The Veterans Alternative Championship

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 17 Mar 2012, 08:46

1980

Carlos Reutemann 72 (84) (6 wins - BEL MON GBR ITA CAN USA)
Jacques Laffite 58 (65) ((4 wins - RSA FRA GER NED)
Jean-Pierre Jarier 33 (2 2nd)
Jochen Mass 31 (1 win - BRA)
John Watson 26 (3 2nd)
Emerson Fittipaldi 23 (1 win - USW)
Mario Andretti 13 (2 3rd)
Jean-Pierre Jabouille 12 (1 win - AUT)
Clay Regazzoni 1 (1 6th)

No classified finishers in Argentina.

Oh go home Carlos! ;-)

He absolutely steamrollered the second half of the season, and even had to lose 2 2nd places but not even the dropped scores rule could hurt him. The Williams was the car to have again, especially when his teammate took himself out of the equation by winning the championship. Laffite also had a great season but couldn't do anything to stop Reutemann.

Nice to see the Arrows and Fittipaldi teams win races, especially for Emerson in his last season!

BTW, I have decided to keep the lower age limit at 33 then possibly decrease it to 32 in the mid-90s, the keep the field a decent size. I did a spreadsheet of who would be eligible for which years and even 1984 would only have 4 drivers eligible at 34 once you take Lauda out of the equation. I will get Prost on the technicality for 1988 though. Just wait and see ;-)

I might look at seeing how it affects the earlier years later on.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 18 Mar 2012, 22:06

1981

Alan Jones 71 ((5 wins - USW MON NED ITA CPL)
Carlos Reutemann 70 (4 wins - BRA ARG RSM BEL)
Jacques Laffite 62 (4 wins - ESP GER AUT CAN)
John Watson 52 (2 wins - FRA GBR)
Rene Arnoux 28 (3 2nd)
Mario Andretti 23 (3 3rd)
Jean-Pierre Jarier 14 (2 3rd)
Slim Borgudd 11 (1 2nd)
Brian Henton 3 (1 4th)
Keke Rosberg 3 (1 5th)

Jones says "up yours" to his beloved teammate - Reutemann narrlowly missed the main championship and doesn't even win this as consolation! 5 Veterans' titles would have been quite an achievement. Reutemann was 5 points ahead going to Las Vegas - but while Jones won the race, Reutemann could only manage 4th in the Veterans class, he should really have beaten Laffite and Watson which would have won him it. I did expect Laffite and Watson to be closer overall mind you.

There are podiums for reject team Osella and Slim Borgudd of all people - him and Jones were the only finishers at Zandvoort.

Next year there'll be no Jones to defend his title, and Reutemann and Andretti will only make brief appearances, but Niki Lauda will make his Veterans' debut in his comeback as he turns 33 and started back in 1971 anyway. And there's also Keke Rosberg who replaces Jones at Williams......(but you all know what happens to him) ;-)

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 20 Mar 2012, 21:56

1982

John Watson 68 (5 wins - BRA BEL DET CAN CPL)
Niki Lauda 48 (4 wins - USW NED GBR SUI)
Patrick Tambay 39 (1 win - GER, 5 2nd)
Rene Arnoux 35 (2 wins - FRA ITA)
Brian Henton 35 (1 win - MON) !!!!!
Jacques Laffite 23 (1 win - AUT)
Jochen Mass 23 (1 2nd, 3 3rd)
Jean-Pierre Jarier 15 (1 win - RSM)
Slim Borgudd 10 (1 2nd)
Carlos Reutemann 9 (1 win - RSA)
Mario Andretti 4 (1 3rd)

I did an original version of this before eliminating Keke Rosberg and he would have won this by 2 points from Watson, but Watson won this championship as a consolation, and had much superior reliability to his teammate Lauda to result in a surpisingly large points gap. Tambay probably could have won this if he'd the full season in the Ferrari rather than just starting in mid-season, and Arnoux suffered with terrible reliability to finish only a handful of races.

I love how Brian Henton and Jochen Mass go from no points in the main championship to the impressive totals here, and we get a reject driver and team winning a race too, though Henton and Jarier's (for Osella) wins were when they were the only finishers.

This season also marked the retirements of 4-time Veterans' Champion Reutemann and Mario Andreti was unlucky never to win it, of course he would have in 1978 had he not been main champion!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 21 Mar 2012, 21:06

1983

Rene Arnoux 76 (6 wins - CAN GER AUT NED ITA EUR)
Patrick Tambay 64 (4 wins - FRA RSM BEL GBR)
Keke Rosberg 56 (3 wins - MON DET RSA)
John Watson 36 (1 win - USW)
Niki Lauda 31 (1 win - BRA)
Jacques Laffite 27 (1 2nd, 4 3rd)
Jean-Pierre Jarier 19 (3 3rd)
Danny Sullivan 18 (1 2nd, 1 3rd)

This looked like being Tambay's for all the early and mid-season, indeed he lead his teammate by as much as 21 points after Silverstone, but Arnoux won the next 5 races on the trot (even at Brands!!!), against 2 2nds and three retirements for Tambay. Rosberg put up a good fight but couldn't keep up in the later part of the season with no turbo, however he showed he'd still got it by winning the Veterans class in South Africa.

