his consistent success, because as you've already stated, people may have been bored during the Schumacher years, but very few ever questioned his talent. So returning to my original point, after a lengthy and not terribly elucidating ramble, it's not exactly clear why Vettel is such a lightning rod of contempt, maybe it's a combination of all of these points, but personally I'm not convinced, I reckon it's more of a 'gut-feeling'. To give a couple of examples; Piers Morgan. Personally, I hardly find him charming, but as of yet I honestly don't understand the degree of contempt which he receives either - clearly there is something elusive about him that simply drives people to distraction. And here's my true obsession with the mysteries of the human mind; Emma Watson. I have loved her since the mid-2000s - she is a terrible person, she cannot act, she is awful. Yet for some intransigent, ethereal reason the sight of her still affects me like nobody else ever has, and other people either completely get it, or are utterly perplexed. We are slaves to biology.

This is probably the best explaination I have heard yet. Thank you for explaining it. I had a similar experience with Scott Speed, he wasn't very fast, was a total prick, had a stupid name, and IMO set back American drivers 15 years.......BUT I absoutely loved him. He was every American sterotype in the book, and I really liked that, even though I shouldn't have.

Now that he's more humble (not really saying much) and getting mostly unneeded flack, I don't like him very much anymore. And really I should, he actually has become rather sympathic these past few years take this example: he tried to qualify a car at Indy a few years back, told them it was a death trap and hopped out, they cry about "primadonna Scott is whinging again, put someone else in, who then bins it, Speed says Told ya so! and is totally slayed for not being "fully committeed" or a team player. But rather than feel bad for him, he bores me now.

Actually, you can take my view of RBR this way. I loved RBR from when they took over Jag. (I still have my original 2005 DC hat). It was a natural fit, I loved Red Bull the drink, I liked the Jag team, and Stewart before that. I had rooted for the RB-Audis in DTM and the old Cheever-Red Bull-Chevy team in the IRL as well. But RBR goes to NASCAR (which I like) and I was totally apathetic. I was actually happy when they killed off their sorry half-arsed attempt at a team. I still have no idea why.

Wallio wrote:And if the Torro Rosso was so perfectly set up for rain, why didn't Bourdais win, or even finish?

He was 4th on the grid but when he slipped at the start the anti-stall system failed and Seb was left stranded, finished 2 laps down or something. If the anti-stall had worked, Bourdais would have been able to rejoin the race and as Brundle said, could have made it an STR 1-2. Bourdais' loss was not entirely his fault.

Wallio wrote:And he finished the WDC 8th in a Torro Rosso in 2008 (versus 17th for Bourdais). So really he did excel in lesser equiptment.

He did but even though I admit he is a great driver, you have to realise Bourdais was unlucky.

On debut in Australia, he was set for 4th (which would have put him out of reject status!). OK, I know Bourdais was lucky to be there at all - that race was one of remarkable attrition - but his mistake free driving put him there. With just a few laps to go, the transmission/engine failed and Bourdais was left 7th.

Half a year later, in Belgium, Bourdais outqualified Vettel (at Spa, of all places!!!) and stayed out on slicks to rise to 3rd at the end. Had he pitted for inters/wets like some others, he would have had less of a chance, so either way, this was an own goal. He was devastated to finish P7 behind Vettel.

I mentioned Italy earlier.

Finally, in Japan, Seb beat Vettel in the first corner melee and even led the race before pitting. But he tagged Massa exiting the pits, spinning the Ferrari. Bourdais came home in a best ever 6th place, only to given a time penalty that put out of the points and behind Vettel again, in 10th. Many people thought the penalty was unfair.

Australia: 4th
Belgium: 3rd
Italy: 1st - 4th
Japan: 6th

19 to 24 points to Vettel's 30 to 35 points.

good_Ralf wrote:

Wallio wrote:And if the Torro Rosso was so perfectly set up for rain, why didn't Bourdais win, or even finish?

He was 4th on the grid but when he slipped at the start the anti-stall system failed and Seb was left stranded, finished 2 laps down or something. If the anti-stall had worked, Bourdais would have been able to rejoin the race and as Brundle said, could have made it an STR 1-2. Bourdais' loss was not entirely his fault.

Wallio wrote:And he finished the WDC 8th in a Torro Rosso in 2008 (versus 17th for Bourdais). So really he did excel in lesser equiptment.

He did but even though I admit he is a great driver, you have to realise Bourdais was unlucky.

