Senna - the movie

[wmetcalf68]

Anyone going to be joining in on SennaWatch on Twitter?

8pm GMT on Sunday 8th Jan. F1 fans (and some stars) are watching Senna at the same time and tweeting about it.

Im @stupot94

I am! I'm @wmetcalf68

[DemocalypseNow]

Anyone going to be joining in on SennaWatch on Twitter?

8pm GMT on Sunday 8th Jan. F1 fans (and some stars) are watching Senna at the same time and tweeting about it.

Im @stupot94

I am! I'm @wmetcalf68

It's just going to be this all over again...

[stupot94]

It's just going to be this all over again...

That was going through my mind

"Senna Was Robbed in Monaco 84!" --Me

exact same time

"Oh crap. He has crashed " --Everyone else

[Phoenix]

I fear I'll be picking up my mother at that very hour, which is perhaps much more respectable an activity than worshipping Ayrton Senna and calling horrible things to Alain Prost and Jean-Marie Balestre on Twitter

[RonDenisDeletraz]

Twitter annoys me

[dr-baker]

I've never Twittered...

[Ferrim]

You don't know what you're missing!

[dr-baker]

I've never Twittered...

You don't know what you're missing!

A girlfriend?

[Ferrim]

So do I. Therefore I'm missing one thing where you're missing two!

[CoopsII]

OK, finally watched it. Amazing. Watched it with the wife so was relieved it wasnt a year-by-year docu. Read alot about non-F1 fans enjoying it and sure enough Mrs Coops did too. Ratzenbergers death upset her first, as it should, and when we got to The Accident she finally understood what losing Senna meant to so many people because she felt it too.

Theres plenty you could point out, Prost isnt evil for example, and in 1993 Mclaren also had active suspension but who cares? This was about Senna.

And I support Bruno because its what Ayrton would've wanted............

[AndreaModa]

Seeing this thread on the top of the pile again reminded me of the first Top Gear episode of the new series which aired last Sunday evening. The three guys went on a road trip testing out supercars that were equivalent to the Ferrari 458, through Italy, and at the end of the episode, ended up at Imola where they tried to beat a time set by the Stig's Italian cousin.

Of course, as is the usual with Top Gear, there was a brief montage to introduce Imola, with footage and/or pictures of various F1 crashes there over the years, including Senna's obviously. Didn't mention Ratzenberger once though through the entire thing, which annoyed me to quite a large degree. I hate that Roland is the 'forgotten man' of Imola '94, when in reality his crash was just as bad, if not worse, than Senna's.

[CoopsII]

I hate that Roland is the 'forgotten man' of Imola '94, when in reality his crash was just as bad, if not worse, than Senna's.

Worse? I reckon as the end results were the same they were pretty equal actually

Joking aside, I agree 100% with you regarding Ratzenberger being remembered. Hopefully the Senna movie will educate some. We wont forget anyway, I hope his family know this and it has helped them perhaps.

[DanielPT]

I hate that Roland is the 'forgotten man' of Imola '94, when in reality his crash was just as bad, if not worse, than Senna's.

Worse? I reckon as the end results were the same they were pretty equal actually

Joking aside, I agree 100% with you regarding Ratzenberger being remembered. Hopefully the Senna movie will educate some. We wont forget anyway, I hope his family know this and it has helped them perhaps.

I have to say that you are absolutely right... At least we remember Roland and it only takes a few to keep his memory alive.

[Ferrim]

I always say that it's the other way around actually. Would Ratzenberger be remembered if Senna hadn't been killed the next day? I believe he would be less remembered, not more. Just like Paletti, De Angelis and so many others.

[mario]

I always say that it's the other way around actually. Would Ratzenberger be remembered if Senna hadn't been killed the next day? I believe he would be less remembered, not more. Just like Paletti, De Angelis and so many others.

Paletti, sadly, is somewhat overshadowed because the race he was killed in was only his second race, and he has been involved in a start line crash in Detroit which meant he hadn't turned a lap in anger, as it were. It's tragic, but his career was so short that he didn't really have a chance to make any impression with the fans or in the paddock, plus he happened to have been killed reasonably shortly after Gilles Villeneuve (where the circumstances of Gilles's fatal crash added to the sense of poignancy).

[CoopsII]

I always say that it's the other way around actually. Would Ratzenberger be remembered if Senna hadn't been killed the next day? I believe he would be less remembered, not more.