Watson came out on top in his in-house battle with Lauda again even if it was for minor spoils, yet he's out of a drive for 1984!

Interesting how both drivers from 3 top teams (Ferrari, Williams, McLaren) are all included here but nobody from Brabham, Renault or Lotus is.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 22 Mar 2012, 20:52

1984

Rene Arnoux 83.5 (6 wins - BEL RSM MON* CAN GBR EUR)
Patrick Tambay 52 (4 wins - FRA GER NED POR)
Keke Rosberg 37 (2 wins - BRA DAL)
Marc Surer 29 (2 wins - RSA AUT)
Jacques Laffite 21 (1 win - DET)
Manfred Winkelhock 13 (1 2nd)

No classified finishers at Monza (after Lauda eliminated).

Not a great season at all.

Lauda would have had this sealed up by Monza had he managed to lose the main championship, but after he was eliminated, Arnoux was almost the default winner mainly becuase the Ferrari had far better reliability than the Renault and Williams and that was that really.

This season was one of the years that mainly I decided to lower the age limit to 33 for the 80s; it would have just been 4 drivers eligible at 34 (Surer and Winkelhock were both born in 1951).

1985 promises to be better as Nelson Piquet joins to series to battle it out with Rosberg, Lauda and Laffite among others.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 23 Mar 2012, 15:57

1985

Keke Rosberg 70 (6 wins - CAN DET BEL EUR RSA AUS)
Patrick Tambay 48 (2 wins - POR RSM)
Jacques Laffite 47 (3 wins - MON GBR GER)
Nelson Piquet 46 (2 wins - FRA ITA)
Marc Surer 40 (1 win - AUT)
Niki Lauda 21 (1 win - NED)
Piercarlo Ghinzani 10 (1 2nd)
Rene Arnoux 9 (1 win - BRA)
John Watson 6 (1 2nd)
Manfred Winkelhock 4 (2 5th)

Very good season this one. Arnoux started coming off back-to-back Veterans' titles by winning the class in Brazil - then promptly got fired by Ferrari (things like this makes these championships look extremely weird!), then Tambay took the early lead by winning the first two European races, though several drivers kept themselves in it with various good showings and with 3 races to go there was 9 points separating 5 drivers as nobody had made a decisive move.

Rosberg took the lead from Tambay by winning at Brands, then the opposition all gave it to him at Kyalami - first of all Ligier and Renault didn't show up which stopped Laffite and Tambay's chances, and then both Brabhams blew up in the early stages, so Rosberg only had to finish to be champion which he did with ease, so was crowned before going to Adelaide, then he won there too!

Lauda had a stinker of a season only registering 3 finishes, and retired from F1 without winning a Veterans' championship having been DQd from 1984.

However his absence will be more than made up for in 1986 - Nigel Mansell will turn 33, Arnoux will return for a full season with Ligier and Alan Jones also makes a comeback!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 24 Mar 2012, 21:06

1986

Nelson Piquet 87 (89) (7 wins - BRA RSM GER HUN ITA MEX AUS)
Nigel Mansell 84 (90) (6 wins - ESP BEL CAN FRA GBR POR)
Keke Rosberg 40 (1 win - MON)
Rene Arnoux 39 (1 2nd, 6 3rd)
Jacques Laffite 28 (1 win - DET)
Alan Jones 17 (1 win - AUT)
Patrick Tambay 16 (1 2nd, 2 3rd)
Marc Surer 9 (2 3rd)
Piercarlo Ghinzani 2 (1 5th)

Poor old Nigel. Not only did he lose the main title at the last race to Prost, he lost the Veterans' on his debut to his teammate - Mansell would have won without any dropped scores but crucially, Piquet scored 1 more win. Actually Mansell would still have finished behind Piquet even without his puncture, he'd have had to have finished ahead on the road which he wasn't at the time. Bit like 1981, the Williams driver who came closer to the main championship lost this to his teammate!

There were three non-Williams wins when they both hit trouble, including Jones in Austria for (I think) a reject team in Beatrice Lola, indeed it was a 1-2 for them there.

