Grand Prix Rejects

Posted: **26 Feb 2014, 16:12**

I went through my pile of old mags and rediscovered this article.
Yes, I know. They say it is the 'once-and-for-all verdict' (they made a list in 1997, too) ... but I say, nuts to that.
That was July 1999. Time to live in the now.
No list is the same for long, let alone 15 years!
At the making of this F1 Racing's Top 100 list, Kimi had just finished his karting career, while Vettel was still driving gokarts for quite a few more years (he didn't compete in a single-seater formula car until 2003).
And Michael had only won two out of his seven WDC's.

So how should it look now in 2014?

The list ^^^^

1. Jim Clark
2. Juan Fangio
3. Jackie Stewart
4. Michael Schumacher
5. Ayrton Senna
6. Alain Prost
7. Alberto Ascari
8. Stirling Moss
9. John Surtees
10. Jack Brabham
11. Nigel Mansell
12. Jochen Rindt
13. Damon Hill
14. Nelson Piquet
15. Graham Hill
16. James Hunt
17. Giuseppe Farina
18. Niki Lauda
19. Emerson Fittipaldi
20. Denny Hulme
21. Jacques Villeneuve
22. Mike Hawthorn
23. Ronnie Peterson
24. Jody Scheckter
25. Gerhard Berger
26. Dan Gurney
27. Bruce McLaren
28. Jacky Ickx
29. Carlos Reutemann
30. Mika Hakkinen
31. Mario Andretti
32. Froilan Gonzalez
33. Patrick Depailler
34. Clay Regazzoni
35. Alan Jones
36. Jean Alesi
37. Tony Brooks
38. Keke Rosberg
39. Chris Amon
40. Gilles Villeneuve
41. Phil Hill
42. Jacques Laffite
43. David Coulthard
44. Riccardo Patrese
45. Richie Ginther
46. Didier Pironi
47. Carlos Pace
48. Michele Alboreto
49. Rene Arnoux
50. Thierry Boutsen

51. Patrick Tambay
52. Innes Ireland
53. Lorenzo Bandini
54. John Watson
55. Elio de Angelis
56. Heinz-Harald Frentzen
57. Ralf Schumacher
58. Peter Arundell
59. Jean-Pierre Jabouille
60. Luigi Musso
61. Pedro Rodriguez
62. Peter Revson
63. Derek Warwick
64. Rubens Barrichello
65. Paul Frere
66. Jean Behra
67. Olivier Panis
68. Alessandro Nannini
69. Jean-Pierre Beltoise
70. Francois Cevert
71. Robert Manzon
72. Giancarlo Fisichella
73. Eugenio Castellotti
74. Mike Spence
75. Andrea de Cesaris
76. Peter Collins
77. Wolfgang von Trips
78. Eddie Irvine
79. Piers Courage
80. Jo Siffert
81. Willy Mairesse
82. Tom Pryce
83. Maurice Trintignant
84. Vittorio Brambilla
85. Martin Brundle
86. Luigi Villoresi
87. Bob Anderson
88. Tony Brise
89. Jo Bonnier
90. Jean-Pierre Jarier
91. Gianni Morbidelli
92. Ludovico Scarfiotti
93. Mark Donohue
94. Harry Schell
95. Eddie Cheever
96. Teo Fabi
97. Pierluigi Martini
98. Johnny Herbert
99. Stefano Modena
100. Mika Salo

F1 Racing explains that the rankings are based on driver and car performances.
They "only rated drivers against the backdrop of their own era".

From the 1997 list they made to the 1999 list above, F1 Racing moved Giuseppe Farina from the 35th spot, to the 17th spot.

I'm not sure how that works, it's not like he did something new that could be considered worthy
of such a giant leap forward. He was a 50's driver, so how could two years between '97 and '99 make such a difference?
There were different journos compiling the stats and rankings both times, so that is one explanation.

And where does Jacques Villeneuve belong today compared to 1999? Should he be ahead of his father?
Shouldn't John Watson, Rubens Barrichello and Eddie Irvine be a bit higher than they are?
We need to correct this by making a true 100 list that actually works.

Promotions?
Relegations?

Tempting as it is to include Max Chilton and put him at the top of the list,
perhaps we could start a separate thread for the 100 Greatest F1 Rejects.
So as to keep the lists created below realistic.

