Reject of the Race - Italy

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 13 Sep 2009, 18:58

RAK wrote:Lewis Hamilton: Gave up six points for a ridiculous last-lap chase for second.

Can't agree with that - I'm glad he was still trying and hadn't settled for 3rd

Nin13 · Post by **Nin13** » 13 Sep 2009, 18:59

Red Bull- virtually have lost both titles now. Atleast Hamilton had nothing to loose, but Webber and Vettel have slim chance of being Champions!!

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 13 Sep 2009, 18:59

I'm just glad that after some of the previous races when it was extremely hard to come up with worthy candidate, this race seems to have plenty.

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 13 Sep 2009, 20:40

Ben Gilbert wrote:The Red Bull 'Family'

Webber out on the first lap, Vettel dol-drumming around to finish barely in the points, Alguersuari having to start from the pitlane and then retiring and Buemi being anonymous.

Good shout that - they really had an awful race - from winners last year to this abysmal display.

watka · Post by **watka** » 13 Sep 2009, 20:57

Plenty of candidates, which I will list:

Toro Rosso - been off the pace for many races, and considering their win last year, this is probably their most reject worthy performance yet.
Kimi Raikkonen's KERS - kept Sutil at bay, although the 2009 spec aerodynamics, and Sutil's pitline blunder contributed their fair share as well.
Red Bull - Off the pace, Webber out of the championship for sure, Vettel again struggling when not leading from the front.
Kubica - Just how many DNFs has he had this season? He's been as bad as Piquet, if only with slightly more pace of late.

But for me, it's got to be the McLaren drivers. I say drivers, because the car was perfectly good at Monza. Hamilton unnecessarily charged on the last lap and binned it ala Nakajima at Monaco, although there was a 3rd place at stake this time. Kovalainen pretty much has pretty much lost his seat with this performance as he really should have been mixing it with the Brawns, but got 6th and had no pace whatsoever.

Kudos to Brawn for getting it spot on and not giving in to a 2 stop strategy. Liuzzi too, to jump into a 2009 car for the first time (albeit a good one) and driver it as solidly as he did was good.

A final point on Fisichella, 9th was good considering he was propping up the timesheets on Friday. The Ferrari seems a tricky blighter to drive, it reminds me of the Ducati in MotoGP. Casey Stoner can win races on that bike, but he's had Loris Capirossi, Marco Melandri, and Nicky Hayden (all proven race winners) as teammates and they were struggling for points.

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 13 Sep 2009, 21:05

Kovalainen- He was in a great position to capitalize and he failed to do so spectacularly.

Ben Gilbert wrote:The Red Bull 'Family'

Webber out on the first lap, Vettel dol-drumming around to finish barely in the points, Alguersuari having to start from the pitlane and then retiring and Buemi being anonymous.

Good shout that - they really had an awful race - from winners last year to this abysmal display.

Not only that when STR's boss says they deserved the back row, they are pretty strong contenders.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 13 Sep 2009, 21:26

watka wrote:Kubica - Just how many DNFs has he had this season? He's been as bad as Piquet, if only with slightly more pace of late.

TBH, a lot of his problems have been out of his control. Comparing Kubica to Piquet is unjustified, IMO. But then he is my favourite driver, so read into that what you will.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 13 Sep 2009, 21:31

Either McLaren's Driver Lineup for being too slow or too crashworthy, or this guy for the most ridiculous attire I've seen in a long time.

Edit: Image also posted below. I linked to it.

XurizManson · Post by **XurizManson** » 13 Sep 2009, 21:36

Yeah! The PlunderMan´s costume sux!

Jack O Malley · Post by **Jack O Malley** » 13 Sep 2009, 21:54

He is "Capitan Ventosa" , "Captain suction cup" in Italian!

http://www.striscialanotizia.mediaset.i ... tosa.shtml

just a silly TV personality.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 13 Sep 2009, 21:55

I'm going to say Heikki. Lewis did crash unnecessarily, but we all make mistakes (albeit not as many as Ham), and at least he was trying till the last and being a real racer about it. Heikki was just slooooow.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 13 Sep 2009, 22:59

McLaren's drivers. The quick one wrecks it on the way to the podium, the slow one blew a great shot at the win.