This was to be the last season for former champions Jones and Rosberg, and also runners-up Laffite (who was doing well until his injury at Brands) who came close in 1979, 80 and 81, and Tambay in 1983, 84 and 85- both sadly never won this championship. The 4 drivers who'll replace them in 1987 will be elderly debutant Satoru Nakajima, 33-year olds Derek Warwick and Phillippe Alliot, and 10-years in F1 (and also 33) Riccardo Patrese. But it's looking like Williams will be favourites again.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 26 Mar 2012, 18:17

1987

Nigel Mansell 84 (9 wins - BRA RSM DET FRA GBR AUT ITA ESP MEX)
Satoru Nakajima 63 (4 wins - BEL MON POR JPN)
Riccardo Patrese 40 (2 wins - HUN AUS)
Philippe Alliot 28 (1 win - GER) (!!!!!)
Derek Warwick 27 (3 2nd)
Piercarlo Ghinzani 27 (2 2nd)
Rene Arnoux 24 (2 2nd)

Piquet would have won this easily but was eliminated - he would have had it sealed when Mansell had his qually crash in Japan - after recalculations Mansell was awarded it in his absence as Nakajima was mathematically too far behind. Nakajima even won a race (Belgium) before Piquet's elimination, but after it Alliot got a win in Germany (the only finisher) and Patrese won for Brabham in Hungary before adding Australia subbing for Mansell.

Oh dear for Arnoux - the former double champ came last of all the eligible drivers!!!1

And I have thought of a work around so Prost is out for 1988 - just wait and see. ;-)

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 26 Mar 2012, 19:18

1988 (part 1)

In this season Alain Prost turned 33, and was joined at McLaren by the younger Brazilian Ayrton Senna - and very soon it became clear that their car was absolutely miles quicker than anything else out there, so the pair of them dominated races and at the French Grand Prix, Prost had had 4 wins and 3 2nds (all of which were to his too-young teammate), so needless to say he had easily won 7 Veterans' races without breaking a sweat, as sometimes the McLarens had lapped the whole field.

Prost thought this was making a mockery of the Veterans' championship, especially as he wouldn't be eliminated from it if Senna won the main championship, so after France he asked the organisers to disquaify him from the Veterans, saying "Look, let the guys from the other teams like Lotus, Arrows and Williams fight for this - me and Ayrton are fighting for the main championship and this would be pretty meaningless if I won this by default". It was also likely he'd get more points than Senna due to being more reliable but less wins, so thought it also right to be out if he had a higher total then Senna even if he didn't take the championship home.

This was music to the other drivers' ears, especially Nigel Mansell who had yet to register a finish in 1988, but encouraged, went out and put on a great showing in front of his home crowd and came 2nd overall and Veterans winner (ironically it would have been one of only two races not won by Prost had his results stood!).

After Prost's points had been redistributed, the standings after Silverstone were as follows:

Nelson Piquet 42 (4 wins)
Derek Warwick 37 (2 wins)
Eddie Cheever 22 (2 2nd)
Satoru Nakajima 18 (1 2nd)
Nigel Mansell 9 (1 win)
Riccardo Patrese 9 (1 2nd)
Philippe Streiff 6 (1 3rd)
Philippe Alliot 4 (1 3rd)
Piercarlo Ghinzani 4 (1 5th)
Oscar Larrauri 3 (1 4th)

Rene Arnoux had yet to score - 5 years is really a long time in F1 isn't it???

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 28 Mar 2012, 07:58

Williams were really bad in '88, weren't they...?

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 28 Mar 2012, 08:02

Ferrim wrote:Williams were really bad in '88, weren't they...?

That's what customer Judd engines does to you

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 28 Mar 2012, 11:15

Wizzie wrote:
Ferrim wrote:Williams were really bad in '88, weren't they...?

That's what customer Judd engines does to you

To be fair it was mainly down to terrible reliability rather than just lack of speed - they were more or less always in the chasing pack behind the McLarens. It was only Mexico IIRC where they were blown way but then again so were Benetton who were the best non-turbo team. Other power circuits too like Hockenheim and Monza were bad too but the altitude made it worse in Mexico.

March had customer Judds too and look how good they were at the end of the year.

I'll update the year tonight, I have to double-check the results as it's VERY close (but not really what I wanted to see as it stands).

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 28 Mar 2012, 23:13

1988 (part 2)

In Germany, Piquet knew he had a fight on his hands, he took a big risk and started on slicks in the wet, but crashed out on the first lap, and even worse, Warwick won the class to take the overall lead. Hungary was much better suited to the non-turbo Williams and Patrese won there after Mansell yet again retired from the class lead, and amazingly, Lotus allowed Nakajima to finish in front of Piquet with no other cars between them! But Piquet's 3rd made it all level on 46 points with Warwick.

Then it was back to turbo tracks; Piquet won at Spa with Warwick 2nd, then at Monza, Arrows took the controversial decision after Piquet spun out early and his teammate also hitting trouble, Cheever was allowed to take his first win just in front of Warwick, which in context was madness really! Howver it would also have been cruelty to have taken Cheever's first win away from him. However Warwick did take the win in Estoril and with all other main contenders reiring, only Piquet could catch him, 12 points behind.