Posted: **26 Feb 2014, 16:24**

I can't even create a top 10, best I can do is.

1. Alain Prost
2-5. Some order of Jim Clark, Juan Manuel Fangio, Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher
6. Jackie Stewart
7. Niki Lauda

I honestly don't know after that.

Posted: **26 Feb 2014, 19:52**

1997 list was based on emotions while 1999 was based on stats, that's how I remember it being explained. That explains some major changes out there.

Posted: **26 Feb 2014, 21:28**

The polls of recent years by the BBC and Autosport rated Senna at No.1 from drivers such as Fangio and then Schumacher (M.).

I'm too lazy to come up with a list so I usually base my opinions around those two lists.

Posted: **27 Feb 2014, 09:28**

I remember the F1 Racing magazine did the new top 100 list sometime after 2007, but I have lost it. Remembering top off from my head is:
1. Senna
2. Schumacher
3-100. Forget

Posted: **27 Feb 2014, 10:36**

AxelP800 wrote:I remember the F1 Racing magazine did the new top 100 list sometime after 2007, but I have lost it. Remembering top off from my head is:
1. Senna
2. Schumacher
3-100. Forget

I think it was 2008 and Raikkonen was somewhere in the TOP 10 in that list. I believe his winning form deteriorated just after that list was published :lol:

Posted: **27 Feb 2014, 11:15**

AxelP800 wrote:I remember the F1 Racing magazine did the new top 100 list sometime after 2007, but I have lost it. Remembering top off from my head is:
1. Senna
2. Schumacher
3-100. Forget

The only thing Ii can truthfully remember off the top of my head was that Thierry Boutsen was 75th. Trust me,I remember the weirdest things.

Posted: **27 Feb 2014, 17:29**

That top 100 is weird, somehow Frère and Mairesse are in it, but the most succesful and talented belgian driver from that era, Gendebien, is nowhere to be seen. Now these two aren't bad drivers by any means, but top 100 all time? No way! Especially not wild Willy, who was the De Cesaris of the sixties.

Posted: **27 Feb 2014, 21:50**

good_Ralf wrote:
AxelP800 wrote:I remember the F1 Racing magazine did the new top 100 list sometime after 2007, but I have lost it. Remembering top off from my head is:
1. Senna
2. Schumacher
3-100. Forget

I think it was 2008 and Raikkonen was somewhere in the TOP 10 in that list. I believe his winning form deteriorated just after that list was published

I still have that mag!

Sebastian Vettel was number 80 (well he had only driven about 12 races or so at the time), but it does make me laugh considering how successful he's now become.

In 2008 he was behind such non-legends such as: Nick Heidfeld, Jarno Trulli Johnny Herbert (Herbert for god's sake!!!

), HH Frentzen, Eddie Irvine, Heikki Kovalainen (that was just before he got his backside whipped by Hamilton), Takuma Sato, Pedro De La Rosa (LOL), Half Schumacher, and best of all he's 25 places lower than Mark Webber. Not bad for a #2 driver.

That list is really biased towards (at the time) current and recent drivers though. Nick Heidfeld ranked above Mike Hawthorn!!

Posted: **27 Feb 2014, 22:04**

I've dug it out as here's the full top 100 (May 2008)

1. Senna
2. Michael Schumacher
3. Fangio
4. Prost
5. Clark
6. Stewart
7. Raikkonen
8. Hakkinen
9. Gilles Villeneuve
10. Lauda
11. Mansell
12. Alonso
13. Moss
14. Piquet (senior obviously)
15. Hamilton
16. Ascari
17. Brabham (Jack obviously)
18. Graham Hill
19. Damon Hill
20. Hunt
21. E Fittipaldi
22. Keke Rosberg
23. Peterson
24. Andretti (Mario obviously)
25. Rindt
26. Surtees
27. Alesi
28. McLaren
29. Barrichello
30. Berger
31. Cevert
32. Farina
33. Ickx
34. Reutemann
25. Bellof
36. Phil Hill
37. Jones
38. Pedro Rodriguez
39. Brooks
40. Coulthard
41. Jacques Villeneuve
42. Button
43. Massa
44. Montoya
45. Scheckter
46. Amon
47. Gurney
48. Pryce
49. Heidfeld
50, Kubica (interesting that the two teammates at the time were enxt to each other)
51. De Angelis
52. Patrese
53. Hawthorn
54. Nico Rosberg
55. Webber
56. Trulli
57. Nannini
58. Herbert
59. Frentzen
60. Arnoux
61. Hulme
62. Regazzoni
63. Siffert
64. Bandini
65. Von Trips
66. Pironi
67. Collins
68. Ralf Schumacher
69. Irvine
70. Mass
71. Fagioli
72. Revson
73. Bonnier
74. Stuart Lewis-Evans (I'd never heard of him when I first read it)
75. Boutsen
76. Frank Gardner (who?)
77. Kovalainen
78. Sato
79. De La Rosa
80. Vettel :lol:

81. Hailwood
82. Jarier
83. Modena
84. Watson
85. Gonzalez
86. Depailler
87. Alboreto
88. Nilsson
89. Verstappen
90. Salo
91. Fisichella
92. Lombardi
93. Johansson
94. Brundle
95. Tambay
96. Laffite
97. Panis
98. Purley
99. Williamson (another ironic two drivers being next to each other)
100. Wurz

Couldn't be bothered to type out first names as well but had to when there are families in there!! (Though Bruno Senna isn't no 1 come to think of it)!!

Posted: **27 Feb 2014, 22:08**

That list could well have been called the 100 most famous drivers as of 2008. I mean really, Lella Lombardi in 92nd spot?!

Posted: **27 Feb 2014, 22:34**

good_Ralf wrote:That list could well have been called the 100 most famous drivers as of 2008. I mean really, Lella Lombardi in 92nd spot?!

Salo and Verstappen ahead of Fisichella and Brundle is the toppest of lels too.

Posted: **27 Feb 2014, 22:42**

James1978, you also forgot the Webber and N Rosberg connection in that list, but that's not very noteworthy considering the period they were teammates :lol:

Well, I have my own top 10 list right now, and my reasons why.

1. Senna - I'm completely unswayed by the Church of Senna. He was arguably the best ever. What he could do in a racing car was nothing ahort of incredible. Pole at Monaco by 1.5 seconds? Senna achieved it. 6 Monaco wins? Senna achieved it. 65 poles? Senna achieved it. 41 wins? Senna achieved it. Stil all top 5 statistics.
2. Fangio - The best of his era. 5 championships, for 4 different teams. Switching teams frequently should have bothered the normal driver, but he was not normal, let's say. He handled pressure immensely. Look at his 1957 German GP win in the Nordschleife and you will see everything.
3. Prost - He gained his nickname for a reason. He was arguably the most mentally calculated driver of all time. Plus, he was very fast. One of Senna's equals in terms of on track performance.
4. M Schumacher - The greatest statistically, and rarely faltered. Sure, he had his fair share of controversy, but he will forever be the one and only Michael Schumacher for his supremacy in his time.
5. Clark - Again one of the best of his time. He had a talent to him that only others could have dreamed at the time. A true racing driver, and Britain's best ever.
6. Stewart - Not only was a fast driver of his time, he was the pioneer of F1 safety. Even if that isn't related to his driving, it is certainly a success along with his championships. And we will forever thank him for that.
7. Moss - He deserved the championship on multiple occasions. In fact, he should have won the 1958 championship IMO. But he was still a undenied talent despite no world championship win.
8. G Villeneuve - His results don't tell the story of his raw speed and driving talent.
9. Lauda - Won championships in 2 completely eras of F1. Truely great drivers are able to do this. Like Niki. And the way he came back after his Nürburgring crash is still the greatest comeback the sport has ever seen.
10. Alonso - Again, his results don't say the whole story. He really should have 4 titles in my mind. His driving is unlike many I've ever seen, and only equalled by Räikkönen, Hamilton, and Vettel in our time. Well, he is still a step better IMO, really.

Posted: **28 Feb 2014, 02:13**

Could someone put the lists side by side, so we can see if a driver has dropped or risen in the charts, be interesting if they did one now, be hard not to put Vettel in the top 20. Be interesting if here on f1 rejects we could do a top 100 f1 drivers to not score points or wins/podiums as I am sure that would be in the spirit of this forum.

Posted: **28 Feb 2014, 12:49**

I'd also be interested to know who would be a new entry to the 100 in the 6 years since it was last done. You could definitely count Grosjean and Hulkenberg, but you could also argue for drivers such as Kobayashi, Perez, Sutil, Glock, even Maldonado!! (Well if De Cesaris was in the 1999 list......)