On debut in Australia, he was set for 4th (which would have put him out of reject status!). OK, I know Bourdais was lucky to be there at all - that race was one of remarkable attrition - but his mistake free driving put him there. With just a few laps to go, the transmission/engine failed and Bourdais was left 7th.

Half a year later, in Belgium, Bourdais outqualified Vettel (at Spa, of all places!!!) and stayed out on slicks to rise to 3rd at the end. Had he pitted for inters/wets like some others, he would have had less of a chance, so either way, this was an own goal. He was devastated to finish P7 behind Vettel.

I mentioned Italy earlier.

Finally, in Japan, Seb beat Vettel in the first corner melee and even led the race before pitting. But he tagged Massa exiting the pits, spinning the Ferrari. Bourdais came home in a best ever 6th place, only to given a time penalty that put out of the points and behind Vettel again, in 10th. Many people thought the penalty was unfair.

Australia: 4th
Belgium: 3rd
Italy: 1st - 4th
Japan: 6th

19 to 24 points to Vettel's 30 to 35 points.

He still was outshown by his teammate (Vettel). Which in the case of drivers "we" (meaning the general public) like, is all that matters.

Wallio, are you implying that it is going to the "Hate Dumb" territory? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HateDumb)

Wallio wrote:Lol think of the scandal! VETTEL TO LEAVE RBR FOR MARUSSIA!!!!

More like Chilton to leave Marussia for RBR. Now we might see what Luca Badoer or Gaston Mazzacane could have done in a top quality car.

FMecha wrote:Wallio, are you implying that it is going to the "Hate Dumb" territory? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HateDumb)

Yes and No. I'm honestly curious as to the hate. I can't seem to grasp it. Others wer much easier:

Schumi was hated because he was a Boring Invincible Hero http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ncibleHero (if were using TV Tropes here ) and that makes sense.

Ferrari was of course The Empire http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheEmpire

Ron Dennis is hated for being a "Stop Having Fun Guy" http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... vingFunGuy

And everyone hates Bernie because of all his Batman Gambits http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BatmanGambit
and for being the Emperor http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheEmperor

But what is Vettel? RBR's Creator's Pet perhaps? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... .TheWesley

SgtPepper wrote: Emma Watson.... she cannot act, she is awful.

Hold it right there. She was great as Hermione. Fact.

Jocke1 wrote:

SgtPepper wrote: Emma Watson.... she cannot act, she is awful.

Hold it right there. She was great as Hermione. Fact.

Ok then Jocke1 why was she good and SgtPepper why was she awful?

Admit it, you're all looking for more excuses to post pictures of Emma Watson, aren't you?

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:

CoopsII wrote:
"Helo. My name is Emma and i'm here to help Dr Baker forget about that Wolff woman..."

dr baker will never get over Susie Wolff. But this came close so fair play CoopsII

You know what? There is someone in the F1 paddock I prefer to Susie Wolff! Shock horror, I know!

Claire Williams...

SgtPepper wrote:Ok I get you, and I've been criticised in the past for my anti-Vettel tirades on these boards so I'm trying to avoid them. It's not really 'the finger' that I think gets to people particularly, although that certainly salts the wounds, its more general demeanour, something intangible that is difficult to pinpoint, but that has also started to come through more during this season. I'd like to say it's the pathetic radio messages, but along those lines Button would be one of the least popular in the paddock. One could say it's poor treatment of a likeable team-mate, but then according to this measure Alonso would be universally loathed. One could say it's him being German, but at Silverstone of all places the cheers went up while another German took the lead. And one could even say it's his arguable lack of world-championship level talent, but returning to Button, Hill or even Massa (debatable) popularity, it certainly couldn't be pinned down on that either. You can't even say it's his consistent success, because as you've already stated, people may have been bored during the Schumacher years, but very few ever questioned his talent. So returning to my original point, after a lengthy and not terribly elucidating ramble, it's not exactly clear why Vettel is such a lightning rod of contempt, maybe it's a combination of all of these points, but personally I'm not convinced, I reckon it's more of a 'gut-feeling'. To give a couple of examples; Piers Morgan. Personally, I hardly find him charming, but as of yet I honestly don't understand the degree of contempt which he receives either - clearly there is something elusive about him that simply drives people to distraction. And here's my true obsession with the mysteries of the human mind; Emma Watson. I have loved her since the mid-2000s - she is a terrible person, she cannot act, she is awful. Yet for some intransigent, ethereal reason the sight of her still affects me like nobody else ever has, and other people either completely get it, or are utterly perplexed. We are slaves to biology.