The twisty Jerez was much better suited to Williams again and they took a 1-2 there (Mansell registering only his 2nd finish of the year), which restricted Piquet to 3rd which helped out Warwick who retired, but his lead was down to 8 points.

It was staus quo at Suzuka; both championship contenders clashed with Mansell and retired - however both felt a massive missed opportunity - Warwick to close it out and Piquet to close the gap. Piquet had to win at Adelaide and hope Warwick retired. Warwick ran a defensive race but ran out of brakes and had to retire after 52 laps with Piquet in the lead - his only hope rested with both Williams drivers challenging Piquet but they had brake problems; Mansell spun out trying to pass and Patrese ended up backing off to ensure he finished which allowed Piquet the class win - and the championship win by a single point!!!!

Prost meanwhile was happy with the outcome and enjoyed seeing it play out as a neutral observer, in the main championship he'd scored more points overall than Senna, but inevitably the McLaren driver who scored more wins was overall champion, Prost didn't mind being eliminated from the Veterans on the technicality and was pleased the Veterans' Championship had been won in a proper fight - he would have had 14 Veterans' wins if his results had stood!!!!

Final results:

Nelson Piquet 68 (6 wins - BRA RSM CAN FRA BEL AUS)
Derek Warwick 67 (4 wins - MON MEX GER POR)
Riccardo Patrese 43 (2 wins - HUN JPN)
Eddie Cheever 39 (1 win - ITA)
Satoru Nakajima 36 (4 2nd)
Philippe Streiff 21 (1 2nd)
Philippe Alliot 20 (2 3rd)
Nigel Mansell 18 (2 wins - GBR ESP)
Rene Arnoux 9 (1 3rd)
Piercarlo Ghinzani 7 (1 4th)
Oscar Larrauri 5 (1 4th)
Jean-Louis Schlesser 3 (1 4th)

And :lol:

at Streiff and Alliot finishing ahead of Mansell!!!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 28 Mar 2012, 23:18

In conclusion, you could say Cheever not giving up the win in Monza cost Warwick the championship, but if Nakajima had let Piquet through in Hungary too, Piquet would still have won as they would have been tied on points but Piquet having more wins.

No, what really did cost Warwick the championship was Cheever's brief appearance in the sport in 1978; if it wasn't for that he would have been ineligible as he was only 30 and didn't drive full time until 1980 so wouldn't have got in under the 10 year rule. Piquet didn't finish behind Cheever at all, Warwick did at Imola as well and he would have had an extra point to beat Piquet overall even if Lotus had done team orders in Hungary!!!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 29 Mar 2012, 20:52

1989

Riccardo Patrese 77 (7 wins - MEX USA CAN ITA ESP JPN AUS)
Nigel Mansell 54 (6 wins - BRA FRA GBR GER HUN BEL)
Derek Warwick 37 (1 win - RSM)
Nelson Piquet 35 (3 2nd)
Eddie Cheever 33 (3 2nd)
Jonathan Palmer 32 (2 2nd)
Satoru Nakajima 21 (1 2nd, 3 3rd)
Michele Alboreto 19 (1 win - MON)
Rene Arnoux 18 (1 2nd)
Stefan Johansson 17 (1 win - POR)
Philippe Alliot 12 (1 2nd)

As predicted, it's Patrese who takes it as Mansell just can't possibly do it with so many retirements - the more drivers eliminated the less it suits him! They take most of the wins between them but when both of them retired, Warwick and class debutants Alboreto and Johansson (in an Onyx!) win a race e ach. Warwick just beat Piquet - shame he couldn't do that last year!

All eligible drivers score at least one podium.

It was the last seasons for Cheever, Jonathan Palmer who only had a single season eligible, but most significantly doublechampion Arnoux, though he hadn't won a race since being fired from Ferrari after the first race in 1985.

Next year, Prost will join the series (as I can't find any 1988-type technicaility) ;-)

, and also Thierry Boutsen, meaning Ferrari and Williams will have both drivers eligible, and Piquet moves to Benetton in the quest for a third Veterans' title.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 31 Mar 2012, 19:43

1990

Alain Prost 88 (92) (8 wins - BRA MEX FRA GBR GER BEL ITA ESP)
Nelson Piquet 66 (71) (3 wins - CAN JPN AUS)
Thierry Boutsen 56 (3 wins - USA MON HUN)
Riccardo Patrese 46 (1 win - RSM)
Nigel Mansell 45 (1 win - POR, 6 2nd)
Derek Warwick 18 (1 3rd, 4 4th)
Satoru Nakajima 14 (1 3rd, 2 4th)
Philippe Alliot 13 (2 4th)
Michele Alboreto 13 (1 4th, 5 5th)
Andrea De Cesaris 1 (1 6th)
Bruno Giacomelli - big fat zero as he drove for Life.

