Grand Prix Rejects

In a move that does have shades of the 2006 'mass damper' affair, it appears that the FIA has suddenly announced that they consider the front-rear interconnected suspensions (or FRIC for short) that all of the teams are using to be of "questionable legality", indicating that they might move to make such designs illegal ahead of the German GP.
Whiting has indicated that, if any teams run such systems in the German GP, there is a risk that the FIA will report that team to the stewards for a breach of the technical regulations - furthermore, such an announcement seems to be an incitement for teams to report each other for a violation of the technical regulations if they run such a system.

As a number of interested parties have noted, it feels as if the FIA are potentially looking to target the leading team - Mercedes in this instance - as they are the outfit that is thought to have the most advanced interconnected suspension system. However, the FIA has indicated that, given the short timeframe, they are prepared to lift the threat of taking action if the teams unanimously protest the decision.

Now, this is one instance where I half wonder if there could be a reasonable amount of opposition from the teams - FRIC systems are very widespread amongst not only the top teams, but with midfield teams and even some backmarkers (there is an indication that even Marussia have such a system on their car), and a number of teams have been running them for many years (Lotus, the pioneers, introduced their system back in 2008). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114881

mario wrote:In a move that does have shades of the 2006 'mass damper' affair, it appears that the FIA has suddenly announced that they consider the front-rear interconnected suspensions (or FRIC for short) that all of the teams are using to be of "questionable legality", indicating that they might move to make such designs illegal ahead of the German GP.
Whiting has indicated that, if any teams run such systems in the German GP, there is a risk that the FIA will report that team to the stewards for a breach of the technical regulations - furthermore, such an announcement seems to be an incitement for teams to report each other for a violation of the technical regulations if they run such a system.

As a number of interested parties have noted, it feels as if the FIA are potentially looking to target the leading team - Mercedes in this instance - as they are the outfit that is thought to have the most advanced interconnected suspension system. However, the FIA has indicated that, given the short timeframe, they are prepared to lift the threat of taking action if the teams unanimously protest the decision.

Now, this is one instance where I half wonder if there could be a reasonable amount of opposition from the teams - FRIC systems are very widespread amongst not only the top teams, but with midfield teams and even some backmarkers (there is an indication that even Marussia have such a system on their car), and a number of teams have been running them for many years (Lotus, the pioneers, introduced their system back in 2008). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114881

This is Canada 1993 all over again. I mean really, they just know "realized" these systems were illegal? Please. Such stupidity. Ban it for next year, or better yet GO HOME FIA!

Surely all teams running FRIC would have to completely redesign their suspension to imply with the rules? As Wallio said, there are shades of the whole 1993 mid season active suspension hoohah about it, and I can see the rule being pushed back to 2015 or all teams running FRIC racing under appeal for the remainder of the season.

Good to see the FIA focussing on cost saving and improving the show.

Of course the brilliant thing in all of this was that the re-introduction of active suspension was seriously being considered as one of the new technical regulations for 2015 to improve that "Show" everyone keeps banging on about!

Wallio wrote:

mario wrote:In a move that does have shades of the 2006 'mass damper' affair, it appears that the FIA has suddenly announced that they consider the front-rear interconnected suspensions (or FRIC for short) that all of the teams are using to be of "questionable legality", indicating that they might move to make such designs illegal ahead of the German GP.
Whiting has indicated that, if any teams run such systems in the German GP, there is a risk that the FIA will report that team to the stewards for a breach of the technical regulations - furthermore, such an announcement seems to be an incitement for teams to report each other for a violation of the technical regulations if they run such a system.

As a number of interested parties have noted, it feels as if the FIA are potentially looking to target the leading team - Mercedes in this instance - as they are the outfit that is thought to have the most advanced interconnected suspension system. However, the FIA has indicated that, given the short timeframe, they are prepared to lift the threat of taking action if the teams unanimously protest the decision.

