The Veterans Alternative Championship

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 28 Feb 2012, 13:46

I know someone made a start at this in response to the Junior Drivers Championship which has proved very popular, so I'm going to try and do this fully myself, in an attempt to "mirror" that one as closely as I can. I have thought about the criteria I would use for any drivers' eligibility for this and this is what I have come up with to start with, though I do intend to modify it very slightly when I reach a certain point in time:

1. Any driver aged 33 or over, and they are eligible from the calendar year they have their 33rd birthday.

2. Any driver who is still in the sport 10 years following their debut, even if they are aged under 33 - this means the younger they started their F1 careers, the earlier they will be eligible for this (eg Jenson Button will be eligible from 2010 having made his debut in 2000, even though he was only 30). Also the 10 years don't have to be continous, they just have to still be in the sport 10 years after their debut.

3. I will include former champions in this if they are old enough or have been in the sport long enough, however they cannot win the Veterans and main WDC in the same year, so in the event someone eligible does with the real championship, their results for that season will be wiped out and their wins and points redistributed. (So Alain Prost will become eligible in 1989, though his 1989 and 1993 results will be nullified).

I will start from 1960 - two reasons being as the Junior Championship started in 1959, the older drivers will have been annoyed there wasn;t one for them so protested, and also the "10 year rule" will apply properly from there too.

Before I go back to 1960, I will start in the present and say who is eligible for the 2012 championship, in car number order:

Mark Webber
Jenson Button
Fernando Alonso
Felipe Massa
Michael Schumacher
Kimi Raikkonen
Pedro De La Rosa
Narain Karthikeyan

You can see if I hadn't allowed in former champions and done the 10 year rule for Massa, the field would have been rather silly - Webber and 2 HRTs. I'm trying to create something realistic here and not trying to make reject drivers winners.

Hope you enjoy!!!

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 28 Feb 2012, 17:58

Read and approved!

Post by **tommykl** » 28 Feb 2012, 18:08

Approved, simply because starting in 1950 would be pointless. Only 20 drivers out of 80 would be ineligible, and even then only 7 of them weren't in the Indy 500.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 28 Feb 2012, 18:17

I'm not going to include the Indy 500 in the 1960 results BTW.

Also the rule I did consider for real Champions was to only allow them in after their last championship, but it would mean in some cases, several years' results being amended - for instance Nigel Mansell is age-wise eligible from 1987, but didn't win the championship until 1992, retrospectively going back through 6 years' worth of results would just be totally unrealistic but doing it at the end of each year makes a lot more sense.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 28 Feb 2012, 20:47

1960

Olivier Gendebien 35 (4 wins)
Maurice Trintignant 15 (1 win)
Giulio Cabianca 8 (1 win)
Roy Salvadori 8 (1 win)
Carlos Menditeguy 6 (1 2nd)
Ron Flockhart 6 (1 2nd)
Edgar Barth 6 (1 2nd)
Chuck Daigh 2 (1 2nd)
Brian Naylor 6 (1 3rd)
Jose Froilan Gonzalez 4 (1 3rd)
Piero Drogo 4 (1 3rd)
Pete Lovely 4 (1 3rd)
Roberto Bonomi 3 (1 4th)
Wolfgang Seidel 3 (1 4th)
Robert Drake 2 (1 5th)

Race winners:

Argentina: Trintignant
Monaco & Holland: no classified finishers
Belgium, France, Great Britain and Portugal: all Gendebien
Italy: Cabianca
USA: Salvadori

Jack Brabham was eligible agewise (born in 1926) but of course he took the main championship, so Gendebien wins mainly by dint of being the only eligible regular driver.

(I wasn't quite sure what to do about Argentina as Trintignant shared cars with Moss, but as other drivers behind him weren't promoted it would have the stupid situation of no winner but other finishers)!!!

1961 promises to be better with Phil Hill being old enough and Stirling Moss having started in 1951 also being eligible.

BTW - sorry but I haven't yet figured out how to post photos of the winning drivers (let alone how to find any suitable ones)!!!!

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 28 Feb 2012, 22:58

James1978 wrote:1961 promises to be better with Phil Hill being old enough and Stirling Moss having started in 1951 also being eligible.