Prost wins easily but it didn't give him much satisfaction, ideally he'd have been eliminated from this due to winning the main championship but his arch-rival Senna put paid to that at Suzuka.

Due to 5 front-runners being eligible there were no obscure winners and we seemed to have two distinct divisions - the Ferraris, Williams and Piquet's Benetton being division 1, and Warwick winning division 2.

Amazingly Patrese and Mansell only get their real-life wins as wins in the Veterans'!!!

The only debutant for 1991 will be Olivier Grouillard!!!!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 01 Apr 2012, 10:52

1991

Nigel Mansell 84 (8 wins - MON FRA GBR GER HUN ITA ESP AUS*)
Riccardo Patrese 74 (4 wins - BRA MEX POR JPN)
Nelson Piquet 56 (2 wins - CAN BEL, 3 2nd*)
Alain Prost 52 (1 win - USA, 7 2nd)
Thierry Boutsen 30 (1 win - RSM)
Andrea De Cesaris 29.5 (5 3rd)
Satoru Nakajima 19 (1 3rd, 3 4th)
Olivier Grouillard 4 (1 3rd)
Michele Alboreto 3 (2 5th*)

* Half points for Australia of course.

Closer than you might think between the Williams guys - Patrese still mathematically had a chance going to Adelaide, thought at 7 points down once it was going to be half points, he'd had it.

It just shows how Ferrari struggled that year when Prost only wins ONE race even with no McLarens or his younger teammate.

One unlikely winner came at Imola when the Williamses, Prost and Piquet all retired , it was Boutsen in a Ligier, proving he didn't need a Williams to win a race!

Two new entrants for 1992 will be Gerhard Berger in the McLaren who looks likely to challenge, and Martin Brundle becomes eligible just as he moves to a top team (Benetton).

Piquet retired with 2 Veterans' titles and 18 race wins in the series, and also Prost would be absent in 1992 having been fired from Ferrari.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 02 Apr 2012, 18:30

1992

Riccardo Patrese 98 (9 wins - RSA MEX BRA RSM MON FRA GBR BEL JPN)
Gerhard Berger 78 (5 wins - ESP CAN HUN POR AUS)
Martin Brundle 72 (2 wins - GER ITA, 8 2nd)
Michele Alboreto 52 (2 2nd, 7 3rd)
Andrea De Cesaris 27 (1 2nd, 2 3rd)
Thierry Boutsen 24 (1 2nd, 1 3rd)
Olivier Grouillard 9 (2 4th)
Jan Lammers 3 (1 4th)

After Mansell eliminated himself from the reckoning as early as Hungary, it only took his teammate a couple more races to sew up the Veterans title. It only looks close-ish becuase Patrese had two retirements in the last three races against Berger's 2 wins and a 2nd. Brundle nabs a couple of wins when Patrese and Berger hit problems, so no really obscure winners again, however Alboreto had a great season scoring lots of podiums for Footwork (especially when he only scored 3 points in 1991!).

1993 looks really exciting - there'll be no Mansell but Prost makes a return, he is joined at Williams by mature (almost) debutant Damon Hill, also Ayrton Senna turns 33, and Patrese moves to Benetton so there are 4 drivers in top cars (though one of them will most likely be eliminated), though Berger and Brundle will move to weaker teams (Ferrari and Ligier respectively). Derek Warwick and Philippe Alliot also make comebacks.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 05 Apr 2012, 20:49

1993

Ayrton Senna 98 (8 wins - RSA BRA EUR ESP MON GER JPN AUS)
Damon Hill 90 (6 wins - CAN FRA HUN BEL ITA POR)
Riccardo Patrese 46 (1 win - GBR, 4 2nd)
Martin Brundle 45 (1 win - RSM, 1 2nd, 4 3rd)
Gerhard Berger 31 (2 2nd, 4 3rd)
Philippe Alliot 30 (1 2nd, 3 3rd)
Derek Warwick 20 (2 3rd)
Aguri Suzuki 11 (1 3rd)
Andrea De Cesaris 9 (3 4th)
Thierry Boutsen 7 (1 4th)
Michele Alboreto 5 (1 4th)
Toshio Suzuki 3 (1 4th)

What a battle! After 6 races it was Senna 50 to Hill's 18, but a great mid-season for Hill and a bad one for Senna meant Hill squared it all up after Portugal, but two overall wins for Senna in Japan and Oz could not be approached by Hill. Patrese and Brundle win a race each when the two main contenders both retire. And just look how well Alliot does!!!!

(I didn't do a version with Prost in to see when he would have sewn it up but I'm assuming it would have been quite comfortable for him - but it was Portugal when he clinched the main championship, and after that race Senna and Hill were tied so it was still a great contest)!