Now, this is one instance where I half wonder if there could be a reasonable amount of opposition from the teams - FRIC systems are very widespread amongst not only the top teams, but with midfield teams and even some backmarkers (there is an indication that even Marussia have such a system on their car), and a number of teams have been running them for many years (Lotus, the pioneers, introduced their system back in 2008). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114881

This is Canada 1993 all over again. I mean really, they just know "realized" these systems were illegal? Please. Such stupidity. Ban it for next year, or better yet GO HOME FIA!

The 2006 'mass damper' affair also has a similar ring to it too, particularly because the exact same section of the regulations is being used to justify banning interconnected systems - the increasingly abused article 3.15 on devices that influence the aerodynamics and are not rigidly fixed to the car. And just like the mass damper affair, many feel that the real reason for banning the device is a crude attempt to liven up the championship battle by artificially pegging back the leading car that has exploited that technology most effectively (Renault in 2006 and now Mercedes in 2014).

IceG wrote:Good to see the FIA focussing on cost saving and improving the show.

Except the FIA is not using the former as a justification and is arguably abusing its position in order to promote the latter. As a device, FRIC's are actually a relatively cheap development - even backmarkers like Marussia can find the resources to run such a system - and since pretty much every team runs a similar system, it is something of a leveller in some ways.

mario wrote: it is something of a leveller in some ways.

Certainly in a punny way, Mario! The whole idea of FRICs is the keep the car level!

I don't see this as anything other than Bernie trying to make the season more competitive by hamstringing the lead car halfway through the season. They shouldn't be able to change specifications for any reason other than immediate safety concerns (like the tyre construction last year).

It really is a farce that F1 often goes through this sort of phase, the rules should be there before the season and then enter a Parc Ferme sort of situation where they cannot be changed except for safety reasons. The sport goes on about cutting costs, why then try and force teams to completely rework their chassis in less than a two week turn around? It's pathetic!

This is ridiculous. There is no safety issues with FRIC and most teams use it. The FIA will be under a lot of pressure from teams to not ban it.

Fetzie wrote:I don't see this as anything other than Bernie trying to make the season more competitive by hamstringing the lead car halfway through the season. They shouldn't be able to change specifications for any reason other than immediate safety concerns (like the tyre construction last year).

I agree although from memory the FIA are often able to define 'safety concerns' however they wish to suit their intentions.

„We need to lower the costs”
- forces teams to redesign, effectively raising the costs

If they announce changes, do it a season ahead or something. We're by the halfway point of 2014, where the new cars are already being sketched...

I'm starting to become less and less interested in Formula 1. The organisers are race-fixing now? How can a sport go on when it has no integrity left? Having watched Serie A for 20 odd years, I'm more than used to a fair share of corruption, but at least the Italians attempt to hide it.

I am very quickly losing faith in the FIA. Conspiracy theories about Todt deliberately tanking F1 to elevate WEC are starting to look more realistic as each day passes...

Biscione wrote:I'm starting to become less and less interested in Formula 1. The organisers are race-fixing now? How can a sport go on when it has no integrity left?

Indeed. But if we look back at history, one can see that in many of the seasons that saw a team or a group of teams without much leverage with FIA dominate, something that gave them the advantage became banned. From my mind I can remember Williams active suspension, Michelin tyres construction which hurt Michelin teams, Renault's mass dampers, Brawn's double diffuser (which didn't came to pass mid season) and last year's tyre construction for which I am still to be convinced that the safety issues weren't somehow exagerated.

Shizuka wrote:„We need to lower the costs”
- forces teams to redesign, effectively raising the costs

The FRIC ban has nothing to do with costs.

But what if teams have been planning to implement it for 2015? We will never know.
So if some teams was designing the first plans for their latest car to use it, they are pretty much screwed.

This is the first time I actually hear about such a system, having not followed F1 closely since Peter Sauber retired.

So how does that FRICkin' thing work after all?

Biscione wrote:I'm starting to become less and less interested in Formula 1. The organisers are race-fixing now? How can a sport go on when it has no integrity left? Having watched Serie A for 20 odd years, I'm more than used to a fair share of corruption, but at least the Italians attempt to hide it.