BTW - sorry but I haven't yet figured out how to post photos of the winning drivers (let alone how to find any suitable ones)!!!!

But didn't Phil Hill win the championship in 1961, a year before Graham Hill?

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 28 Feb 2012, 23:03

dr-baker wrote:
James1978 wrote:1961 promises to be better with Phil Hill being old enough and Stirling Moss having started in 1951 also being eligible.

BTW - sorry but I haven't yet figured out how to post photos of the winning drivers (let alone how to find any suitable ones)!!!!

But didn't Phil Hill win the championship in 1961, a year before Graham Hill?

He certainly did but this wasn't known at the start of the year. ;-)

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 28 Feb 2012, 23:21

James1978 wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
James1978 wrote:1961 promises to be better with Phil Hill being old enough and Stirling Moss having started in 1951 also being eligible.

BTW - sorry but I haven't yet figured out how to post photos of the winning drivers (let alone how to find any suitable ones)!!!!

But didn't Phil Hill win the championship in 1961, a year before Graham Hill?

He certainly did but this wasn't known at the start of the year.

Gotcha!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 29 Feb 2012, 20:32

1961

Stirling Moss 33 (3 wins - MON NED GER)
Roy Salvadori 30 (2 wins - FRA ITA)
Maurice Trintignant 18 (3 2nd)
Jack Brabham 15 (1 win - GBR)
Olivier Gendebien 9 (1 win - BEL)
Wolfgang Seidel 4 (1 3rd)

USA had no winner, the only eligible finisher was Gendebien and he car-shared so was ineligible to score!

Phil Hill of course was eligible agewise but won the main championship - so the Veterans championship went to Moss in his last season by dint of him debuting in 1951. Though Salvadori ran him very close, he'd have been champion if his car had lasted the last 4 laps at Watkins Glen.

(Maybe I should have done a version with Phil Hill in the results up to the point he was crowned champion, maybe I'll do that in some later years but that's not an issue again until 1966. Also I haven't stated any eligible drivers who failed to register a finish, I'll probably do that in later years too).

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 29 Feb 2012, 22:31

1962

Jack Brabham 37 (3 wins - GBR USA RSA)
Phil Hill 33 (3 wins - NED MON BEL)
Willy Mairesse 15 (1 win - ITA)
Maurice Trintignant 13 (1 win - FRA)
Heini Walter (who?) 9 (1 win - GER)
Tony Settember 6 (1 2nd)
Rob Schroeder 6 (1 2nd)
John Love 6 (1 2nd)
Jay Chamberlain 4 (1 3rd)
Hap Sharp 4 (1 3rd)

This looked like being Hill's as he won the first three races but Brabham overcame him in the last race where Hill didn't even take part!

I have to say from Heini Walter downwards (except fro John Love featured on this site) are all drivers I've never heard of!

1963 will see the Veterans debut of the defending WDC Graham Hill, as he turns 34.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 01 Mar 2012, 21:08

1963

Graham Hill 51 (54) (5 wins - MON FRA GBR USA RSA)
Jack Brabham 45 (48) (3 wins - GER ITA MEX)
Maurice Trintignant 10 (1 2nd)
John Love 6 (1 2nd)
Phil Hill 4 (1 3rd)
Peter Broeker 4 (1 3rd)
Hap Sharp 4 (1 3rd)
Doug Serrurier 4 (1 3rd)

No finishers in either Belgium or the Netherlands.

Um....yeah. Only 2 significant runners, thank goodness I included former champions!

Still, a lot of regulars were born in 1930 or 1931 so this thing should pick up soon!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 04 Mar 2012, 13:05

1964

Graham Hill 54 (62) (6 wins - MON NED FRA GBR GER USA)
Richie Ginther 45 (59) (2 wins - AUT ITA)
Jack Brabham 30 (1 win - BEL)
Phil Hill 22 (2 2nd)
Innes Ireland 20 (2 2nd)
Jo Bonnier 16 (4 3rd)
Maurice Trintignant 8 (1 2nd)
Walt Hansgen 4 (1 3rd)
Hap Sharp 2 (1 5th)

As only the best 6 scores counted, it was a perfect score for Hill. Ginther finished every race but had to drop lots of points finishes. More activity this year as Ginther, Ireland and Bonnier joined the series.