Bort · Post by **Bort** » 14 Sep 2009, 00:12

I nominate myself, for falling asleep about 8 laps or so into the race.

I woke up with about 3 laps to go, so I still got to enjoy watching Hamilton hit the wall.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 14 Sep 2009, 00:41

It's clearly Lewis Hamilton. He might have made his strategy work (sort of), but he was pushing too hard with very little chance of catching Button on the final lap and his accident spelled the end of his title defence. Hamilton had been pushing far too hard all weekend, firstly by going out for a last-minute dash for pole that compromised his strategy, and secondly by trying to catch Button when he should have consolidated and netted six points to keep his slim title hopes live.

Gary Shavit · Post by **Gary Shavit** » 14 Sep 2009, 04:45

Reject of the Race: Martin Whitmarsh of course! Obviously, he told Lewis to crash on the last lap so that Kovalainen could gain an extra point in the Driver's Championship.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 14 Sep 2009, 06:09

Gary Shavit wrote:Reject of the Race: Martin Whitmarsh of course! Obviously, he told Lewis to crash on the last lap so that Kovalainen could gain an extra point in the Driver's Championship.

Conspiricy theorists STAND UP! :lol:

In all seriousness though my nominations are:
McLaren's driver lineup: Hamilton threw away a safe poduim taking an unnessicary risk and Kovalainen for throwing away a probable win for being just too damn slow.
The Red Bull stable (RBR + STR): Webber and Algeursuari's DNFs did absolutely nothing all race in a practically nothing weekend.
Williams: For being unfathomably slow all weekend
Liuzzi's Gearbox: For robbing us of a neat certain double points finish for the Force

FloProAct · Post by **FloProAct** » 14 Sep 2009, 11:02

Hamilton. There really was no need to push that hard.

MinardiFan95 · Post by **MinardiFan95** » 14 Sep 2009, 12:05

Other than Hamilton's brainfade on the last lap, BMW reliability is my choice for ROTR. Both engines expiring during Q2 and a failure for Kubica in the race deserve the ROTR. I also nominate Fisichella for the sole fact that he was beaten by both Force Indias in qualifying and would have been beaten by both of them if Liuzzi's gearbox.(probably a bit unfair on him as he was in an unfamiliar car)

jackanderton · Post by **jackanderton** » 14 Sep 2009, 12:19

It can't be Hamilton because he had nothing to lose.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 14 Sep 2009, 12:27

I have to stick up for the race itself, I thought it was pretty exciting. Lots of overtaking on the opening laps, and genuine uncertainty as to who the winner was going to be. Even my wife stayed awake, and commented how quick it had seemed.

Imrryr · Post by **Imrryr** » 14 Sep 2009, 12:55

I'm leaning towards Kovalainen. Out of all the front runners, his race was the most dissapointing (I cheered heartily when Liuzzi got by him on the first lap). And as previously mentioned, Kovy is the one who needs to impress his team if he wants to retain his seat. Lewis could slam it into the wall at all of the remaining races and McLaren would still rush to re-sign him.

The other dissapointment was certainly Toro Rosso. I'm very happy that Force India have finally overtaken them in the constructors championship, because dead last is exactly where TR deserve to be. But I'll continue to cut Alguersuari some slack for the time being, since I remember that Sebastian Vettel wasn't immediately impressive when he jumped into the Toro Rosso back in 2007.

(dis)Honorable mention goes to Liuzzi's gearbox... maybe Kimi sabotaged it?

FloProAct · Post by **FloProAct** » 14 Sep 2009, 15:03

jackanderton wrote:It can't be Hamilton because he had nothing to lose.

Aside from third place...

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 14 Sep 2009, 15:47

FloProAct wrote:
jackanderton wrote:It can't be Hamilton because he had nothing to lose.

Aside from third place...

