Rantbox

[DanielPT]

True. But am I the only one who's excited about turbocharged engines coming back?

You are not alone. I am also looking forward to turbocharged engines!

[Londoner]

True. But am I the only one who's excited about turbocharged engines coming back?

You are not alone. I am also looking forward to turbocharged engines!

Same here. I missed them first time around by 6-7 years.

[Aerospeed]

True. But am I the only one who's excited about turbocharged engines coming back?

I'd rather have a turbocharged V8.

[dr-baker]

True. But am I the only one who's excited about turbocharged engines coming back?

I'd rather have a turbocharged V12.

Fixed. Still looking forward to turbos though. So long as they still make a noise though.

[Peter]

True. But am I the only one who's excited about turbocharged engines coming back?

I'd rather have a turbocharged V12.

Fixed. Still looking forward to turbos though. So long as they still make a noise though.

This might belong more on the trivia question thread, but, apart from Ferrari's V12 in the 70's-80's (right?) Has there been any other turbocharged V12's in F1's history?

[FullMetalJack]

True. But am I the only one who's excited about turbocharged engines coming back?

I'd rather have a turbocharged Lamborghini V12.

Fixed again

[DemocalypseNow]

Right, Brundle, you asked for this.

"Round the right-left-right chicane of Les Combes, into Rivage, down the hill towards The Corner With No Name..."

I looked in my old season guides. I knew that corner has a name! The 180°right after Les Combes that plunges sharply downhill is Malmedy, and Rivage is the left hander afterwards that Martin doesn't know has a name. He's been getting this wrong for an unspecified number of years now.

EDIT: wait a minute, what's going on? Are the people who make the Grand Prix season guides to blame? In 1996, the BBC listed the corners as I've described above - by 1998 (with no guide in 1997) they'd changed it to right-left at Les Combes, then Malmedy as the third of those, then Rivage as the long right-hander. ITV, in 1997, listed it as it was originally, then again in 1998, but for 1999 they changed it as well so it was right-left at Les Combes, a short right at Malmedy, and a long 180°right at Rivage, then a corner with no name.

I say we put it back to how it was!

Strangely enough, according to Spa's official website...it's none of those. Oddly some of the corner names are different! What MB calls Rivage is called 'Bruxelles' on the official circuit map. Elsewhere, Pouhon is named 'Double Gauche'. And, interestingly, the track guide on the official F1 website says Les Combes is the entrance to the right-left-right complex, with Malmedy making up the other two parts of that complex, and Rivage being the long right hander.

[mario]

This might belong more on the trivia question thread, but, apart from Ferrari's V12 in the 70's-80's (right?) Has there been any other turbocharged V12's in F1's history?

No, Ferrari's 12 cylinder engine during the 1970's and early 1980's was a normally aspirated engine, whilst the turbo charged engine they produced afterwards was a V6.
In fact, I don't think that anybody has produced a forced induction V12 engine for F1, as forced induction makes it more favourable to lower, not raise, the cylinder count (more cylinders = greater friction losses and therefore a reduction in efficiency). Alfa Romeo's V8 turbo has the highest cylinder count during the turbo era (and was considered to be a technological dead end due to its terrible fuel consumption), and during the early 1950's there was the famous BRM V16 engine, although that was supercharged (which was quite powerful, but had dreadful reliability and was very difficult to drive).

[Phoenix]

This might belong more on the trivia question thread, but, apart from Ferrari's V12 in the 70's-80's (right?) Has there been any other turbocharged V12's in F1's history?

No, Ferrari's 12 cylinder engine during the 1970's and early 1980's was a normally aspirated engine, whilst the turbo charged engine they produced afterwards was a V6.
In fact, I don't think that anybody has produced a forced induction V12 engine for F1, as forced induction makes it more favourable to lower, not raise, the cylinder count (more cylinders = greater friction losses and therefore a reduction in efficiency). Alfa Romeo's V8 turbo has the highest cylinder count during the turbo era (and was considered to be a technological dead end due to its terrible fuel consumption), and during the early 1950's there was the famous BRM V16 engine, although that was supercharged (which was quite powerful, but had dreadful reliability and was very difficult to drive).

Besides, the engines Ferrari used between 1970 and 1980 were flat-12, not V12.

[dr-baker]

This might belong more on the trivia question thread, but, apart from Ferrari's V12 in the 70's-80's (right?) Has there been any other turbocharged V12's in F1's history?