Another significant runner, Dan Gurney, will join the series in 1965.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 04 Mar 2012, 13:18

For now it's just real champions winning it... yes, I know Moss actually isn't, but you get my point

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 04 Mar 2012, 13:53

Ferrim wrote:For now it's just real champions winning it... yes, I know Moss actually isn't, but you get my point

Remeber Gendebien!

Anyway on to:

1965

Graham Hill 54 (75) (7 wins - RSA MON FRA GBR GER ITA USA)
Dan Gurney 39 (42) (1 win - NED)
Jack Brabham 23 (1 win - BEL)
Richie Ginther 21 (1 win - MEX)
Jo Bonnier 19 (1 2nd)
Bob Anderson 10 (1 2nd)
Frank Gardner 9 (1 3rd)
Innes Ireland 8 (2 4th)
Sam Tingle 3 (1 4th)
Ian Raby 2 (1 5th)
Roberto Bussinello 2 (1 5th)

Another perfect score for Hill - this time he even had to drop a win, though Brabham is becoming something of a Spa specialist! An excellent second half of the season made Gurney the runner-up.

It remains to be seen just how many titles Hill has in him, he has plenty more seasons yet and only 1968 he'll be ineligible for.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 04 Mar 2012, 15:07

1966

Graham Hill 36 (4 wins - MON GBR NED GER)
Mike Parkes 18 (2 wins - FRA ITA)
Richie Ginther 18 (2 wins - BEL MEX)
Dan Gurney 18 (3 2nd)
Guy Ligier 10 (1 2nd)
Bob Anderson 10 (1 2nd)
Jo Bonnier 10 (1 2nd)
Jo Schlesser 4 (1 3rd)
Hans Herrmann 3 (1 4th)

USA had no finishers.

Four in a row for Hill but not as convincing as previous years - Jack Brabham would have won this had he not been crowned the main champion. Very few finishers - only one race, Germany had more than 3 finishers.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 04 Mar 2012, 23:10

1967

Jack Brabham 67 (73) (7 wins - NED FRA GBR GER CAN ITA MEX)
Graham Hill 22 (2 wins - MON USA)
Jo Bonnier 19 (2 2nd)
Guy Ligier 18 (1 2nd)
Bob Anderson 16 (2 2nd)
Dan Gurney 15 (1 win - BEL)
John Love 9 (1 win - RSA)
Ludovico Scarfiotti 6 (1 2nd)

Brabham becomes the second multiple champion after Hill's quest for 5 in a row is halted by terrible reliability, though he does win Monaco again! Brabham was beaten to the main championship by his teammate Denny Hulme but had a dominant performance here.

Bob Anderson showed well early in the season but tragically died in testing and didn't win a race.

Two more significant runners will start in 1968 - former world champion John Surtees who was born in 1934, and Bruce McLaren now driving as team owner, he debuted way back in 1958!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 05 Mar 2012, 19:31

1968

Bruce McLaren 47 (3 wins - BEL CAN MEX)
John Surtees 36 (4 wins - RSA FRA GBR USA)
Jo Bonnier 24 (2 wins - NED ITA)
Lucien Bianchi 15 (1 win - MON)
Ludovico Scarfiotti 15 (1 win - ESP)
Jack Brabham 13 (1 win - GER)
Dan Gurney 12 (2 2nd)
John Love 6 (1 2nd)

With Graham Hill eliminated due to being main champion, it's a year of very few finishers, three was the highest number in any race, but by scoring 7 times, McLaren benefitting from the 10 year rule did enough. After Monaco Bianchi and Scarfiotti were tied for the lead (and at the time of Scarfiotti's death) - he was awarded the Spain win posthoumously as Hill was ahead of him but it wasn't known at the time Hill would be main champion (though it was fairly likely as he easily led the points) .

Brabham had no chance of defending his title, he only registered a mere two finishes! :shock:

EDIT - I should have mentioned Jo Schlesser who was eligible for this was also killed during the season.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 05 Mar 2012, 20:26

1969

Bruce McLaren 63 (5 wins - ESP FRA GBR GER ITA)
Graham Hill 44 (2 wins - RSA MON)
Jack Brabham 33 (3 wins - NED CAN MEX)
John Surtees 19 (1 win - USA)
Vic Elford 19 (2 2nd)
Pete Lovely 10 (1 2nd)
Sam Tingle 4 (1 3rd)

Again, very few finishers but McLaren came through again, more convincing than his 1968 championship. Hill had a great start but couldn't keep it going, he retired from all the last 3 rounds. Apart from McLaren, only other ex-world champions won races.