I am very quickly losing faith in the FIA. Conspiracy theories about Todt deliberately tanking F1 to elevate WEC are starting to look more realistic as each day passes...

Just food for thought -- but then-NASCAR chairman Bill France Jr. was a big help to Tony George forming the IRL, which helped NASCAR rise to prominence in North America.

There's a lot more manufacturer involvement in WEC than there is in F1, and it costs a hell of a lot less to compete in WEC. Not to mention that the future of single-seater racing lies with Formula E. Kind of a no-brainer for Todt if you ask me.

Despite what I just said, I'd rather watch paint peel than the damn WEC.

dr-baker wrote:

mario wrote: it is something of a leveller in some ways.

Certainly in a punny way, Mario! The whole idea of FRICs is the keep the car level!

I'll admit that I didn't intend to make that joke...

Shizuka wrote:But what if teams have been planning to implement it for 2015? We will never know.
So if some teams was designing the first plans for their latest car to use it, they are pretty much screwed.

According to Craig Scarborough, all of the team have already developed interconnected systems.

Force India removed their system from the car after the Monaco GP because they found it difficult to fine tune the performance, which I believe means they are the only team not currently using their system on their car. However, the indication is that they wanted to fit the system back onto the car later this season.

Yannick wrote:This is the first time I actually hear about such a system, having not followed F1 closely since Peter Sauber retired.

So how does that FRICkin' thing work after all?

Basically, the idea is that there is a hydraulic connection between the suspension units at the front and the rear of the car. The idea is that when the front suspension system is loaded (say, for example, due to forward weight transfer under braking), the hydraulic connection means that the load is also transmitted to the rear suspension - the idea is to minimise the pitch and roll of the car with an entirely passive system.

As a concept, it is actually very old - the original Citroen 2CV had an early interconnected system back in 1948 - and the idea has already cropped up in F1 before: Tyrrell tried to apply that concept to the 023, where it was dubbed "Hydrolink", but in that case they eventually abandoned it because of difficulties in fine tuning the response of the system.

On a similar note, Marca is reportedly claiming that the FIA is thinking of other measures which appear to be squarely aimed at Mercedes. They are claiming that the FIA intends to sharply restrict the rate at which the energy recovery systems can harvest and transfer energy between themselves and the battery systems, as it is strongly suspected that the superiority of the Mercedes powertrain is mainly due to a superior energy recovery system (particularly the thermal energy recovery system they use).

mario wrote:On a similar note, Marca is reportedly claiming that the FIA is thinking of other measures which appear to be squarely aimed at Mercedes. They are claiming that the FIA intends to sharply restrict the rate at which the energy recovery systems can harvest and transfer energy between themselves and the battery systems, as it is strongly suspected that the superiority of the Mercedes powertrain is mainly due to a superior energy recovery system (particularly the thermal energy recovery system they use).

If this really happens, the sporting aspect of F1 would be in serious doubt. Changing the rules mid-season for any reason other than safety... I just don't know what to say.

Why not go the whole hog and ban winners? You win more than 4 races in a season and it's the naughty step for you.

having no prior knowledge to this system, FRIC looks, sounds, behaves, and smells like active suspension.
wasn't that banned in '93?

nome66 wrote:having no prior knowledge to this system, FRIC looks, sounds, behaves, and smells like active suspension.
wasn't that banned in '93?

FRIC's are passive systems as the suspension itself has to be excited by a bump or by some other form of weight transfer for the system to work, whereas an active system would be using an onboard power source to apply a force to the suspension unit (for example, with a hydraulic pump).

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Why not go the whole hog and ban winners? You win more than 4 races in a season and it's the naughty step for you.

2nd is the new 1st - What would Ronspeak think about that?

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns28453.html

Shame, I really liked watching the way the Mercedes handled the Silverstone curves. You could see the body roll but it was controlled and added a new dynamic.

FRIC is safe. Van Der Garde was testing without it when he flew off the track into a heavy hit into the wall at copse.