Posted: **28 Feb 2014, 15:25**

Here's the F1 Rejects Top 52 as of December 2009 <3

1. Ayrton Senna
2. Michael Schumacher
3. Alain Prost
4. Juan Manuel Fangio
5. Jim Clark
6. Jackie Stewart
7. Niki Lauda
8. Stirling Moss
9. Gilles Villeneuve
10. Alberto Ascari
11. Nelson Piquet Sr
12. Nigel Mansell
13. Damon Hill
14. Mika Hakkinen
15. Jack Brabham
16. Fernando Alonso
17. Graham Hill
18. Lewis Hamilton
19. Kimi Raikkonen
20. Jacques Villeneuve
21. Kamui Kobayashi
22. Jenson Button
23. HWNSNBM
24. Emerson Fittipaldi
25. Lella Lombardi
26. Gerhard Berger
27. Pierluigi Martini
28. Ronnie Peterson
29. Ukyo Katayama
30. Tazio Nuvolari
31. Riccardo Patrese
32. David Coulthard
33. Mark Webber
34. Roberto Moreno
35. Felipe Massa
36. Gianni Morbidelli
37. Jochen Rindt
38. Tiago Monteiro
39. Johnny Herbert
40. Satoru Nakajima
41. Marcus Winkelhock
42. Stefan Bellof
43. Keke Rosberg
44. Gabriele Tarquini
45. Jean Alesi
46. Dan Gurney
47. Alessandro Nannini
48. Masahiro Hasemi
49. Alan Jones
50. Heinz-Harald Frentzen
51. James Hunt
52. Mario Andretti

Posted: **28 Feb 2014, 15:52**

My top 20 consists of:

1. Alain Prost
2. Jim Clark
3. Juan Manuel Fangio
4. Michael Schumacher
5. Ayrton Senna
6. Niki Lauda
7. Jackie Stewart
8. Stirling Moss
9. Nelson Piquet
10. Jack Brabham
11. Gilles Villeneuve
12. Keke Rosberg
13. Graham Hill
14. Alberto Ascari
15. Mika Hakkinen
16. James Hunt
17. Emerson Fittipaldi
18. Ronnie Peterson
19. Jochen Rindt
20. Alan Jones

Posted: **28 Feb 2014, 16:52**

Salamander wrote:My top 20 consists of:

1. Alain Prost

Wahey! At least someone agrees with me, i'd probably get flamed on other forums for thinking that.

Posted: **28 Feb 2014, 23:21**

Right then, my top 20

1. Micheal Schumacher
2. Alain Prost
3. Juan Manuel Fangio
4. Jim Clark
5. Ayrton Senna
6. Sebastian Vettel
7. Jackie Stewart
8. Niki Lauda
9. Stirling Moss
10. Fernando Alonso
11. Jack Brabham
12. Gilles Villeneuve
13. Mika Hakkinen
14. Nelson Piquet
15. Alberto Ascari
16. Graham Hill
17. Jochen Rindt
18. Lewis Hamilton
19. Ronnie Peterson
20. James Hunt

Posted: **01 Mar 2014, 05:05**

Is anybody here familiar with Analysing Formula 1 by Roger Smith? (http://www.amazon.com/Analysing-Formula-Innovative-Insights-Winners/dp/1844258408/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393648238&sr=8-1&keywords=analysing+formula+1) Smith engages in all manner of number-crunching to come with a top seven (as of the end of 2007) as follows :

1. Fangio
2. Clark
3. Schumacher
4. Stewart
5. Moss
6. Senna
7. Prost

Smith takes into account too many variables for me to do justice to here, but anybody so inclined with plenty of time on their hands, a love of excel spreadsheets and access to authoritative timesheets and other relevant stats (none of which apply to me) could follow through Smith's process and come up with a new top seven, ten, or hundred if so desired. It would be interesting to see how Vettel fares (I suspect quite well) and the extent to which Schumachers Mercedes form drags him down.

go_Rubens wrote:Well, I have my own top 10 list right now, and my reasons why.

1. Senna - I'm completely unswayed by the Church of Senna. He was arguably the best ever. What he could do in a racing car was nothing short of incredible. Pole at Monaco by 1.5 seconds? Senna achieved it. 6 Monaco wins? Senna achieved it. 65 poles? Senna achieved it. 41 wins? Senna achieved it. Still all top 5 statistics.