1970 promises to be better with Jo Siffert and Denny Hulme due to join the series.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 06 Mar 2012, 20:14

1970

Denny Hulme 60 (4 wins - GER ITA USA MEX)
Jack Brabham 52 (4 wins - RSA MON FRA GBR)
Jo Siffert 35 (2 wins - BEL AUT)
John Surtees 28 (2 wins - NED CAN)
Graham Hill 25 (1 2nd)
Bruce McLaren 9 (1 win - ESP)
Dan Gurney 4 (1 3rd)
John Love 3 (1 4th)
Peter De Klerk 1 (1 6th)

McLaren's quest for a hat-trick started well with victory in Spain but tragically was killed in a Can-Am race soon after. After that it was Brabham, himself going for a third Veterans' title, making the running, with 4 wins coming in the first half of the season, but the determined Hulme put on a fanstastic late-season charge to overhaul Brabham at the last race, and was particularly poignant given what had happened to his team owner and countryman earlier in the year. Brabham signed off with 3 drivers titles, 2 Veterans titles and 24 Veterans' race wins (two short of Graham Hill's current total of 26).

Surprisingly Graham Hill failed to win a race, and also in South Africa there was a very rare happening - someone eligible finishing but outside the points (Dave Charlton). The fields are usually so small that finishing guarantees points!

Another top driver, Jean-Pierre Beltoise, will join in 1971.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 07 Mar 2012, 19:33

1971

Jo Siffert 50 (4 wins - FRA AUT ITA USA)
John Surtees 45 (3 wins - NED GBR GER)
Denny Hulme 35 (3 wins - RSA ESP MON)
Graham Hill 29 (3 2nd)
Jean-Pierre Beltoise 26 (3 2nd)
Mark Donohue 9 (1 win - CAN)
Jo Bonnier 8 (1 2nd)
Brian Redman 6 (1 2nd)
Vic Elford 4 (1 3rd)
John Cannon 3 (1 4th)

Now this one was really tragic.

It was Hulme who looked favourite to defend his title with 3 consecutive wins at the start of the year, but he only scored a mere 8 points after Monaco. Then Surtees took over in his final full season with a great mid-seaon run, only to struggle at the end and lose to Siffert's late-season charge. Siffert only clinched it at the last race, so he was champion for just 3 weeks before he was killed in the non-championship race at Brands.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 07 Mar 2012, 21:15

BTW, does anyone have that spreadsheet where all F1 drivers were ordered by year of birth?

I'm thinking of changing the rules for the rest of the 70s (mainly becuase 1972 has a ridiculously small field under my existing rules), and I want to see who will be included in which years if I change the criteria.

I had planned to change the lower age limit (but keep the 10 year rule and ex-champions rule) from 1994 as the field overall got a lot younger from that year - but I might do it earlier depending on the situation!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 08 Mar 2012, 19:25

Nobody?

OK then here's what I'm going to do:

Having looked on Wikipedia there seems to be a bit of a dearth of drivers born in the years 1938 and 1947, especially the top ones. So, from 1972 to 1979 I will modify the lower age limit to 33, then go back to 34 again from 1980, then as I originally planned go back to 33 from 1994 (I had planned this around Senna's death and such).

That way nobody misses out on a year they should have been in.

I didn't want the age being 33 in the late 80s/early 90s primarily becuase I didn't want Mansell included in 1986, Prost in 1988 and Senna in 1993! ;-)

The 10-year and World Champions rule will stay.

Anyone want to predict some later-day champions (if you're still reading)? ;-)

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 08 Mar 2012, 21:44

James1978 wrote:Anyone want to predict some later-day champions (if you're still reading)?

I'm still reading, but don't wish to predict!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 08 Mar 2012, 22:30

Here we go then!