Mrs Coops was surprised that, after Roland was killed, the race went ahead the next day. I told her that, sadly, had it been Senna lost on the Saturday then perhaps it wouldnt have.

[Barbazza]

Seeing this thread on the top of the pile again reminded me of the first Top Gear episode of the new series which aired last Sunday evening. The three guys went on a road trip testing out supercars that were equivalent to the Ferrari 458, through Italy, and at the end of the episode, ended up at Imola where they tried to beat a time set by the Stig's Italian cousin.

Of course, as is the usual with Top Gear, there was a brief montage to introduce Imola, with footage and/or pictures of various F1 crashes there over the years, including Senna's obviously. Didn't mention Ratzenberger once though through the entire thing, which annoyed me to quite a large degree. I hate that Roland is the 'forgotten man' of Imola '94, when in reality his crash was just as bad, if not worse, than Senna's.

In fairness, it is Top Gear though, where they pretend to care about F1 but don't really (Clarkson slags it off periodically in his books) as evidenced by them putting the Patrese and Piquet clips the wrong way round and the inability to pronounce Barrichello sensibly. Speaking of which, seeing his crash at normal speed for the first time in years made me realise how utterly amazing it was that he survived that.

[JeanDenisAlcatraz]

In fairness, it is Top Gear though, where they pretend to care about F1 but don't really (Clarkson slags it off periodically in his books) as evidenced by them putting the Patrese and Piquet clips the wrong way round and the inability to pronounce Barrichello sensibly. Speaking of which, seeing his crash at normal speed for the first time in years made me realise how utterly amazing it was that he survived that.

As I said on a TV forum discussing Top Gear, Prof. Watkins deserves a Knighthood.

[mario]

In fairness, it is Top Gear though, where they pretend to care about F1 but don't really (Clarkson slags it off periodically in his books) as evidenced by them putting the Patrese and Piquet clips the wrong way round and the inability to pronounce Barrichello sensibly. Speaking of which, seeing his crash at normal speed for the first time in years made me realise how utterly amazing it was that he survived that.

As I said on a TV forum discussing Top Gear, Prof. Watkins deserves a Knighthood.

As the Top Gear show last night demonstrated, out of the three presenters only Clarkson has any interest in F1 as a sport (Hammond has always shown a fair amount of disdain for F1 whilst May hasn't really given the impression that he is all that bothered about motor sport at all), and even then it is as much about criticising the drivers and teams as actually enjoying it.
As for Sid Watkins, yes, I agree fully that he does deserve greater recognition for his role - there are probably a number of drivers who owe their lives to him, both as an active medic and for his work with the FIA as an advisor. Sadly, I doubt that he will get that sort of recognition though - it is rare enough for individuals within motor sport to be awarded any sort of honour.

[eagleash]

So do Murray Walker & John Surtees. All three already hold the OBE. Apart from the well known knighthoods, lesser honours are fairly well distributed amongst the better known names. Heck even Ron Dennis is a CBE. World champs with British or Commonwealth nationality are usually awarded an MBE. (Hamilton, Button, Hulme...Damon has an OBE as did Clark. Graham Hill seems to have missed out).

[CoopsII]

Although I agree recognition is deserved the awards system is a nonsense and Im sure Syd would prefer the time and energy being put towards saving lives.

I mean, they even give these OBEs etc to bankers who squander our money and cause misery, Syd Watkins deserves better than being included in that group.

[ibsey]

Completely agree with the points made about Ratzenberger perhaps not been remembered as much as Senna & Watkins deserving a Knighthood. Well said IMO.

Also recently watched the Senna film for the 1st time & whislt I was blown away emotionally by it, particularly with all the previously unseen footage (i.e. driver's briefings & Imola 1994 etc). Firstly I did come away thinking the film was unfair to Prost. Obviously I know in a film about Senna, they weren't exactly going to praise Prost, but I fear that for non F1 fans they may have a slightly warped, negative view of Prost. I guess that just the way it is, but it seems a shame though as personally as I get older & wiser, i'm finding out there is much more to Prost's ability that I had first appreciated.

Secondly what struck me was how 'emotional' Senna appeared during the Imola 1994 weekend. I have heard it said that Gilles Villeneueve was also in an 'emotional state' prior to Belgium 1982 (for obvious reasons), & Jim Clark was also angry & worried about his car's handling (particularly his tyre grip) at that tragic F2 race in Hockenhiem 1968. All of which does highlight just how important driver psychology & being able to 'remove emotion' from your driving (as JYS puts it) is.