There is too much F1 history I have only a passing knowledge of to be confident in a personal top ten, but I have to agree with you that in the narrow, technical sense of being able to wring the best out of a car Senna was the best I have seen - but Suzuka 1990 would always disqualify him from top spot in my eyes (as does Jerez 1997 for Schumacher). That said, any top 10 without Senna or Schumacher isn't a serious list.

FullMetalJack wrote:
Salamander wrote:My top 20 consists of:

1. Alain Prost

Wahey! At least someone agrees with me, i'd probably get flamed on other forums for thinking that.

Certainly as far as the post-1980 era goes, I'm on board for that, too. See my Suzuka/Jerez comments above for why Prost is above Senna and Schumacher on any list I would come up with.

Posted: **02 Mar 2014, 20:56**

More_Blue_Flags wrote:Is anybody here familiar with Analysing Formula 1 by Roger Smith? (http://www.amazon.com/Analysing-Formula-Innovative-Insights-Winners/dp/1844258408/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393648238&sr=8-1&keywords=analysing+formula+1) Smith engages in all manner of number-crunching to come with a top seven (as of the end of 2007) as follows :

1. Fangio
2. Clark
3. Schumacher
4. Stewart
5. Moss
6. Senna
7. Prost

Smith takes into account too many variables for me to do justice to here, but anybody so inclined with plenty of time on their hands, a love of excel spreadsheets and access to authoritative timesheets and other relevant stats (none of which apply to me) could follow through Smith's process and come up with a new top seven, ten, or hundred if so desired. It would be interesting to see how Vettel fares (I suspect quite well) and the extent to which Schumachers Mercedes form drags him down.

I have that as well. Not sure how it would go on, but as he had "Schumacher era" ending in 2004 and "jury being still out" for the time onwards.

Top seven had their eras:
Fangio 1950-1957
Moss 1958-1961
Clark 1962-1967
Stewart 1968-1973
Prost 1981-1987
Senna 1988-1993
Schumacher 1994-2004

1974-1980 era didn't have clear top driver. Lauda had some bad years which took him out. From 2005 onwards, it would probably be 2005-08 being Alonso era and 2009-2013 Vettel era, but I didn't make my own calculations.

Posted: **02 Mar 2014, 21:24**

This wrote:That top 100 is weird, somehow Frère and Mairesse are in it, but the most succesful and talented belgian driver from that era, Gendebien, is nowhere to be seen. Now these two aren't bad drivers by any means, but top 100 all time? No way! Especially not wild Willy, who was the De Cesaris of the sixties.

Top 100's always strike me as being as much of a reflection of the time in which they were written and as much as of a reflection of the generational bias of those reporting on the sport as of the drivers themselves.

That list from 1999, for example, seems to have a strong bias towards drivers from the 1950's to the 1970's, whilst modern lists seems to have a stronger bias towards drivers from the 1980's - perhaps reflecting the fact that those who wrote the lists in the late 1990's probably grew up watching the sport in the 1970's, whereas those writing a decade later would have grown up with the drivers of the 1980's and perhaps the early 1990's instead.
That is probably why the 1999 list puts figures like Ascari and Surtees within the top 10 with Clark and Fangio at the top, whereas modern lists tend to put figures like Senna, Prost or Schumacher and figures like Ascari or Surtees are gradually drifting down the rankings. Now, in the case of Michael the peak of his career was yet to come in 1999, so it is understandable why more modern lists put him further up than the ones from the 1990's, but even so there is perhaps a certain element of bias towards the more modern drivers.

Posted: **02 Mar 2014, 22:52**

Bleu wrote:1974-1980 era didn't have clear top driver. Lauda had some bad years which took him out.

His Brabham days might not have been his best, but I'd challenge you to find a driver better than him from 1974-1977.

Posted: **03 Mar 2014, 09:58**

Salamander wrote:
Bleu wrote:1974-1980 era didn't have clear top driver. Lauda had some bad years which took him out.

His Brabham days might not have been his best, but I'd challenge you to find a driver better than him from 1974-1977.

I agree. I always thought that Lauda was much underrated as a driver. Although things might have been different had Fittipaldi stayed in competitive cars (he was probably the more gifted driver in the 70s).