1972

Denny Hulme 66 (4 wins - RSA BEL AUT ITA)
Jackie Stewart 48 (4 wins - ARG FRA CAN USA)
Peter Revson 46 (1 win - GBR, 6 2nd)
Clay Regazzoni 32 (2 wins - ESP GER)
Graham Hill 27 (4 3rd)
Jean-Pierre Beltoise 24 (1 win - MON)
Brian Redman 14 (1 2nd)
John Love 2 (1 5th)
Skip Barber 2 (1 5th)

When the full entry list for 1972 was announced, it was decided to lower the age eligibility to 33, since it was a very small field, and as no drivers were born in 1938, Stewart, Revson and Regazzoni, all born in 1939 were allowed in to make it a better championship and give otherwise champion-elect Hulme some competition. Hulme still managed to win anyway, he had the upper hand against Revson at McLaren, while Stewart and Regazzoni had the speed but poor reliability and couldn't challenge. Most of Stewart's wins were as in the main championship anyway so it was certainly odd as he actually beat Hulme in the main standings (though both were behind Emerson Fittipaldi of course)!!!

(BTW the original version I did of this looked really stupid - Hulme was something like 50 points in front of Hill in 2nd!!!)

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 09 Mar 2012, 14:28

TBH, if the limit was 33 1993 could have battle of Senna and Hill!

I did some predictions from 1984 onwards but I will publish them when we are bit closer that in the predictions.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 09 Mar 2012, 18:14

Bleu wrote:TBH, if the limit was 33 1993 could have battle of Senna and Hill!

Yeah I wanted them both eliminated - but there's still lots of drivers eligible without them.

The main reason I change it after 1994 is that I think 1996 would only have 2 drivers eligible without Hill, 1998 and 2000 would only have three drivers eligible too IIRC. I was thinking about reducing it to 32 even but didn't want to vary it too much. Besides the 10 year rule helps the likes of Barrichello and Button.

It's all about field sizes, there are plenty of 34+ drivers in the 80s and early 90s so it goes back up again.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 11 Mar 2012, 12:59

1973

Peter Revson 85 (7 wins - RSA MON GBR NED GER ITA CAN)
Denny Hulme 82 (85) (5 wins - ARG BRA SWE FRA USA)
Clay Regazzoni 40 (3 2nd)
Jean-Pierre Beltoise 35 (1 win - AUT)
George Follmer 22 (1 win - ESP)
Mike Hailwood 20 (1 2nd)
Graham Hill 18 (1 2nd)
Mike Beuttler 18 (1 3rd)
Chris Amon 12 (1 win - BEL)
Nanni Galli 4 (1 3rd)
Luiz Bueno 3 (1 4th)

Very much an in-house fight at McLaren once Stewart was eliminated by winning the main championship. It was Hulme who made the early running but Revson dominated the second half of the season, and 2nd behind his teammate in the last race was enough. Hulme tied on points but had to drop a 4th from the first half of the season but he'd have still lost on having less wins.

But again it's another champion who wasn't around to enjoy it for long.

Chris Amon gets in having started in 1963 even though he was still only 30, and scored a win in Belgium for a reject Constructor (Tecno) and there's also a win for a quite obscure driver in George Follmer.

wmetcalf68 · Post by **wmetcalf68** » 11 Mar 2012, 16:18

This is an interesting championship!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 11 Mar 2012, 18:41

wmetcalf68 wrote:This is an interesting championship!

Thanks!

Anyway on to:

1974

Clay Regazzoni 97 (9 wins - BRA ESP BEL MON NED FRA GBR GER CAN)
Denny Hulme 61 (3 wins - ARG AUT ITA)
Graham Hill 49 (50) (2 wins - SWE USA)
Mike Hailwood 34 (3 2nd)
Jean-Pierre Beltoise 29 ( 1 win - RSA)
Vittorio Brambilla 23 (1 2nd)
David Hobbs 7 (1 3rd)
Chris Amon 6 (1 2nd)
Brian Redman 4 (1 3rd)
Derek Bell 4 (1 3rd)
Mario Andretti 4 (1 3rd)
Mark Donohue 3 (1 4th)
Howden Ganley 2 (1 5th)
Dieter Quester 2 (1 5th)
Dave Charlton 1 (1 6th)

Pretty inevitable really given how close Regazzoni was the winning the main championship that year. I did expect Hulme to be closer than that mind you. Also Graham Hill picks up his first wins since 1969!