(Also in brackets - this season was one of the main reasons I decided to stick with 33 throught he 80s and early 90s - if it had been 34 I was hoping Brundle would win but Patrese would have taken it by 2 points).

We won't be seeing several of these faces again though. Prost, Patrese and Warwick all retire at the end of the year, and Boutsen did a few races before the end at his home race. It was Alliot's last season of having an (almost) full-time drive too.

Big changes to take place for 1994, watch this space!!!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 10 Apr 2012, 21:01

1994

The season started by defending Veterans' Champion Ayrton Senna (and probable favourite for the main championship) retiring from the first two races - both the first two races only had two finishers in the class (Hill and Martini in Brazil and Berger and Ratzenberger in Aida).

Tragedy struck at Imola when both Ratzenberger and Senna had fatal crashes - this reduced the Veterans' field by two drivers, and with Michael Schumacher looking a dead-cert for the main championhip, this looked to be a fight between Hill and Berger to win in in honour of their late teammate and friend respectively.

After Brundle took a very popular win in the class in Monaco, Hill asserted his domination in the Veterans' class - he rolled off win after win and was only beaten in Germany by Berger after he suffered damage on the first lap. So much so Hill had the Veterans' Championship confirmed after Monza (in front of the Tifosi!), but Berger's hope was the Hill could challenge Schumacher for the main championship and therefore be eliminated - Berger himself had a decent lead over Brundle and surpringly Martini in the very reliable Minardi!!!

Berger was rooting for Hill in Adeliade but after Schumacher collided with Hill and rendered Hill's car too damaged to continue, Berger was depressed by this and even ended up losing the class win to comeback kid Nigel Mansell!! Berger was gutted - he had planned to dedicate it not only to Senna but his countryman Ratzenberger too.

(Also Minardi fans had reason to curse too - if Hill had been eliminated they would have had 4 wins!!!!!!).

Martini did have the consolation of beating a McLaren though

Due to the reduction in the field (there were only 5 regulars in the 1994 field - Hill, Berger, Brundle, Martini and Alboreto who was to retire at the end of the year), one of the rule changes to be announced was the reduction of the minimum age to 32 for the 1995 season - 1994 was not affected by this as there were no participating drivers born in 1962.

Andrea De Cesaris also retired, also having been unlucky enough not wo win a race - he sadly happened to be around at a time where there lots of top drivers eligible in better cars!

Final standings:

Damon Hill 126 (12 wins - BRA RSM ESP CAN FRA GBR HUN BEL ITA POR EUR JPN)
Gerhard Berger 59 (2 wins - PAC GER)
Pierluigi Martini 42 (4 2nd, 3 3rd)
Martin Brundle 40 (1 win - MON, 3 2nd, 3 3rd)
Michele Alboreto 21 (3 3rd)
Nigel Mansell 16 (1 win - AUS)
Andrea De Cesaris 7 (1 3rd)
Roland Ratzenberger 6 (1 2nd)
Yannick Dalmas 2 (1 5th)

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 10 Apr 2012, 21:33

I am happy to see that Roland had a podium in this in his tragically short F1 career.

Have you worked out how this might have looked if Damon had won the title (all other results being the same - Schumacher was not eligible for this anyway, was he?)? I assume that Roland may have won Aida?!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 10 Apr 2012, 21:59

dr-baker wrote:I am happy to see that Roland had a podium in this in his tragically short F1 career.

Have you worked out how this might have looked if Damon had won the title (all other results being the same - Schumacher was not eligible for this anyway, was he?)? I assume that Roland may have won Aida?!

No it would still have been Berger winning Aida - he was 2nd to Schumacher in real life. I worked out if Hill had been eliminated, Berger would have won this championship but would have taken until Adelaide to clinch it from MARTINI!!!!!

BTW 1995 is GREAT for rejects fans but I'll let you know the results tomorrow. ;-)

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 11 Apr 2012, 23:18

1995

The year started out with Hill looking the obvious favourite and Berger his closest challenger - there was really only other car likely to near them and that was the Ligier seat which was being shared by Brundle and Suzuki - everyone else really was a tail-ender. Nigel Mansell was supposed to be making a ful-time comeback for McLaren but the less said about that the better - after scoring a 3rd at Imola, he retired a supposedly healthy car in Spain and he was out of F1, having had a very successful Veterans' campaign. He was replaced by Mark Blundell who was too young to qualify for this so that was one less car.

The first 5 races went true to form, Hill winning 3 and Berger 2, but after Monaco Berger led Hill 38-36 by dint of having 5 finishes.