For what it is worth, I suppose that part of it is that, given that Red Bull have openly stated that they want Vettel to be the public face of the team, that in turn Vettel has become the focal point for the anger that many have for the team that then reflects onto their most prominently displayed protégé.

Secondly, I think that some of it ties into the fact that, at times, Vettel has come across as wanting to be liked by the public. Whether that is actually the case or a consequence of the way he has been portrayed in the press, at times it feels like he is trying to be every thing to every person.
That perceived inconsistency in character is something that creates a bit of disquiet and dissonance - we have the twin images of the affable, jokey guy who wants to enjoy himself set against the colder, more ruthless and self centred side that has lead many to compare him to the darker side of Schumacher. The problem comes when it looks like he tries to cover one side up by moving to the other - the events of the Malaysian GP being a case in point.

We saw that he firstly tried to gloss over events by saying it was unintentional, that he did not know what "Multi-21" meant and saying he was sorry for what happened - when the media then revealed that he knew full well what "Multi-21" meant after radio messages of him saying "Multi-12" to Horner (a message that Horner refused), he then went to the other extreme and talked up about how he deserved the victory more than Mark. Whilst he seems to have tried to appease both sides in that instance, in the end those hoping for contrition and saying that the team is more important than the driver were put off by his backtracking, whilst those who felt he was right to push for the win felt that his later comments were undermined by his earlier ones.

Added to that, I suppose that there may be some sense of resentment given Vettel's current situation, particularly to do with the sheer resources available to Red Bull - a team that is effectively the richest in the sport (Ferrari might have a slightly bigger budget but has to run its own engine division in house, whereas Red Bull effectively has free engines from Renault) and the fact that Vettel has an unusually close relationship with Bernie, giving Red Bull more leverage than normal with FOM in turn.

The photographer Darren Heath has commented that he feels that, with a number of drivers, especially the older drivers in the field, having had a fairly tough route into F1, the fact that Vettel had his junior career smoothed out thanks to support from Red Bull, not to mention the subsequent success that has enjoyed, seems to have riled others and created a sense of resentment against him. The fact that Webber, his team mate, had to resort to begging family friends for funding to continue racing in his junior career, creates an especially sharp contrast and perhaps makes that sense of bitterness over Vettel's relatively easy path into the sport by comparison even more profound.

He commented that Hamilton, when he entered the sport in 2007, was a focal point of much resentment from the other drivers that lead to several of them consistently trying to humiliate him in public as revenge, especially at the British GP (an experience he feels explains why Hamilton seems to have turned away from his fellow drivers). He has suggested that perhaps, in turn, Vettel's position means that, to a certain extent, he is now in the position that Hamilton was in 2007, something which is picked up in turn by the wider press and then helps create an image of a figure disliked because of his privileged position.

That image alone is enough to explain why Vettel didn't go to the "leavers party".

Look at the shoulder gap between the "teammates" and then how close Vettel and Hulk are.

Ice Ice Baby.

I like Webber.

mario wrote:

SgtPepper wrote:Ok I get you, and I've been criticised in the past for my anti-Vettel tirades on these boards so I'm trying to avoid them. It's not really 'the finger' that I think gets to people particularly, although that certainly salts the wounds, its more general demeanour, something intangible that is difficult to pinpoint, but that has also started to come through more during this season. I'd like to say it's the pathetic radio messages, but along those lines Button would be one of the least popular in the paddock. One could say it's poor treatment of a likeable team-mate, but then according to this measure Alonso would be universally loathed. One could say it's him being German, but at Silverstone of all places the cheers went up while another German took the lead. And one could even say it's his arguable lack of world-championship level talent, but returning to Button, Hill or even Massa (debatable) popularity, it certainly couldn't be pinned down on that either. You can't even say it's his consistent success, because as you've already stated, people may have been bored during the Schumacher years, but very few ever questioned his talent. So returning to my original point, after a lengthy and not terribly elucidating ramble, it's not exactly clear why Vettel is such a lightning rod of contempt, maybe it's a combination of all of these points, but personally I'm not convinced, I reckon it's more of a 'gut-feeling'. To give a couple of examples; Piers Morgan. Personally, I hardly find him charming, but as of yet I honestly don't understand the degree of contempt which he receives either - clearly there is something elusive about him that simply drives people to distraction. And here's my true obsession with the mysteries of the human mind; Emma Watson. I have loved her since the mid-2000s - she is a terrible person, she cannot act, she is awful. Yet for some intransigent, ethereal reason the sight of her still affects me like nobody else ever has, and other people either completely get it, or are utterly perplexed. We are slaves to biology.