1974 was the last season of several significant drivers - mainly Hulme but also Beltoise, Hailwood (who was unlucky enough to get lots of podiums but no wins), and the last full season for Graham Hill. Speaking of which I can't believe he went on that long, surely he rivals his son for "Hang Up The Keys"? ;-)

Anyway, for 1975 Carlos Reutemann will debut in this and also Mario Andretti will run a full programme with Parnelli, this should fill some of the void left by the retirees.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 11 Mar 2012, 22:12

One more for tonight:

1975

Carlos Reutemann 76 (80) (7 wins - ARG RSA ESP MON BEL SWE GER)
Clay Regazzoni 54 (3 wins - BRA NED ITA)
Mark Donohue 30 (1 win - GBR)
Mario Andretti 28 (1 win - FRA)
Vittorio Brambilla 25 (2 wins - AUT USA)
Gijs Van Lennep 12 (1 2nd)
Lella Lombardi 11 (2 3rd*)
Jean-Pierre Jabouille 6 (1 2nd)
Chris Amon 6 (2 3rd*)
Graham Hill 5 (1 4th)
Dave Charlton 4 (1 3rd)
John Nicholson 2 (1 5th)

Maybe controversially the title goes to a 33-year old but Reutemann was impressive here and defending champion Regazzoni really struggled compared to last year, especially given the car he had! Two deaths in the field - Mark Donohue having won the chaotic British GP and 4-time champion Graham Hill at the end of the year, though he had retired from driving earlier in the season.

And another win for a reject constructor, this time Parnelli, also a female driver on the podium!!!

New entries to the series for 1976 will include late-starter Jacques Laffite in only his second full season, and 31-year old Jacky Ickx who made his debut in 1966.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 11 Mar 2012, 22:21

James1978 wrote:One more for tonight:

1975

Lella Lombardi 11 (2 3rd*)

..., also a female driver on the podium!!!

This I like!!!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 12 Mar 2012, 20:39

1976

Clay Regazzoni 85 (6 wins - BRA USW BEL NED ITA USA)
Jacques Laffite 53 (3 wins - MON SWE AUT)
Mario Andretti 52 (4 wins - RSA FRA CAN JPN)
Jacky Ickx 23 (1 2nd)
Vittorio Brambilla 21 (1 2nd)
Chris Amon 20 (2 2nd)
Carlos Reutemann 19 (1 win - ESP)
Rolf Stommelen 11 (1 win - GER)
Henri Pescarolo 10 (1 3rd)
Arturo Merzario 9 (1 2nd)
Alessandro Pesenti-Rossi 6 (2 4th)
Lella Lombardi 5 (1 4th)
Guy Edwards 2 (1 5th)

No classified finishers at the British GP.

Well he was in a Ferrari after all. This was looking a good 3 way battle until the last few races when Regazzoni got 3 wins and 2 2nds. I was certainly surprised Laffite beat Andretti for 2nd though. Carlos Reutemann had a dreadful defence of his title and didn't even get to finish the year as he was supposed to replace Lauda at Ferrari but the Austrian came back early at Monza to take his seat! However as the Argentine driver gets a full-time seat at Ferrari for 1977 and replacing Regazzoni, he is looking favourite for 1977, but still competition will be provided by Andretti, and also Patrick Depailler and Ronnie Peterson (both driving 6-wheeler Tyrrells) amongst others will be making their debuts.

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 13 Mar 2012, 10:32

So here is how I see it going in some of the later years:

1985 Rosberg should win as Lauda had very dismal season.
1986 Piquet enters this championship and wins it.
1987 Mansell and Piquet are both eligible. As Piquet wins the real-life title, this goes to Mansell.
1988 Piquet should be back on top as Williams had awful season with two eligible full-time drivers (Schlesser is also eligible)
1989 Prost is eligible by age but he won the title real-life. This should go to Patrese as he was more reliable than Mansell.
1990 Prost should win it easily.
1991 Mansell was in the real-life title hunt, so he should take this. 1990 and 1991 are great seasons for this with Prost, Mansell, Piquet and Patrese eligible!
1992 Mansell wins real-life title so this goes to Patrese
1993 Patrese might win this one too, although Brundle challenges him well
1994 Quite easy win for Hill
1995 As in year before
1996 Berger didn't have very good season overall but there aren't really better candidates since Hill won the title real-life.
1997 With Hill down in Arrows Berger should take it. He finished most of the races so even the three-race-break doesn't affect him.
1998 With the limit of 34, Hill is back on top. With 33, Irvine wins.
1999 Irvine wins no question about it.
2000 Mika Salo finished quite many races and was in points four times in real-life. However at 33, Frentzen might win.
2001 Häkkinen wins despite some awful reliability.
2002 Irvine didn't have a very good season but I can't see anyone else winning
2003 Barrichello enters this with 10-season rule and he wins.
2004 Rubens dominates.
2005 Michael Schumacher has been eligible since 2001 but he has won four titles and therefore being ineligible. But not for this one.
2006 Schumacher again.
2007 Two Italians are now in the veteran category. Fisichella didn't have too much retirements so I believe he wins.
2008 Might be Italian winning again, but this time it's Trulli
2009 Barrichello strikes back!
2010 Webber and Button battle it out but I think Aussie wins
2011 Button takes the title with good results overall. Webber and Alonso are also in the mix but it's not enough.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 13 Mar 2012, 12:29

Damn, I thought Piquet was really a year younger than he actually is and he wouldn't be eligible for 1986.

I am definitely making the lower age limit 33 after 1994 as well, to avoid some years with only two drivers eligible!!

I'm doing this year by year, i.e. working out one year's results then posting it, so don't know any future results (apart from 2007 which I did to see what a recent year looked like), I think possible differences to what Bleu has posted:

1988 might be Warwick (possibly wishful thinking mind you!)
1993 hopefully will be Brundle's (wishful thinking again!)
1997 Alesi will be in as he turns 33 so he should beat Berger I reckon
2001 I hope will be Alesi with him only DNFing one race (wishful thinking!).
2002 could be Salo in the Toyota?
2005 Michael could be challenged by Rubens as I think he finished more races (hopefully again - though Michael's forceful moves in Monaco and Indy could prove decisive!)

Also very much looking forward to doing 1978 - 84 (especially 1981 as it could be close between 4 drivers - Jones, Reutemann, Laffite and Watson).

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 13 Mar 2012, 23:02

1977

Carlos Reutemann 85 (5 wins - BRA MON GER AUT JPN)
Mario Andretti 64 (5 wins - USW ESP FRA ITA USA)
Jacques Laffite 52 (3 wins - SWE GBR NED)
Vittorio Brambilla 46 (5 2nd)
Patrick Depailler 44 (2 wins - RSA CAN)
Ronnie Peterson 28 (1 win - BEL)
Clay Regazzoni 24 (2 2nd)
Carlos Pace 11 (1 win - ARG)
Vern Schuppan 10 (2 3rd)
Danny Ongais 4 (1 3rd) !!!!!!
Arturo Merzario 3 (1 4th)
Jacky Ickx 2 (1 5th)
Kunimitsu Takahashi 2 (1 5th)
Jackie Oliver 1 (1 6th)

Consistency is the key here. Andretti even finished ahead of Reutemann in the main championship but 4 of his 5 wins here were as in the main championship, Reutemann had lots of lower finshes to gain from. Brambilla had a good season but unluckily scored 6 podiums without a win. Carlos Pace became eligible this year and won in Argentina just before his death.

Reutemann looks to be the one of the favourites again for 1978 as he's now the lead Ferrari driver, along with Ronnie Peterson who moves to Lotus (ahem...with Andretti of course). Don't think there's any significant entrants!!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 14 Mar 2012, 18:23

1978 (after Dutch GP)

Mario Andretti 72
Ronnie Peterson 58
Carlos Reutemann 48
Jacques Laffite 39
Patrick Depailler 37
Clay Regazzoni 11
Brett Lunger 11
Vittorio Brambilla 11
Rolf Stommelen 9
Jean-Pierre Jabouille 6
Jacky Ickx 1

You all know Andretti is about to eliminate himself but I thought I'd post what the championship would have looked like before that Monza day.......(Depailler is the only one outside the top 3 to win a race BTW)

Update to post later!!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 15 Mar 2012, 00:23

1978 (part 2)

At Monza, Peterson who was the only challenger to teammate Andretti in the main championship (though Reutemann could still catch him in this) was tragically involved in a first-lap accident and died the following day in hospital. This meant that Andretti was now wiped from the Veterans results, and after Andretti's points were redistributed, Peterson led with 73 but two drivers could still catch him, Reutemann with 63 and Laffite with 57, either one could deny Peterson the posthoumous title.