There was a great book on this exact subject (which also examined Palletti's crash & in particular supposed nightmare he or his mother experienced just prior to his crash) which I i read ages ago. Apologies I can't for the life of me remember what it was called, all I remember it had a picture from the onboard camara of Alesi's 1999 sauber in the Monaco pitlane on the front cover. But the point i'm trying to make, is being in the right frame of mind is / was vital for driving F1 cars (perhaps more than one might imagine).

[LionZoo]

There was a great book on this exact subject (which also examined Palletti's crash & in particular supposed nightmare he or his mother experienced just prior to his crash) which I i read ages ago. Apologies I can't for the life of me remember what it was called, all I remember it had a picture from the onboard camara of Alesi's 1999 sauber in the Monaco pitlane on the front cover. But the point i'm trying to make, is being in the right frame of mind is / was vital for driving F1 cars (perhaps more than one might imagine).

They put Jean Alesi on the cover of a book that talks about the right mindset for a racing driver?

[Ferrim]

They put Jean Alesi on the cover of a book that talks about the right mindset for a racing driver?

Maybe they put him as a wrong example

[CoopsII]

They put Jean Alesi on the cover of a book that talks about the right mindset for a racing driver?

For a certain era Alesi had the perfect mindset :

"I can make it, I CAN MAKE IT, I CAN MAKE IT!!!!

I crash it"

On his day the boy was lightning fast, I cant think of a team mate he didnt beat.

<goes off to check wikipedia>

[RonDenisDeletraz]

They put Jean Alesi on the cover of a book that talks about the right mindset for a racing driver?

For a certain era Alesi had the perfect mindset :

"I can make it, I CAN MAKE IT, I CAN MAKE IT!!!!

I crash it"

On his day the boy was lightning fast, I cant think of a team mate he didnt beat.

<goes off to check wikipedia>

Someone's never heard of Pedro Diniz.

[ibsey]

There was a great book on this exact subject (which also examined Palletti's crash & in particular supposed nightmare he or his mother experienced just prior to his crash) which I i read ages ago. Apologies I can't for the life of me remember what it was called, all I remember it had a picture from the onboard camara of Alesi's 1999 sauber in the Monaco pitlane on the front cover.

I've now remembered the name of the book for anyone interested, its called Deadly Obsessions by Phil Shirley.Its a great read which examines whether drivers like Senna, Gilles Villeneueve, Pironi etc, where in the 'right frame of mind' before taking part in the GP's which ultimately cost them their lives (or their career in Pironi's case). Although I'm not 100% just how true some of the stories contain within it are, like the one about Pironi dreaming about GV (in his Ferrari car) running over Pironi's legs, on the night before he had his accident at Hockenhiem 1982, & it was raining in Pironi's dream. Sounds a little too strange to be true to me?

They put Jean Alesi on the cover of a book that talks about the right mindset for a racing driver?

[Londoner]

Last night, the Senna movie won two BAFTA awards, for Best Documentary and Best Editing.

http://www.autosport.com/news/grapevine.php/id/97501

[karsten]

I always say that it's the other way around actually. Would Ratzenberger be remembered if Senna hadn't been killed the next day? I believe he would be less remembered, not more.

Mrs Coops was surprised that, after Roland was killed, the race went ahead the next day. I told her that, sadly, had it been Senna lost on the Saturday then perhaps it wouldnt have.

Being italian i would like to shed some light on this topic... If i remeber correctly i think the point was that in Italy sport or public competition HAVE TO be cancelled if someone dies on the track or place. I think the reason it wasn't cancelled was that Roland died outside the racetrack while brought to the hospital. or at least that's what was said right after the crash.

Also the problem of paying back the tickets must have been a factor, even tought i swear to you there was a weird feeling in the air and most people were wishing for a deletion of the race.

[dr-baker]

Also the problem of paying back the tickets must have been a factor, even tought i swear to you there was a weird feeling in the air and most people were wishing for a deletion of the race.

Were you there, or was that based upon reports from the track spectators afterwards?

[karsten]

Mostly comments on tv before Senna's death. there were talk of a stop already after barrichello's crash, due to imola's long string of dangerous crashes.

I was at imola one year before. And i'm glad i wasn't there on that week-end...

[dr-baker]

And i'm glad i wasn't there on that week-end...

I can imagine...