Posted: **03 Mar 2014, 13:52**

OK, my one:

1. Ayrton Senna
2. Niki Lauda
3. Jim Clark
4. Juan Manuel Fangio
5. Alberto Ascari
6. Alain Prost
7. Michael Schumacher
8. Jochen Rindt
9. Mika Hakkinen
10. Fernando Alonso
11. Kimi Raikkonen
12. Damon Hill
13. Gilles Villeneuve
14. Jacques Villeneuve
15. Alessandro Zanardi
16. David Coulthard
17. Graham Hill
18. Roberto Moreno
19. Rubens Barrichello
20. Robert Kubica
21. Nelson Piquet
22. Jackie Stewart
23. Mark Webber
24. Sebastian Vettel
25. Jody Schechter
26. John Surtees
27. Giuseppe Farina
28. Wolfgang von Trips
29. Lorenzo Bandini
30. Gerhard Berger
31. Dan Gurney
32. Lewis Hamilton
33. Ralf Schumacher.
34. James Hunt
35. Richie Ginther
36. Ronnie Peterson
37. Clay Regazzoni
38. Juan Pablo Montoya
39. Emerson Fittipaldi
40. Nico Rosberg
41-100. Some others I don´t remember..

Posted: **03 Mar 2014, 14:02**

Where's Graham Hill? Damon in 12th? Eddie in 17th? Roberto Moreno in 18th? Otherwise a justifiable list.
If I post a list soon, it will be a rough list of modern GP winners/podium finishers and where I think they belong.

Post 1990

Alesi - In the top 100 for sure. Around 60th or 70th place
Michael S. - Somewhere about 2nd to 4th
Damon Hill - 30th to 40th
Hakkinen - 15th to 20th
Barrichello - 50th to 75th
Panis - Near the very bottom of the top 100 if at all
Coulthard - About 50th to 65th
Herbert - 80th to the very bottom
Eddie - 60th to 80th
Heinz-Beanz F. - 75th to the very bottom
Jacques Villeneuve - 40th to 55th
Ralf - 50th to 75th
Fisico - 90th to the very bottom
Trulli - Same as Fisi
Mika S. - Same as Fisi
Heidfeld - Same as Fisi
Montoya - 55th to 75th
Kimi - 20th to 30th
Alonso - Between 8th and 12th
Button - 45th to 60th
Webber - 50th to 75th
Massa - 45th to 65th
Kubica - 75th to the very bottom (sorry)
Lewis Hamilton - 15th to 25th
Kovalainen - 90th to the very bottom
Nico R. - 75th to 90th
Vettel - 10th to 15th

Posted: **03 Mar 2014, 14:22**

FA1L wrote:17. Eddie Irvine
...
20. Robert Kubica
21. Nelson Piquet
22. James Hunt
24. Sebastian Vettel
25. Jody Schechter
26. John Surtees
27. Giuseppe Farina
31. Dan Gurney
32. Lewis Hamilton
34. Jackie Stewart
36. Ronnie Peterson
39. Emerson Fittipaldi

Posted: **03 Mar 2014, 15:56**

Salamander wrote:
FA1L wrote:17. Eddie Irvine
...
20. Robert Kubica
21. Nelson Piquet
22. James Hunt
24. Sebastian Vettel
25. Jody Schechter
26. John Surtees
27. Giuseppe Farina
31. Dan Gurney
32. Lewis Hamilton
34. Jackie Stewart
36. Ronnie Peterson
39. Emerson Fittipaldi

FA1L wrote:33. Ralf Schumacher
34. Jackie Stewart

Posted: **04 Mar 2014, 00:13**

My top 25 for what it's worth:

1. Jim Clark
2. Michael Schumacher
3. Juan Manuel Fangio
4. Ayrton Senna
5. Alain Prost
6. Alberto Ascari
7. Sebastian Vettel
8. Stirling Moss
9. Jackie Stewart
10. Niki Lauda
11. Fernando Alonso
12. Gilles Villeneuve
13. Graham Hill
14. Mika Hakkinen
15. Emerson Fittipaldi
15. Jack Brabham
16. Nelson Piquet
17. Mario Andretti
18. Ronnie Peterson
19. Lewis Hamilton
20. Dan Gurney

Posted: **05 Mar 2014, 10:46**

watka wrote:My top 25 for what it's worth:

1. Jim Clark
2. Michael Schumacher
3. Juan Manuel Fangio
4. Ayrton Senna
5. Alain Prost
6. Alberto Ascari
7. Sebastian Vettel
8. Stirling Moss
9. Jackie Stewart
10. Niki Lauda
11. Fernando Alonso
12. Gilles Villeneuve
13. Graham Hill
14. Mika Hakkinen
15. Emerson Fittipaldi
15. Jack Brabham
16. Nelson Piquet
17. Mario Andretti
18. Ronnie Peterson
19. Lewis Hamilton
20. Dan Gurney

>top 25
>only 20 drivers
>Umm, Okay then

Posted: **05 Mar 2014, 17:02**

After some research, here's my top 100...