No, Ferrari's 12 cylinder engine during the 1970's and early 1980's was a normally aspirated engine, whilst the turbo charged engine they produced afterwards was a V6.
In fact, I don't think that anybody has produced a forced induction V12 engine for F1, as forced induction makes it more favourable to lower, not raise, the cylinder count (more cylinders = greater friction losses and therefore a reduction in efficiency). Alfa Romeo's V8 turbo has the highest cylinder count during the turbo era (and was considered to be a technological dead end due to its terrible fuel consumption), and during the early 1950's there was the famous BRM V16 engine, although that was supercharged (which was quite powerful, but had dreadful reliability and was very difficult to drive).

Thanks mario. Even more reason to have turbocharged V12s - the return of unreliability!

[TheBigJ]

Bernie Ecclestone is just ruining F1 wonderfully. I'm actually sad that Ferrari didn't create a breakaway championship with the big manufacturers in 2009.

[Cynon]

Bernie Ecclestone is just ruining F1 wonderfully. I'm actually sad that Ferrari didn't create a breakaway championship with the big manufacturers in 2009.

I'd be all for that because I personally found the CART/IRL split kind of fascinating until 2003 when it just got dull. Just look at the IRL entry list for 1996 and tell me that wasn't filled with reject goodness!

[TheBigJ]

Bernie Ecclestone is just ruining F1 wonderfully. I'm actually sad that Ferrari didn't create a breakaway championship with the big manufacturers in 2009.

I'd be all for that because I personally found the CART/IRL split kind of fascinating until 2003 when it just got dull. Just look at the IRL entry list for 1996 and tell me that wasn't filled with reject goodness!

To be fair, FOTA are getting more and more power, which I think is good. Bernie still has far too much power for his own good.


Can somebody please explain me why money is still an issue with the dwarf when he's already loaded in cash? What's his problem?

[dinizintheoven]

Can somebody please explain me why money is still an issue with the dwarf when he's already loaded in cash? What's his problem?

The more you have, the more you want.

[AndreaModa]

No it's not his personal wealth he's interested in at all anymore, in fact I doubt he ever was really.

It's the vast debt that's been created as the ownership of F1 has shifted around over the years, and the current owners, CVC, are so burdened by it, they need an enormous income to be able to service it and stop themselves from going bankrupt, which I think we can all agree is something that isn't very desirable.

The money that's used to service this debt can only realistically come from F1 itself, and that is pretty much Bernie's job. So he gets it out of the fees charged for the tracks to host the races each year, sponsorship deals with companies like LG and UBS, and any other way he can lawfully get his hands on more money. He's not doing that simply because he wants to, there's always a more complex reason to it.

[mario]

Bernie Ecclestone is just ruining F1 wonderfully. I'm actually sad that Ferrari didn't create a breakaway championship with the big manufacturers in 2009.

I'd be all for that because I personally found the CART/IRL split kind of fascinating until 2003 when it just got dull. Just look at the IRL entry list for 1996 and tell me that wasn't filled with reject goodness!

To be fair, FOTA are getting more and more power, which I think is good. Bernie still has far too much power for his own good.


Can somebody please explain me why money is still an issue with the dwarf when he's already loaded in cash? What's his problem?

Is it just the case that FOTA as a whole is becoming stronger, or just the largest teams within FOTA? It has to be said that FOTA seem to have gained in strength since Mosely left, because, for both good and ill, Mosely was definitely not prepared to be pushed around by the teams, whereas Todt seems to be much more willing to bend to their requests.

After all, the debate about the new engine regulations showed that up pretty clearly; Todt was adamant that the engines would be four cylinder units, possibly as a derivative of the Global Race Engine initiative that the FIA has had to cut costs by standardising designs (and trying to, unsuccessfully, lure VW into F1), but we saw how that mutated into V6 engines, which it seems that Ferrari was keenest on (though that also seems to have been preferred by Mercedes).
The watering down of the proposed changes to the aero regulations occured, and it seems that the big teams were determined to avoid a repeat of 2009 when the rest of the grid showed them up and beat them on track. In particular, it seems that Red Bull were very keen for the regulations to stay quite similar, since, thanks to Newey and his design team, that should ensure that they remain competitive for years to come.