I was at Brands Hatch the day Henry Surtees died. But we knew nothing at the time of what happened. We knew there had been a crash bad enough to stop the F2 race, they had replayed the incident once or twice immediately after the incident on the big screen. The cars had lined up on the grid, in single file, by the pit wall in the meantime, but we were then informed that the next race was due to start as the F2 cars then peeled off slowly back to the paddock. The only other thing to happen was the next race being slightly delayed to allow the medical helicopter to take off (something I thought was strange, as I never thought the helicopter could stop track action before). The first I knew of his death was an internet search at home that evening, wanting to find out why the F2 race was not restarted (why put the emphasis on the next race being due on when F2 was the main event?).

But that was different to the events at Imola in 1994 - a totally horrific weekend.

[Londoner]

Tonight, I shall finally be watching Senna, as I got the DVD today as a birthday present.

[DanielPT]

Tonight, I shall finally be watching Senna, as I got the DVD today as a birthday present.

Subtle way to say it is your birthday today!


Just joking. Happy Birthday man!

[dr-baker]

Didn't really know whether to do a new thread or cover this here but I'll post it here because it tangentially is relevant.

I was talking to my my uni flatmates over dinner this evening and as usual, the conversation meandered all over the place. One of the areas the conversation moved to was mentioning Imola 1994. I was stating that I believed Italian law was that if Senna was declared dead at the scene, legally, the race would have to be indefinitely suspended. If that were the case, and the rest of the race did not happen (and recent posts on here seem to think that maybe it ought not to have gone ahead, particularly after what else had happened that sad weekend), then I realised to myself that Damon would actually have ended up as WDC of 1994. Considering that Damon was brave enough to continue racing that car tha day, and managed to develop that car into something that almost won the championship when he started off as the number 2 driver, maybe it could have been justice? But then Nicola Larini would not have got his sole podium in F1? And I remember reading on here recently about Verstappen making some barbed comments about Benetton's legality that year. To be honest, this is almost turning into a 'What If?' thread post. Should the results of Imola 1994 be annuled, pretending that the events ended as they did after Dan Wheldon's death last year? Is it a fair way of depriving Schumacher's Benetton of that year's title? Or do we celebrate Larini's podium, sombre though that occasion was?

And does this post belong here or in the 'What If' thread? (I don't mind copy&pasting it over if it is deemed appropriate.)

[ADx_Wales]

I think this is a "crossover" post Dr. Baker, or a mash up :-S.

IF The race was declared null and void in regards to Italian Law, then wouldn't the case for punishing the people that built Senna's car have been a stronger one?

[dr-baker]

I think this is a "crossover" post Dr. Baker, or a mash up :-S.

IF The race was declared null and void in regards to Italian Law, then wouldn't the case for punishing the people that built Senna's car have been a stronger one?

True. Talking about this to another guy this evening, and reckon the whole event should have been written off after Ratzenberger's death (knowing also how fortunate Barrichello had been as well). Personally, I reckon these are valid points, and had the rest of the season played out identically (let's assume that either the race was either stopped after Senna's death or he retired that weekend as he was sorely tempted to do - the race being annuled might have helped this decision), the Damon Hill would have won. With all the allegations towards Benetton that year, and what happened in Adelaide, and how Damon responded to being team leader at Williams (similar to Brabham's role at Simtek), it just somehow feels more just to me if Schumacher was only a 6-time champion...

[Wallio]

There was a great book on this exact subject (which also examined Palletti's crash & in particular supposed nightmare he or his mother experienced just prior to his crash) which I i read ages ago. Apologies I can't for the life of me remember what it was called, all I remember it had a picture from the onboard camara of Alesi's 1999 sauber in the Monaco pitlane on the front cover.

I've now remembered the name of the book for anyone interested, its called Deadly Obsessions by Phil Shirley.Its a great read which examines whether drivers like Senna, Gilles Villeneueve, Pironi etc, where in the 'right frame of mind' before taking part in the GP's which ultimately cost them their lives (or their career in Pironi's case). Although I'm not 100% just how true some of the stories contain within it are, like the one about Pironi dreaming about GV (in his Ferrari car) running over Pironi's legs, on the night before he had his accident at Hockenhiem 1982, & it was raining in Pironi's dream. Sounds a little too strange to be true to me?

They put Jean Alesi on the cover of a book that talks about the right mindset for a racing driver?