For what it is worth, I suppose that part of it is that, given that Red Bull have openly stated that they want Vettel to be the public face of the team, that in turn Vettel has become the focal point for the anger that many have for the team that then reflects onto their most prominently displayed protégé.

Secondly, I think that some of it ties into the fact that, at times, Vettel has come across as wanting to be liked by the public. Whether that is actually the case or a consequence of the way he has been portrayed in the press, at times it feels like he is trying to be every thing to every person.
That perceived inconsistency in character is something that creates a bit of disquiet and dissonance - we have the twin images of the affable, jokey guy who wants to enjoy himself set against the colder, more ruthless and self centred side that has lead many to compare him to the darker side of Schumacher. The problem comes when it looks like he tries to cover one side up by moving to the other - the events of the Malaysian GP being a case in point.

We saw that he firstly tried to gloss over events by saying it was unintentional, that he did not know what "Multi-21" meant and saying he was sorry for what happened - when the media then revealed that he knew full well what "Multi-21" meant after radio messages of him saying "Multi-12" to Horner (a message that Horner refused), he then went to the other extreme and talked up about how he deserved the victory more than Mark. Whilst he seems to have tried to appease both sides in that instance, in the end those hoping for contrition and saying that the team is more important than the driver were put off by his backtracking, whilst those who felt he was right to push for the win felt that his later comments were undermined by his earlier ones.

Added to that, I suppose that there may be some sense of resentment given Vettel's current situation, particularly to do with the sheer resources available to Red Bull - a team that is effectively the richest in the sport (Ferrari might have a slightly bigger budget but has to run its own engine division in house, whereas Red Bull effectively has free engines from Renault) and the fact that Vettel has an unusually close relationship with Bernie, giving Red Bull more leverage than normal with FOM in turn.

The photographer Darren Heath has commented that he feels that, with a number of drivers, especially the older drivers in the field, having had a fairly tough route into F1, the fact that Vettel had his junior career smoothed out thanks to support from Red Bull, not to mention the subsequent success that has enjoyed, seems to have riled others and created a sense of resentment against him. The fact that Webber, his team mate, had to resort to begging family friends for funding to continue racing in his junior career, creates an especially sharp contrast and perhaps makes that sense of bitterness over Vettel's relatively easy path into the sport by comparison even more profound.

He commented that Hamilton, when he entered the sport in 2007, was a focal point of much resentment from the other drivers that lead to several of them consistently trying to humiliate him in public as revenge, especially at the British GP (an experience he feels explains why Hamilton seems to have turned away from his fellow drivers). He has suggested that perhaps, in turn, Vettel's position means that, to a certain extent, he is now in the position that Hamilton was in 2007, something which is picked up in turn by the wider press and then helps create an image of a figure disliked because of his privileged position.

Some very interesting comments about Hamilton I wasn't aware of, and I agree with you completely about Vettel also being the face of all that is disliked about Red Bull due to his face being the public representation of the team, much as Newey has become the public face of the entire design team.

Personally, I can't help but feel my prior point about Schumacher can also remain relevant in regards to the true crux of the negative sentiment towards Vettel; I cannot help but feel that the Vettel would not be such a despised figure if such a considerable proportion of the F1 fandom actually rated his talents as a driver, I may be wrong but that just seems to be the crux of the issue. Fans of his will continue to quote the admittedly impressive sounding statistics, and critics will point out their considerable shortcomings in actually proving his mettle, and the cycle will continue ad infinitum.

And if no-one objects I'd like to use celebrating my 100th post as an excuse to post more Emma Watson.

LellaLombardi wrote:

SgtPepper wrote:

Wallio wrote:I just don't understand all this RBR-Vettel hate. I know I'm biased, but Schumi never got anywhere near this level of BS during his run. What's different now?

I don't understand people who don't understand. Seriously.

Fair enough, although I don't find Webber at all likeable. But do you think Vettel should have gone to his party?

I think Vettel was damned if he went and damned if he didn't. If he had gone I'm sure there'd be some people out there saying he only went to stir things up, or to troll Webber. Whatever he did, someone would have complained about something.
Not to mention he'd likely feel awkward going to the party and awkward publicly not going. (Although he might not feel awkward. I would be, but then I'm not Vettel)

Every human being speaking German and not a fan of Vettel does understand why there is so much hate against him.

Example A: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jzVmuT2XsM
Example B: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-STDZZdibg

He smiles a lot and seems to be the son-in-law every mother dreams of. But believe me: His phrasing and diction is quite pretentious and snotty.

The funny thing is: when he talks english, even I start to like this bloke...