Reutemann won overall at Watkins Glen to close within a point of Peterson and surely would just have to finish in Canada, but would need 5th as Peterson had more wins (7 to his 5). Laffite came 3rd and his chances were now over.

Reutemann clinched it in Canada with another Veterans' win (and 3rd overall), while a lot of the purists thought it should have gone to Peterson, at least unlike 1971 and 1973 the champion was still going to be around to enjoy it, and his 3rd in 4 years! Reliability rules again.

Final standings:

Carlos Reutemann 81 (6 wins - BRA USW GBR ITA USA CAN)
Ronnie Peterson 73 (7 wins - RSA BEL ESP SWE FRA AUT NED)
Jacques Laffite 61 (1 win - GER)
Patrick Depailler 52 (2 wins - ARG MON)
Clay Regazzoni 18 (2 2nd)
Jean-Pierre Jabouille 17 (1 2nd)
Brett Lunger 17 (1 3rd)
Vittorio Brambilla 15 (1 3rd)
Rolf Stommelen 14 (1 3rd)
Jacky Ickx 2 (1 5th)

There will be a MASSIVE influx of drivers eligible in 1979 BTW (and Veterans Champion Reutemann joins main champion Andretti at Lotus!)!!!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 15 Mar 2012, 00:27

BTW, I'm toying with the idea of keeping the lower age limit 33 for the 80s and early 90s, then decreasing it to 32 from 1994. (Rather than 34 and 33 respectively) - but I'd like to ask what people will prefer?

(Maybe I could find some way of DQing Prost from 1988 on some sort of technicality). :lol:

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 Mar 2012, 05:03

James1978 wrote:(Maybe I could find some way of DQing Prost from 1988 on some sort of technicality).

That technicality being he would have won the championship had all results counted :lol:

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 15 Mar 2012, 19:59

Wizzie wrote:
James1978 wrote:(Maybe I could find some way of DQing Prost from 1988 on some sort of technicality).

That technicality being he would have won the championship had all results counted

Great idea! If I didn't do that then would look ridiculously stupid (he'd win every race apart from Silverstone and Monza).

There could be some great duels if I do that (ie 1986 will be Piquet v Mansell, 1993 Senna v Hill) but it would probably mean an obscure driver (like De Cesaris) would probably not win a race.
I'm trying to weigh it up!!

Anyway I have the next year ready:

1979

Alan Jones 45 (52) (5 wins - USW GER AUT NED CAN)
Jacques Laffite 45 (3 wins - ARG BRA BEL)
Clay Regazzoni 42 (49) (3 wins - MON GBR ITA)
John Watson 34 (38) (1 win - USA, 5 3rd)
Jean-Pierre Jarier 31 (1 win - RSA)
Carlos Reutemann 29 (37) (4 2nd)
Mario Andretti 26 (3 2nd)
Patrick Depailler 22 (25) (1 win - ESP)
Emerson Fittipaldi 17 (1 2nd)
Jochen Mass 14 (16) (2 4th)
Jean-Pierre Jabouille 10 (1 win - FRA)
Jacky Ickx 7 (1 3rd)

I did actually want this to be Laffite's, but Jones definitely deserved to win on countback - he would have won anyway without the "4 from each half" rule, and indeed Regazzoni would have made it a Williams 1-2!! Depailler was well in it too before a hang-gliding accident ended his season - his replacement Ickx who was also eligible for this was disappointing in comparison and of little help to Laffite, but Williams were probably unbeatable anyway with neither Ferrari driver eligible.

Watson and Jarier also win races in their first eligible seasons, but strange that Lotus don't despite lots of podiums. The 4 race rule seemed out to blunt Reutemann's challenge especially!

Useless bit of trivia - first season since 1972 the champion didn't have a surname beginning with R.

And another useless bit of trivia - the top 6 finishers in Argentina were all the same as in reality!!!