To a certain extent, though, whilst it may be better in some ways for FOTA to be gaining power, in other ways perhaps it is potentially quite destructive too. After all, we've seen that the major manufacturers refused, delayed and watered down as much the proposed cost cutting plans, fearing that it'd destroy the advantage they'd gained through spending power - and the rapid exodus that followed when the economy tanked and the manufacturers could no longer stomach a $400 million bill for the season (and even now, several years later, the spending power of even the biggest teams is still only thought to be about half of what it was just a few years ago).
We saw how more than one team, once the manufactuer that supported them walked out, was left as a shell of its former self; Williams, for example, have never really recovered once BMW left (though, seeing what Sauber's been through, perhaps they might have been little better off if they had sold out to BMW). Even now we can see how a number of teams are struggling for money - Renault, which is not a small outfit by any means, is having to resort to further pay drivers (Bruno may deny it, but few in the paddock doubt that personal sponsorship paved the way for him to replace Heidfeld, regardless of how he may be performing now, and the team has been losing staff left, right and centre).

Sometimes, whilst they might become very unpopular, you do need somebody outside of FOTA to take a stand and tell the teams that they are wrong - without a counterweight to the power of the biggest, manufacturer backed teams, you might find that the vested interests of the biggest teams could cause great damage to the sport.

[TheBigJ]

Is it just the case that FOTA as a whole is becoming stronger, or just the largest teams within FOTA? It has to be said that FOTA seem to have gained in strength since Mosely left, because, for both good and ill, Mosely was definitely not prepared to be pushed around by the teams, whereas Todt seems to be much more willing to bend to their requests.

After all, the debate about the new engine regulations showed that up pretty clearly; Todt was adamant that the engines would be four cylinder units, possibly as a derivative of the Global Race Engine initiative that the FIA has had to cut costs by standardising designs (and trying to, unsuccessfully, lure VW into F1), but we saw how that mutated into V6 engines, which it seems that Ferrari was keenest on (though that also seems to have been preferred by Mercedes).
The watering down of the proposed changes to the aero regulations occured, and it seems that the big teams were determined to avoid a repeat of 2009 when the rest of the grid showed them up and beat them on track. In particular, it seems that Red Bull were very keen for the regulations to stay quite similar, since, thanks to Newey and his design team, that should ensure that they remain competitive for years to come.

To a certain extent, though, whilst it may be better in some ways for FOTA to be gaining power, in other ways perhaps it is potentially quite destructive too. After all, we've seen that the major manufacturers refused, delayed and watered down as much the proposed cost cutting plans, fearing that it'd destroy the advantage they'd gained through spending power - and the rapid exodus that followed when the economy tanked and the manufacturers could no longer stomach a $400 million bill for the season (and even now, several years later, the spending power of even the biggest teams is still only thought to be about half of what it was just a few years ago).
We saw how more than one team, once the manufactuer that supported them walked out, was left as a shell of its former self; Williams, for example, have never really recovered once BMW left (though, seeing what Sauber's been through, perhaps they might have been little better off if they had sold out to BMW). Even now we can see how a number of teams are struggling for money - Renault, which is not a small outfit by any means, is having to resort to further pay drivers (Bruno may deny it, but few in the paddock doubt that personal sponsorship paved the way for him to replace Heidfeld, regardless of how he may be performing now, and the team has been losing staff left, right and centre).

Sometimes, whilst they might become very unpopular, you do need somebody outside of FOTA to take a stand and tell the teams that they are wrong - without a counterweight to the power of the biggest, manufacturer backed teams, you might find that the vested interests of the biggest teams could cause great damage to the sport.

A well constructed, interesting post.

I think it's crystal clear that the big teams wish to remain "big", as you pointed out. Hispania have already made a lot of noise about FOTA, but the problem is everybody thinks them as, well...rejects!


It's a shame Colin Kolles is regarded as a complete nutjob, because he makes a lot of valid points. Red Bull are still a works team, and they used to be the same sort of laughing stock Hispania are (along with others). Christ, their cousins at Torro Rosso are still "small", yet Red Bull have decided to try and join the "elite" and try to dominate F1 for years with Adrian Newey.


The only problem is, once Newey leaves and/or Dietrich Mateschitz loses interest, Red Bull go back down to being the funky reject works team, unable to compete with the "bigness" of McLaren/Ferrari. And guess who'll be the first to complain about the predictable rules...