What's third place though? Yeah, it's nice, but it's not:

A) McLaren's best result of the year.
B) Important championship points. Saying he has a championship chance is, while not technically untrue, not a realistic assesment by any means. Equally, McLaren aren't the sort of team with shaky "points means pounds" sponsorship deals, so there really was nothing to lose.

if they'd not won hungary, and this would have been McLaren's first podium of the year, then yeah, sit back and hold on to it. But have we not spent enough time watching drivers pootle round after settling for some points, or a podium? Even if he couldn't have caught Button and passed in straight conditions, applying the pressure at means Button might have to go beyond his comfort zone and make a mistake.

Pushing too hard, too much of the time is usually a feature people like in drivers (McRae, Mansell, McCarthy, Villeneuve Sr.), so I'm not really sure why it's seen as negative for Hamilton.

lostpin · Post by **lostpin** » 14 Sep 2009, 16:13

Hm, you're in for a nice third place but you want more, and then you crash your car on the final lap because you think third is not good enough for you... hm... or maybe he just wanted to see how Raikkonen felt last year when he crashed on the last lap in Spa? Reject material anyway... :mrgreen:

lostpin · Post by **lostpin** » 14 Sep 2009, 16:14

P.S. And what a way to waste your pole position.. :lol:

Popi_Larrauri · Post by **Popi_Larrauri** » 14 Sep 2009, 17:29

Liuzzi's Driveshaft.

kowalski · Post by **kowalski** » 14 Sep 2009, 17:37

Jordan192 wrote:
FloProAct wrote:
jackanderton wrote:It can't be Hamilton because he had nothing to lose.

Aside from third place...

What's third place though? Yeah, it's nice, but it's not:

A) McLaren's best result of the year.
B) Important championship points. Saying he has a championship chance is, while not technically untrue, not a realistic assesment by any means. Equally, McLaren aren't the sort of team with shaky "points means pounds" sponsorship deals, so there really was nothing to lose.

if they'd not won hungary, and this would have been McLaren's first podium of the year, then yeah, sit back and hold on to it. But have we not spent enough time watching drivers pootle round after settling for some points, or a podium? Even if he couldn't have caught Button and passed in straight conditions, applying the pressure at means Button might have to go beyond his comfort zone and make a mistake.

Pushing too hard, too much of the time is usually a feature people like in drivers (McRae, Mansell, McCarthy, Villeneuve Sr.), so I'm not really sure why it's seen as negative for Hamilton.

Maybe, but McLaren are in a very close fight for 3rd in the constructors and THAT is a BIG DEAL... throwing those points away is big news for the team - If they finish behind Ferrari they will not be happy, if they finish behind Toyota they will be close to 'reject of the year' status...

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 14 Sep 2009, 18:22

Funny.

Kimi crashes out on the last lap with dry tyres on a very wet conditions while fighting from the lead and people walk all over him there.

Lewis crashes on the last lap from third place simply by over-driving when nobody was pressuring him and people defend him on how he pushed to the very end, which unfortunately cost him.

Hamilton-fans and Fanboys... How i despise thee.
Kimi-haters... How i despise thee.

Popi_Larrauri · Post by **Popi_Larrauri** » 14 Sep 2009, 20:28

DonTirri wrote:Funny.

Kimi crashes out on the last lap with dry tyres on a very wet conditions while fighting from the lead and people walk all over him there.

Lewis crashes on the last lap from third place simply by over-driving when nobody was pressuring him and people defend him on how he pushed to the very end, which unfortunately cost him.

Hamilton-fans and Fanboys... How i despise thee.
Kimi-haters... How i despise thee.

I'm in!

Besides, could you imagine Hamilton eating ice cream without his "Boy! I'm such a nice guy!" attitude? Agh!

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 14 Sep 2009, 20:53

DonTirri wrote:Kimi crashes out on the last lap with dry tyres on a very wet conditions while fighting from the lead and people walk all over him there.