1) Alain Prost
2) Ayrton Senna
3) Michael Schumacher
4) Jim Clark
5) Jackie Stewart
6) Juan Manuel Fangio
7) Alberto Ascari
8) Sebastian Vettel
9) Niki Lauda
10) Fernando Alonso
11) Emerson Fittipaldi
12) Gilles Villeneuve
13) Stirling Moss
14) Jochen Rindt
15) Mika Hakkinen
16) Nigel Mansell
17) Ronnie Peterson
18) Nelson Piquet
19) Jack Brabham
20) Kimi Raikkonen
21) Graham Hill
22) Lewis Hamilton
23) Mario Andretti
24) James Hunt
25) Alan Jones
26) Carlos Reutemann
27) Gerhard Berger
28) Keke Rosberg
29) Felipe Massa
30) Jean Alesi
31) Wolfgang von Trips
32) John Surtees
33) Nico Rosberg
34) Riccardo Patrese
35) Jody Scheckter
36) Damon Hill
37) Robert Kubica
38) Jenson Button
39) Giuseppe Farina
40) Dan Gurney
41) Jacques Laffite
42) Didier Pironi
43) Rubens Barrichello
44) Francois Cevert
45) David Coulthard
46) Heinz-Harald Frentzen
47) Phil Hill
48) Jacky Ickx
49) Alessandro Nannini
50) Mark Webber
51) Clay Regazzoni
52) Carlos Pace
53) Thierry Boutsen
54) Michele Alboreto
55) Stefan Johansson
56) Giancarlo Fisichella
57) Rene Arnoux
58) Jarno Trulli
59) Gunnar Nilsson
60) Chris Amon
61) Patrick Depailler
62) Bruce McLaren
63) John Watson
64) Elio de Angelis
65) Olivier Panis
66) Lorenzo Bandini
67) Pedro Rodriguez
68) Nick Heidfeld
69) Richie Ginther
70) Derek Warwick
71) Jacques Villeneuve
72) Johnny Herbert
73) Peter Collins
74) Tom Pryce
75) Piero Taruffi
76) Martin Brundle
77) Luigi Villoresi
78) Stefan Bellof
79) Nico Hulkenberg
80) Jo Siffert
81) Luigi Fagioli
82) Tony Brooks
83) Eddie Irvine
84) Heikki Kovalainen
85) Ivan Capelli
86) Innes Ireland
87) Ralf Schumacher
88) Jos Verstappen
89) Jean-Pierre Beltoise
90) Sergio Perez
91) Maurice Trintignant
92) Andrea de Cesaris
93) Roberto Mieres
94) Pastor Maldonado
95) Timo Glock
96) Jean Behra
97) Kamui Kobayashi
98) Stefano Modena
99) Ukyo Katayama
100) Pierluigi Martini

Posted: **27 Jun 2014, 01:08**

So much Prost love! Its great!

Posted: **28 Jun 2014, 18:06**

My number 1 is Tazio Nuvolari. 2-wheels or 4, he just dominated. Shame he's never listed since he never got to run for the World Championship.

Posted: **28 Jun 2014, 18:52**

Wallio wrote:My number 1 is Tazio Nuvolari. 2-wheels or 4, he just dominated. Shame he's never listed since he never got to run for the World Championship.

Well, seeing as he never drove in Formula 1, I fail to see how he could be considered the greatest Formula 1 driver.

Posted: **28 Jun 2014, 23:04**

Salamander wrote:
Wallio wrote:My number 1 is Tazio Nuvolari. 2-wheels or 4, he just dominated. Shame he's never listed since he never got to run for the World Championship.

Well, seeing as he never drove in Formula 1, I fail to see how he could be considered the greatest Formula 1 driver.