As far as I'm concerned, the only safe teams in F1 are McLaren and Ferrari. They always have been and they always will be. I believe Williams might recover from the barren years. They just don't have a good designer.

[Londoner]

Anyone else get really frustrated when the lap counter graphic starts flashing yellow to denote yellow flags for a few seconds each time a car goes slightly off track. As well as it being completely ignored by the commentators and the FOM feed.

[Cynon]

Someone needs to start wrecking Hamilton NASCAR style. Maybe that'll slap some sense into him.

[Shizuka]

Massa is the perfect driver for that!

He doesn't have to worry about his sixth place in the WDC. Ferrari doesn't have to worry about their third place in the WDC as Mercedes is clearly behind them. Also, Massa's mindset would be in a better state after it as it would be some sort of a revenge.

...and then he would get a one-race suspension.

[Captain Hammer]

Can somebody please explain me why money is still an issue with the dwarf when he's already loaded in cash? What's his problem?

The money doesn't go straight to Bernie. He gets his fee, yes, but the money from broadcast rights and circuit contracts gets put back into the sport.

For some reason, this is a concept that everyone seems to have difficult understanding.

[ADx_Wales]

...but the money from broadcast rights and circuit contracts gets put back into the sport

And we'd all like that to appear sometime in the next few decades.

[Captain Hammer]

And we'd all like that to appear sometime in the next few decades.

You know how all the teams that place in the top ten in the WCC get a bonus payout from FOM? That's the broadcast rights. All the money paid to FOM by broadcasters is put in escrow for the year, and divided up among the team once the championship is over. Where did you think that money comes from?

As for the fees from circuits, that gets put towards paying off the debt to CVC, among other things. When Virgin, Hispania and Lotus joined the team, FOM put ten million pounds aside - per team; it was thirty million in total - to ship all their freight around the world for the flyaway races. When FOM updated their infrastructure to allow for HD broadcasts, they paid for it with money from the circuits. That's over four hundred HD cameras; some two hundred cameras will be used in the course of a race weekend (including spares), with a second set sent in advance to the next round. Plus, the circuit fees pay the salaries of all FOM personnel - not just Bernie, but the camera operators, race directors and support staff.

[DanielPT]

And we'd all like that to appear sometime in the next few decades.

You know how all the teams that place in the top ten in the WCC get a bonus payout from FOM? That's the broadcast rights. All the money paid to FOM by broadcasters is put in escrow for the year, and divided up among the team once the championship is over. Where did you think that money comes from?

Not all money though... Only 50% of it goes to the teams as specified by the Concorde Agreement. The rest still pays up CVC debts which is expected to be totally paid up at the end of this year.

[Captain Hammer]

In which case, the money will be freed up. The point is that the money doesn't go straight to Bernie's back pocket. He takes his cut, but it's no more than about 5% of the total.

[ADx_Wales]

When you said "back into the sport" obviously I assumed it was the entire spectrum of motorsport...oops.

[DanielPT]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95260

It is beyond me why people keep forgetting that Vettel's F1 career didn't start with Red Bull in 2009... It is either this or the 2007 and the 2008 Toro Rossos are deemed to be fantastic cars.

[Peter]

Well, he joined in 2007 with Torro Rosso, did pretty well surely, managed to beat his more experienced teammate Liuzzi. 2008, took that one-in-a-million-will-never-happen-again win at Monza, Bourdais was usually not too far behind him, but had horrible luck, makes Webber look lucky, that kind of luck.

2011 makes everyone forget the first half of 2010, where Webber was the man to beat. He was busy taking pole and win after win after win, and was on top form, up until his claimed injury and when the off throttle blown diffuser was introduced. My point is that Vettel is not absolute perfection who has destroyed all his teammates in his career.

[mario]

Well, he joined in 2007 with Torro Rosso, did pretty well surely, managed to beat his more experienced teammate Liuzzi. 2008, took that one-in-a-million-will-never-happen-again win at Monza, Bourdais was usually not too far behind him, but had horrible luck, makes Webber look lucky, that kind of luck.

2011 makes everyone forget the first half of 2010, where Webber was the man to beat. He was busy taking pole and win after win after win, and was on top form, up until his claimed injury and when the off throttle blown diffuser was introduced. My point is that Vettel is not absolute perfection who has destroyed all his teammates in his career.