Glock loses positions in the wet on dry tyres and people scream fix. It's swings and roundabouts. Don't imagine that Kimi is the only one who gets unfair criticism. In fact, most of the really irrational and hate-filled bias I've seen has been towards Hamilton. I'm not a Hamilton fan, in fact I was fairly happy about his crash (once I was sure he was okay, of course), but fair's fair. Hamilton is probably the most slandered and unfairly hated driver out there.

muttley · Post by **muttley** » 14 Sep 2009, 21:06

fjackdaw wrote:Hamilton is probably the most slandered and unfairly hated driver out there.

Yes, but he's the most hyped as well, so to ridicule him when he deserves it is not unfair at all.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 14 Sep 2009, 22:32

muttley wrote:
fjackdaw wrote:Hamilton is probably the most slandered and unfairly hated driver out there.

Yes, but he's the most hyped as well, so to ridicule him when he deserves it is not unfair at all.

No, not when he deserves it. That's fine. But I've seen so many people out there - the eurosport board is the worst - just inventing weird things to hate him for. And comments like, "he's not even really British", racist stuff like that. The Kimster gets off lightly I think... most of the stuff about him is ice cream based!

Pepys · Post by **Pepys** » 15 Sep 2009, 01:18

I can't quite understand people's disdain for Lewis Hamilton. He comes into F1 with the arguably best driver in the world at the time as his teammate in a car that was probably second quickest to the Ferrari. He keeps up with everyone, leads the championship, and in my opinion establishes himself as equal only to Fernando Alonso as the quickest in the field. He broke under pressure, quite reasonably for someone in their first year, but was almost entirely first-rate throughout.

Perhaps it's the media coverage in Britain? While the American broadcast team was never terribly biased, I've watched the ITV and BBC feeds of a couple races and the Lewisteria was overbearing. I could see getting sick of him after all that.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 15 Sep 2009, 04:11

Jordan192 wrote:
FloProAct wrote:
jackanderton wrote:It can't be Hamilton because he had nothing to lose.

Aside from third place...

What's third place though? Yeah, it's nice, but it's not:

A) McLaren's best result of the year.
B) Important championship points. Saying he has a championship chance is, while not technically untrue, not a realistic assesment by any means. Equally, McLaren aren't the sort of team with shaky "points means pounds" sponsorship deals, so there really was nothing to lose.

if they'd not won hungary, and this would have been McLaren's first podium of the year, then yeah, sit back and hold on to it. But have we not spent enough time watching drivers pootle round after settling for some points, or a podium? Even if he couldn't have caught Button and passed in straight conditions, applying the pressure at means Button might have to go beyond his comfort zone and make a mistake.

Pushing too hard, too much of the time is usually a feature people like in drivers (McRae, Mansell, McCarthy, Villeneuve Sr.), so I'm not really sure why it's seen as negative for Hamilton.

I can't believe you're actually suggesting pushing too hard and crashing is better than backing off a little bit and finishing third. That's a Rejectful statement itself.

Lewis might not be able to defend his title, but McLaren are currently engaged in a battle with Ferrari for third in the constructors' championship. They're currently fifteen points behind, and with four races to go there's a maximum of seventy-two points on the table. If Lewis had beaten Kimi, that gap would only be fourteen points, but with the Brawns returning to form, the Force Indias rising as a force to be reckoned with and the Red Bulls constantly on the hunt for points, every last point that McLaren score is going to be invaluable to their 2009 campaign. Especially since we've seen the drivers' title decided by a single point for the past two years running. Because let's say that Ferrari and McLaren end the year on equal points with no more wins to their names: Ferrari will take third in the standings because they had the most recent win, and Hamilton's stupid mistake will have cost McLaren dearly.

And call me crazy, but given the choice between pushing hard and crashing or backing off and taking third, I know I'd take the latter.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 Sep 2009, 06:34

I'm with Captain on this one. If McLaren lose 3rd to Ferrari by less than 6 points in the end it will most probably all go down to THAT moment.
Plus had Hamilton finished 3rd he would have leapfrogged Nico Rosberg in the championship standings. Hamilton will probably not get another chance to overtake the Williams Driver this season considering how strong the Williams Team will be at track like Singapore (2nd and 8th there last year in a midfield car) and Suzuka (Which is a mix between Spa and Silverstone and Williams have scored points at both tracks this year)
So frankly Hamilton has absolutly nothing to gain by pushing so hard near the end

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 15 Sep 2009, 07:52

Captain Hammer wrote:I can't believe you're actually suggesting pushing too hard and crashing is better than backing off a little bit and finishing third. That's a Rejectful statement itself.