Given how quickly and quietly Mercedes have removed it, it makes me wonder whether or not it is such an integral part of their dominance...

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Given how quickly and quietly Mercedes have removed it, it makes me wonder whether or not it is such an integral part of their dominance...

If anything I think it'll make them more dominant -- it's not like they have the best engine or anything, requiring that the competition use other means (suspension?) to catch up...

The Ghost of James Hunt wrote:And all I can say to that, is bullshit.

But in all seriousness, it's taken Charlie this long to decide that it MIGHT be illegal? He really needs to relinquish the role of head of the F1 Technical Department in favour of someone who can make up their bloody mind about what contravenes the technical regulations sooner than midway through a season. And if it is a matter of him being pressurised by the FIA in order to change the course of the championship, he really needs to step aside, because it's unethical for him to cave in to such pressure, and dishonours the title and responsibilities which have been bestowed upon him.

It's one thing to take a look at it if a team or several teams ask for clarification, or protest outright(Ferrari's floor at 07' Aus. GP, double deck diffusers in 09') but when none of the teams have said a thing (taking into account that they mostly or all are running the contraption in dispute) and there are no legitimate questions over it's impact on safety, it really serves no useful purpose to pursue such a course of action mid season. That'd be like the FIA saying that at this point of the 88' season, let's ban turbo engines earlier than we planned, because McLaren are running away with the championship. It's absurd.

If it looks like shite and smells like shite...it is shite.

What a load of nonsense.

When they are talking of bringing active suspension back (what do they think will happen? that teams will only develop the bare minimum and leave it there?) and introducing 18" wheels only to force teams to spend a lot of money adjusting the car to it, this talk about a FRIC ban being a cost saving measure for the future is the most idiotic thing I have seen written in a while. It is so disappointing to see an article like this one (which clearly defends the decision and FIA) in a such revered F1 news page.

tzerof1 wrote:

The Ghost of James Hunt wrote:And all I can say to that, is bullshit.

But in all seriousness, it's taken Charlie this long to decide that it MIGHT be illegal? He really needs to relinquish the role of head of the F1 Technical Department in favour of someone who can make up their bloody mind about what contravenes the technical regulations sooner than midway through a season. And if it is a matter of him being pressurised by the FIA in order to change the course of the championship, he really needs to step aside, because it's unethical for him to cave in to such pressure, and dishonours the title and responsibilities which have been bestowed upon him.

It's one thing to take a look at it if a team or several teams ask for clarification, or protest outright(Ferrari's floor at 07' Aus. GP, double deck diffusers in 09') but when none of the teams have said a thing (taking into account that they mostly or all are running the contraption in dispute) and there are no legitimate questions over it's impact on safety, it really serves no useful purpose to pursue such a course of action mid season. That'd be like the FIA saying that at this point of the 88' season, let's ban turbo engines earlier than we planned, because McLaren are running away with the championship. It's absurd.

If it looks like shite and smells like shite...it is shite.

A few more details are coming out that suggest that the FIA's announcement might have been in the offing for a bit longer than first thought - the first talks on the FRIC systems currently in use seem to have begun back in May during the Monaco GP, with the FIA having spent much of the intervening period then pressing the Technical Directors of the teams for further details.
Still, I agree that it seems odd that the FIA should choose this instance in time to ban the system - the FIA seems to have originally planned on banning the system before the 2015 season, which would have meant the system would have remained legal for the rest of this season...

On a related note, it seems that seven teams have publicly agreed that they would not launch a formal protest if another team were to run the system - only Caterham, Toro Rosso, Force India and Sauber have not yet agreed to that proposal (and out of those teams, Force India is known to have had issues with their system and to already run without FRIC, so they are probably the ones with the most to gain from the ban). http://www.f1technical.net/news/19482

mario wrote:On a similar note, Marca is reportedly claiming that the FIA is thinking of other measures which appear to be squarely aimed at Mercedes.

Whole Spanish Press, we're waiting for you!

This is starting to get ridiculous

http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/ ... or-germany

McLaren is removing FRIC.