He did drive formula one cars, i think. Just not in the World Championship. Now of course, by that logic...

Posted: **29 Jun 2014, 10:12**

This wrote:
Salamander wrote:
Wallio wrote:My number 1 is Tazio Nuvolari. 2-wheels or 4, he just dominated. Shame he's never listed since he never got to run for the World Championship.

Well, seeing as he never drove in Formula 1, I fail to see how he could be considered the greatest Formula 1 driver.

He did drive formula one cars, i think. Just not in the World Championship. Now of course, by that logic...

On the other hand, he only drove the cars before the Formula One classification was adopted by FIA. By 1950 his ill health had pretty much put an end to his race career.

Now if you called the list "100 Greatest Grand Prix drivers", that would be another thing...

Posted: **01 Jul 2014, 15:29**

Salamander wrote:
Wallio wrote:My number 1 is Tazio Nuvolari. 2-wheels or 4, he just dominated. Shame he's never listed since he never got to run for the World Championship.

Well, seeing as he never drove in Formula 1, I fail to see how he could be considered the greatest Formula 1 driver.

Ummm yes he did. Formula 1 is just a set of rules (formula). There were F1 races long before the world championship. And even after the world championship, F1 and Grands Prix didn't become one and the same until after the FISA-FOCA war. (Remember the non-championship races?)

Its no different than pre-CART pilots still being Indycar drivers. AAA called them championship cars, but they're still Indycars.

Posted: **01 Jul 2014, 15:47**

Nuppiz wrote:
This wrote:
Salamander wrote:Well, seeing as he never drove in Formula 1, I fail to see how he could be considered the greatest Formula 1 driver.

He did drive formula one cars, i think. Just not in the World Championship. Now of course, by that logic...

On the other hand, he only drove the cars before the Formula One classification was adopted by FIA. By 1950 his ill health had pretty much put an end to his race career.

Now if you called the list "100 Greatest Grand Prix drivers", that would be another thing...

Indeed, Nuvolari did drive in Formula One cars. But not in the World Championship. And since the usual top lists for Formula One are implied to be restricted to the World Championship, he can't be considered, for the same reason that Chris Amon isn't considered to be a Formula One race winner. He did win a couple of NC races, but no championship GPs, so it's a moot point.

Posted: **08 Aug 2014, 11:43**

This is a fairly substantial bump of the thread, but I thought it was the logical place to post this somewhat interesting top 60 ranking I came across the other day:

http://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/07/ ... /#comments

I won't spoil the surprise other that to say there are some fairly counter-intuitive rankings here - by the time I had got to the #20 to #15 mark I really started to doubt the author's methodology.

Posted: **08 Aug 2014, 20:00**

mario wrote:
This wrote:That top 100 is weird, somehow Frère and Mairesse are in it, but the most succesful and talented belgian driver from that era, Gendebien, is nowhere to be seen. Now these two aren't bad drivers by any means, but top 100 all time? No way! Especially not wild Willy, who was the De Cesaris of the sixties.

Top 100's always strike me as being as much of a reflection of the time in which they were written and as much as of a reflection of the generational bias of those reporting on the sport as of the drivers themselves.

That list from 1999, for example, seems to have a strong bias towards drivers from the 1950's to the 1970's, whilst modern lists seems to have a stronger bias towards drivers from the 1980's - perhaps reflecting the fact that those who wrote the lists in the late 1990's probably grew up watching the sport in the 1970's, whereas those writing a decade later would have grown up with the drivers of the 1980's and perhaps the early 1990's instead.
That is probably why the 1999 list puts figures like Ascari and Surtees within the top 10 with Clark and Fangio at the top, whereas modern lists tend to put figures like Senna, Prost or Schumacher and figures like Ascari or Surtees are gradually drifting down the rankings. Now, in the case of Michael the peak of his career was yet to come in 1999, so it is understandable why more modern lists put him further up than the ones from the 1990's, but even so there is perhaps a certain element of bias towards the more modern drivers.

I'd go as far as to say Michael Schumacher was the best of all time akin to Richard Petty in NASCAR. Both so dominating that it wasn't until late in their careers where they were no longer the best. Petty was surpassed by Cale Yarborough who got into great equipment at a later age than Richard did and retired before Richard as well, Dale Earnhardt Sr., and Darrell Waltrip and Schumie being surpassed by Alonso, Hamilton, and Vettel.

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