Not quite, but I am saying taking a risk and getting bitten for it doesn't qualify you as "Worst thing about the entire race weekend".

Captain Hammer wrote:every last point that McLaren score is going to be invaluable to their 2009 campaign.

wizzie wrote:he would have leapfrogged Nico Rosberg in the championship standings

McLaren don't seem to feel that way. Maybe it's a failing on Whitmarsh's part, but they really don't seem overly bothered about the difference between 3rd and 4th in the constructors' - their main interest seems to be in pushing what the car's capable of on a given weekend. Likewise, 6th or 7th in the driver's championship is pretty much the same thing as far as Hamilton's concerned.

Captain Hammer wrote:And call me crazy, but given the choice between pushing hard and crashing or backing off and taking third, I know I'd take the latter.

So would I - but (apart from the crash) I know what i'd rather watch.

Tealy · Post by **Tealy** » 15 Sep 2009, 08:19

Jordan192 wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:And call me crazy, but given the choice between pushing hard and crashing or backing off and taking third, I know I'd take the latter.

So would I - but (apart from the crash) I know what i'd rather watch.

That's what I was going to say, I've never really supported Hamilton and this is the latest in a long line of unforced errors from him. But he is so much more fun to watch than the vast majority of drivers out there. The fact that people are still talking about the Toyota battle is testament to how much we want to see the drivers have a go even if it isnt entirely logical to do so.

My reject of the race - Fisichella. All the Ferrari fans getting on Badoer's back and tipping Fisi to be the next big thing really put too much pressure on a driver who has never gone well when expected to perform. His crash in practice was a sign of things to come. He had an anonymous race from 14th on the grid and only finished 9th because of Hamilton's slip up.

jackanderton · Post by **jackanderton** » 15 Sep 2009, 10:46

fjackdaw wrote:I have to stick up for the race itself, I thought it was pretty exciting. Lots of overtaking on the opening laps, and genuine uncertainty as to who the winner was going to be. Even my wife stayed awake, and commented how quick it had seemed.

Brawn are to thank for that. Their strategy meant that it would be at least halfway through the race before we discovered who the winner would most likely be, something which in most races this year has been decided, give or take by lap 5.

Plus going for a 1 stop strategy is an option which only works in quite a minority of occasions and Ross' smug face after qualifying was the ultimate tell that they were confident of a 1-2.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 15 Sep 2009, 21:37

Captain Hammer wrote:I can't believe you're actually suggesting pushing too hard and crashing is better than backing off a little bit and finishing third. That's a Rejectful statement itself.

Count me in for reject, then. F1 is about entertainment. The one reason why I positively detest creatures such as Button and Vettel is their constant calculations in order to assure points and whatever.

I don't care who wins the damn WDC. What we will remember most fondly are the hard chargers, like Mansell or Villeneuve, Senna, Alonso or Hamilton. Sure, Piquet was just as fast as Senna most of the time, but whom do people remember most fondly?

Who gives a toss? Find the limits, break them and, if necessary, crash in the process.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 16 Sep 2009, 09:25

CarlosFerreira wrote:What we will remember most fondly are the hard chargers, like Mansell or Villeneuve, Senna, Alonso or Hamilton.

If his Monza performance is what we can expect from him, the only thing anyone will remember Lewis Hamilton for wil be his hard charge into a brick wall.

You say you detest people who are calculating to keep themselves in the game ... but what does that make Hamilton's Brazil race last year? He was so tepid, and if Timo Glock hadn't had his tyre problems, Hamilton wouldn't be World Champion. If he was a hard charger like you say, he'd have gone for it.