The first unlikely winner would come in Canada. Berger was leading until he had refuelling problems, this dropped him behind both Hill and Brundle. Hill's car then broke down so Brundle was battling Berger for the race win; they collided in the latter stages but had completed enough laps to be classified, so anyone eligible still running was there to pick up the pieces - and that someone was.................TAKI INOUE in the Footwork, who won the race as he was the only other runner left - though Brundle did classify 2nd and Berger 3rd.

After Hill won the class in France which put him and Berger level again (Brundle doing his countryman a favour by finishing in front of Berger), there was another upset at Silverstone. Berger and Brunlde went out early, Hill crashed out in the later stages in a desperate bid to get the overall race win, so the leading runner was Pierluigi Martini in the Minardi, who scored an emotional first win after just missing out in 1994 - particularly poignant as he was about to lose his seat to the younger Pedro Lamy - but this was a great send-off. Also Bertrand Gachot in the Pacific was 2nd!!!

Germany went to Berger, then Hungary and Belgium to Hill, and with Berger retiring at Spa, Hill finally took the championship lead. From there he was never to be challenged for the title as the Ferrari's speed and reliability both went down the pan in the last third of the season, Berger would only register 2 more finishes in Portugal and Aida and both were behind Hill anyway, so Hill was confirmed Veterans' champion after Berger's early retirement at Suzuka.

There were three more very quirky races in the closing stages of the season though.

Monza was surpringly like Silverstone; Brundle reired early with a puncture which damaged his car; Berger's suspension was broken by his teammate's on-board camera hitting his car - and controversially, Hill ran Schumacher up the rear, and so the race win ironically was picked up by Inoue yet again, as he'd been in the way when Hill and Schumacher were lapping him. Was that a deliberate ploy to take Hill out and reduce the field? ;-)

At the Nurburgring, Berger and Hill retired again, Brundle picked up the win but joining him on the podium were two drivers having one-off appearances; Gabriele Tarquini subbing for Katayama (who was also eligible) was 2nd, and in the Pacific coming 3rd was....drumroll...........JEAN DENIS DELETRAZ!!!!! (and to answer Murray Walker's quote "What IS Deletraz doing" - the answer was going as slowly as possible to ensure he finishes and pick up a Veterans' podium). ;-)

And we weren't finished yet - Aguri Suzuki got the Ligier seat back for the two Japanese races but crashed and was injured in qually at Suzuka, so retired from F1. After Hill and Berger retired, guess who was there again at the end to pick up the win in his home race? Yes Inoue won for a THIRD time!!!!

Then if only Hill had retired in Oz then Pacific would have had a win with Gachot.......and also sadly Moreno just missed scoring Forti a podium.

Final standings:

Damon Hill 96 (9 wins - ARG RSM MON FRA HUN BEL POR PAC AUS)
Gerhard Berger 74 (3 wins - BRA ESP GER, 6 2nd)
Taki Inoue 37 (3 wins - CAN ITA JPN)
Martin Brundle 36 (1 win - EUR, 3 2nd)
Pierluigi Martini 22 (1 win - GBR)
Ukyo Katayama 18 (1 2nd)
Aguri Suzuki 15 (2 2nd)
Bertrand Gachot 12 (2 2nd)
Roberto Moreno 12 (3 4th)
Gabriele Tarquini 6 (1 2nd)
Nigel Mansell 4 (1 3rd)
Jean-Denis Deletraz 4 (1 3rd)

I told you it was good.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 13 Apr 2012, 20:34

Seriously, nobody was impressed with Taki Inoue winning THREE races? ;-)

Anyway on we go:

1996

Jean Alesi 106 (10 wins - BRA ARG ESP CAN FRA GER HUN BEL ITA POR)
Gerhard Berger 66 (4 wins - AUS RSM GBR JPN)
Martin Brundle 51 (1 win - EUR, 5 2nd)
Johnny Herbert 42 (1 win - MON, 2 2nd, 5 3rd)
Ukyo Katayama 27 (3 2nd)
Giovanni Lavaggi 5 ( 1 3rd)
Andrea Montermini 4 (1 3rd)

No Damon Hill this year of course. ;-)

Unlike the previous two years, I'm not going to write an essay - it was very much an in-house battle at Benetton but Alesi just had the better of the reliability really. Weird becuase I always considered Benetton a young drivers team. ;-)

Brundle and Herbert win a race each when Benetton mess up. Brundle retires with 6 Veterans' wins but no championships.

Nice reject podiums for Johnny Carwash and Montermini - that completes the trinity of mid 90s rejects teams all getting at least one podium. ;-)

But this is why I had to reduce the eligible age by a year -without it Inoue wouldn't have been in 1995, and there's have only been THREE regulars (Berger, Brundle and Katayama) in 1996. Reducing it allowed Alesi and Herbert in!!!!

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 13 Apr 2012, 21:38

James1978 wrote:Seriously, nobody was impressed with Taki Inoue winning THREE races?