For example Schumacher: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1SSfvX3c4s
He's talks in a different way then Vettel.

Enough with the Emma Watson pics, it's too much of a good thing

But yeah, I must say, the Vettel hatred is something which has come up since last year (to a bigger extent). Mostly, they consist of Alonso fans because Vettel stole the title from Alonso last year in the closing stages with a clearly faster car, I don't dispute that. Calling Vettel a 'douchebag' (very common) just because he celebrates his wins (whereas morose Hamilton only has Nicole on his mind after the wins) is completely misplaced. However, some people have been incredibly xenophobic, calling Vettel a "N***" and other variants of that N-word. In my mind, this is downright ugly, and should not be tolerated AT ALL. I know, freedom of speech is a good thing, but it must be exercised with a certain, acceptable degree of responsibility and decency. There is no responsibility in calling a German a "N***", because that person is actually chastising a whole country which has worked hard to get out of that image, and those dark times. Similarly, booing Vettel when he just had a retirement was almost just as bad.

I'm reminded of Ron Dennis's words, circa 1998, "Everybody likes a winner, but no one likes a consistent winner". Very true. Red Bull have worked hard pre-2009 to work according to the new rules introduced in 2009, and the fact that they've managed to keep that performance level going for so many years, instead of falling by the wayside like Brawn/Mercedes (in 2010-2012 they were nowhere close to their 2009 performance), is something that should, if not celebrated, at least be respected. It's just not a case of Red Bull having Newey..Newey's certainly one of the greatest in F1 of all time, but he has had poor patches, like with McLaren. Vettel is a driver who has certainly developed himself from the 2010-level, and is now a trememndous competitor, and must be respected too. The Vettel haters are just showing themselves in poor light (sour grapes phenomenon) thus. The sport can do without these F1 fans, I think.

So consider this:

If Vettel hadn't won the 2010 WDC (eg advertising his genius, but making him look fallible) loosing out to Webber (which would have removed a great deal of the internal team favoritism charge) would we be in the same situation?

Boomstick wrote:So consider this:

If Vettel hadn't won the 2010 WDC (eg advertising his genius, but making him look fallible) loosing out to Webber (which would have removed a great deal of the internal team favoritism charge) would we be in the same situation?

Yes. The team was already building itself around Vettel for 2011-onwards regardless of how 2010 went.

I think the only thing as irritating as the people who constantly bash on Vettel unfairly, are the people who constantly bash on people who criticise Vettel

Boomstick wrote:So consider this:

If Vettel hadn't won the 2010 WDC (eg advertising his genius, but making him look fallible) loosing out to Webber (which would have removed a great deal of the internal team favoritism charge) would we be in the same situation?

Silverstone 2010. That is all.

I hate Red Bull more than Vettel, even though he has come across as a petulant child, and very fake, but then again he's young. Newey acts like a ponce, Horner is a spineless James Hunt, and Helmut Marko is just the devil incarnate. They really shoot themselves in the foot PR wise by employing the turgid little shite that is Dr Helmut Marko.

Minardi Man wrote:I think the only thing as irritating as the people who constantly bash on Vettel unfairly, are the people who constantly bash on people who criticise Vettel

Or people like you who bash on the people who bash on the people who bash on Vettel!

On the topic of the booing in Monza, we're now getting to the point where di Montezemolo has said that it would have been better if there had been less jeering from the crowd towards Vettel - it's kind of odd to see their rivals now stepping in on the matter too. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/09/10/m ... el-booing/

Boomstick wrote:So consider this:

If Vettel hadn't won the 2010 WDC (eg advertising his genius, but making him look fallible) loosing out to Webber (which would have removed a great deal of the internal team favoritism charge) would we be in the same situation?

[/quote]
As an aside, Brundle happened to speak to a number of those in the crowd he had seen booing Vettel in Monza and asked them why they were doing that. Most of the replies ultimately came back to the fallout from Malaysia and "Multi-21" - not necessarily just because of the act, but for the way that Vettel tried to mislead people in his apology in Malaysia by claiming he didn't know what the instruction meant and then promptly tore up that apology in China when that defence was shown to be false. Those comments would suggest that, even if he had not won in 2010, Vettel might well still remain unpopular given that most cite his more recent behaviour as a reason for their criticism.

CoopsII wrote:

Minardi Man wrote:I think the only thing as irritating as the people who constantly bash on Vettel unfairly, are the people who constantly bash on people who criticise Vettel

Or people like you who bash on the people who bash on the people who bash on Vettel!

Or people like you, who....actually nevermind >< lol