First post (long time lurker) but I had to register just to thank Ibsey for the tip on the book. Got a beat up copy off Amazon for $7.99 and its an amazing read. I stayed up until 1 am last night and am halfway through it already. To everyone I say Go Buy Now! lol

Back on topic, half to say while the footage and "behind-the scenes" action was incredible, the Senna movie was too propoganda for me. Yes I know it was about him, but come on, to gloss over his admiting to crashing Prost was unacceptable to me. We historians at least TRY to hide our biases.

That being said, I didn't hate it, and I agree and series of biopics on various drivers would be epic. And yes, Gilles needs to be first.

[ElizabethSterling]

The whole Prost thing was unnecessary, though Prost didn't help his case by actively lying about it even to this day. (I loved how much he squirmed when he was called on his "I didn't go to the stewards" line. I don't condone what Prost did in '89 or what Senna did in '90, I just wish Alain would be honest about it.) It could have been better with those elements more fully explained and more evenly explored for sure. I was also surprised the whole Irvine incident never made it in, though I suppose I can understand its omission more. Still, when a movie provides such wonderful insights all in all and you end up having to remind yourself it's silly crying over the loss of a man you never knew personally as you try to hold back a tear they really achieved most of their goals.

[ibsey]

Great to here you are enjoying the book & welcome to the forum by the way.

Even though I read the book some years ago now (an old housemate 'borrowed' my copy & I haven't seen it since) I remember thinking some of the stories contain within it, if they are true, then they are just staggering. Stories like the nightmare Pironi apparently experienced on the night before his accident in Germany 1982. Or the strange, unusually feelings both Senna & Gilles experienced at the race weekends that ultimately cost them their lives. Which the book argues should have been a warning to them not to have driven their cars.

So, it would be interesting know your thoughts as to whether you think their is any truth in these stories or not? Apologies, if I seem to be putting you on the spot on this (I don't mean to), & you are more than welcome to just ignore answering if you so wish. It just I haven't known anyone else to have read the book, & compare opinions with afterwards. There are only two reviews on Amazon (as far as I can see) none of which comment whether they feel the stories within the book have any truth in them or not?

To let you know my opinion, I believe undoubtably that Gilles & Senna did not have their usual 'clear mind' when stepping into their cars for the last time. Also, I believe these two drivers weren't as good as 'removing emotion' from their driving as say Prost or JYS was. This isn't intended as a critism to either Gilles or Senna (who I am both massive fans of), it's just the way they were. Emotional driven. Sometimes it worked for them, unfornately on this occassion it work horribly against them.

Furthermore judging from the footage contained within the Senna film of him in a seemly agitated state at Imola (particular when Senna was behind the SC gesturing for it to hurry up). Got me thinking maybe the stories contain within the book have got some truth to them? So do you think, as the book argues, that Senna & Gilles should have 'listened' to the strange unusual feelings they apparently experienced & couldn't shakeoff & therefore accepted that they weren't in a fit state mentally to drive (even though it was against what they as 'racers' ever knew). Or is it just fantasy & they were just very unlucky in their accidents?

It is an interesting topic, whether people in certain situations get either a kind of unusually warning, or 'strange' feeling when they are close to death. I recall Niki Lauda felt he was close to death immediately after his 1976 Nurburgring accident & stated that if he at that moment fell asleep. He knew he would never wake up. Furthermore I saw recently in a newspaper headline, Witney Houston, appartent said she was going to meet Jesus, just hours before her death (whether she was just saying that because she was too high at that point, I don't know, I didn't read beyond the headlines). Also, years ago, when my sister past way from an illness she had suffered from her whole life, appartently she told my mum, in her last few hours she could she my dad, whom had past away year's before, in the room.

I'm not really the sort of person who believe's in ghosts & such, nor am I hugely religiously either. However, I know from my uni days & from taking a few substances that I won't mention. There are certain things in life, that are too difficult to comprehend & explain, no matter how hard we try. Something I believe Senna took a couple of years to understand, about his Monaco 1988 'out of body experience'. So he stop trying to explain, or rationalize it to others & just accepted the experience for what it was (Senna talks about this in the 'lost interview' with Gerald Donaldson, one of the extra's on the Senna DVD). Also I recently watched a great programe called 'In Search of Wabi Sabi' which also felt linked to this subject. It's a japanese idea & one of it's teaching is stop trying to explain the unexplainable & just accpet it. Here's the utube video for anyone who's interested

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-In1lQd4Eno

As I say you are more than welcome to just ignore answering if you so wish, I know I am asking you a very tough question here. I was actually in two minds about whether to ask you about it, for fear of being branded 'crazy'. But what the hell... if you don't ask you don't get.