The results in 2007 against Liuzzi are a little skewed, it must be said, by the mixed conditions in the Chinese GP that year, where Vettel took a lucky 4th place (that was the same race that saw Button drive the utter heap of junk that was the RA107 into the points, something that would be very unlikely in dry conditions), and the US GP, where Vettel was driving the much more competitive BMW-Sabuer F1.07 - in the other races that year where Liuzzi and Vettel both finished, Vettel finished behind Liuzzi in all of them.

As for 2008, Bourdais's qualifying pace in particular was probably a lot better than first appears - he'd often set comparable times to Vettel in Q2, but for Q3, when the drivers had to qualify with fuel on board, he was always given a significantly heavier fuel load and therefore would always end up further down the grid than Vettel. OK, Vettel could often take advantage of that better starting position to gain position on track, whereas Bourdais would struggle, but the uneven strategy suggests that Toro Rosso wasn't entirely even handed between the two drivers.

True, overall it is hard to denigrate Vettel when his performance this season has been extremely good (not quite perfect, but not far off), and only once this year has Webber really had an advantage over Vettel (at the German GP) - but it has to be said that he did have a little bit of good fortune when at Toro Rosso (as well as Mateschitz's favour).

[Klon]

Martin Tomczyk's title win nearly two weeks ago was the straw that broke the camel's back: I demand singing on team radio to be punished by DSQ unless done by professionals.

[Reverie Planetarian]

Modern racing as a whole has a lot of bits that displease me. When I think about better racing series I've seen, I can only think about past eras and series that don't exist anymore.

That makes me feel so old.

And I HATE it.

[Cynon]

Martin Tomczyk's title win nearly two weeks ago was the straw that broke the camel's back: I demand singing on team radio to be punished by DSQ unless done by professionals.

Would Alguersuari count? Or even Jacques Villeneuve?

[DanielPT]

Martin Tomczyk's title win nearly two weeks ago was the straw that broke the camel's back: I demand singing on team radio to be punished by DSQ unless done by professionals.

Would Alguersuari count? Or even Jacques Villeneuve?

I don't think Alguersuari can sing. It would be cool if he played some remix on the team radio though. About Jacques Villeneuve, wikipédia says this:

On December 31, 2007, Infoman 2007, a satirical end-of-year review on Radio-Canada, announced that he had sold only 836 CDs in North America.

I bet most of those were his friends. I think that doesn't count like a professional!

[Cynon]

Martin Tomczyk's title win nearly two weeks ago was the straw that broke the camel's back: I demand singing on team radio to be punished by DSQ unless done by professionals.

Would Alguersuari count? Or even Jacques Villeneuve?

I don't think Alguersuari can sing. It would be cool if he played some remix on the team radio though.

Autotune, perhaps?

[DanielPT]

Would Alguersuari count? Or even Jacques Villeneuve?

I don't think Alguersuari can sing. It would be cool if he played some remix on the team radio though.

Autotune, perhaps?

Perhaps that is the absolute solution for singing in the team radio. It would also be the solution for Jacques Villeneuve and his lack of musical success.

[mario]

Would Alguersuari count? Or even Jacques Villeneuve?

I don't think Alguersuari can sing. It would be cool if he played some remix on the team radio though.

Autotune, perhaps?

That could be just as bad, and perhaps worse - remember those milk adverts that Webber did?

[FullMetalJack]

That could be just as bad, and perhaps worse - remember those milk adverts that Webber did?

Been a while since I heard them. I would say don't quit your day job Mark, but we know how that's been this season.

[fjackdaw]

Modern racing as a whole has a lot of bits that displease me. When I think about better racing series I've seen, I can only think about past eras and series that don't exist anymore.

That makes me feel so old.

And I HATE it.

I remember when BTCC used to be good! Like, the next best after F1. That's how old I am.

[AdrianSutil]

That could be just as bad, and perhaps worse - remember those milk adverts that Webber did?

Been a while since I heard them. I would say don't quit your day job Mark, but we know how that's been this season.

Ouch!! Put your claws away

[Peter]

Modern racing as a whole has a lot of bits that displease me. When I think about better racing series I've seen, I can only think about past eras and series that don't exist anymore.

That makes me feel so old.

And I HATE it.

I remember when BTCC used to be good! Like, the next best after F1. That's how old I am.

I remember when IndyCar was goo- OH WAIT no that was CART.