There are no words for this

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 13 Apr 2012, 22:18

James1978 wrote:Seriously, nobody was impressed with Taki Inoue winning THREE races?

Maybe being just 32 didn't make it as impressive...

Shadaza · Post by **Shadaza** » 13 Apr 2012, 22:19

James1978 wrote:Seriously, nobody was impressed with Taki Inoue winning THREE races?

Frankly I am still in shock

KUTGW

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 14 Apr 2012, 21:37

Thanks guys. ;-)

No such obscure winners in this next one though:

1997

Jean Alesi 91 (5 wins - ESP CAN GBR ITA LUX)
Gerhard Berger 83 (4 wins - AUS BRA GER EUR)
Eddie Irvine 71 (5 wins - ARG RSM MON FRA JPN)
Johnny Herbert 60 (1 win - BEL, 5 2nd, 5 3rd)
Damon Hill 44 (2 wins - HUN AUT)
Ukyo Katayama 18 (1 3rd)
Nicola Larini 13 (1 2nd)

Much closer between the Benetton guys than in 1996; Berger really had cause to regret the three races he missed. Irvine simply had too many DNFs to challenge for it even though he had the car to do so.

As Arrows had previously won races and come very close to the championship in 1988, Hill couldn't do anything historic for them sadly.

Katayama and Larini retire after this year; sadly Katayama couldn't win a race but could have in 1996 if the age limit hadn't been reduced, but sadly they had to because fields are small these days.

But the main retirement was Berger; unfortuntely he couldn't win one of these as he always up against tough opposition; Patrese in the superior Williams in 1992, the less said about the 1993 Ferrari the better; Hill was his nemesis after that and then it was his beloved teammate Alesi!!!!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 18 Apr 2012, 19:34

Two in quick succession:

1998

Eddie Irvine 126 (12 wins, 1 2nd)
Damon Hill 68 (3 wins - GER HUN BEL, 3 2nd, 5 3rd)
Jean Alesi 63 (8 2nd, 3 3rd)
Johnny Herbert 41 (1 win - ESP, 2 2nd, 4 3rd)
Olivier Panis 27 (1 3rd, 7 4th)

YAWN!!

Didn't even list Irvine's wins, it's all the ones not stated.

Only Panis was 32 here so eliminating him would have made no difference as he was usually last of the runners anyway!

It did take until Suzuka for all 5 eligible drivers to finish though, and they finished in the same order as in the championship.

1999

Eddie Irvine 128 (10 wins - AUS MON ESP CAN GBR AUT GER HUN MAL JPN)
Heinz-Harald Frentzen 87 (4 wins - BRA FRA BEL ITA, 6 2nd)
Johnny Herbert 34 (1 win - EUR, 2 2nd)
Damon Hill 33 (1 win - RSM, 1 2nd, 4 3rd)
Mika Salo 27 (2 2nd, 2 3rd)
Olivier Panis 25 (4 3rd)
Jean Alesi 18 (1 2nd, 1 3rd)
Alessandro Zanardi 16 (1 3rd)

A few more drivers eligible here, but still very comfortable for Irvine. Did Salo REALLY need to give him that win in Germany?

This was Hill's last season, he signs off with 2 Veterans Championships, having eligible for every full year of his career apart from his main championship in 1996. He won at least one race every Veterans' Championship too!

(BTW if Irvine had won the main championship then nothing wonderful would have happened as Frentzen would have got most of his wins. We needed that AND the age limit still 33 which would have eliminated Frentzen and Salo too to have made things interesting!).

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 19 Apr 2012, 21:06

And another boring one!

2000

MIka Hakkinen 134 (13 wins)
Mika Salo 57 (6 2nd, 3 3rd)
Eddie Irvine 54 (1 win, 3 2nd, 4 3rd)
Heinz-Harald Frentzen 47 (2 wins, 4 2nd)
Johnny Herbert 33 (1 2nd, 4 3rd)
Jean Alesi 19 (1 2nd, 2 3rd)

Basically apart from Monaco when he was delayed, Hakkinen won whenever he finished. Irvine won Monaco, Frentzen in Brazil and USA when Hakkinen retired, and unbelievably only Salo finished in Australia and was then DSQd!!!

Salo's gotta be the unluckiest driver in this, still to get a win - and also I worked out he'd have won this chmapionship had his namesake won the real championship (or the lower age limit stayed 33)!

Herbert retired with only 4 wins, I always thought he'd have got more!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 19 Apr 2012, 21:54

2001

Mika Hakkinen 92 (8 wins - RSM CAN EUR GBR HUN BEL USA JPN)
Jean Alesi 84 (2 wins - GER ITA, 5 2nd, 7 3rd)
Olivier Panis 67 (3 wins - BRA ESP AUT, 4 2nd)
Heinz-Harald Frentzen 59 (3 wins - AUS MAL FRA)
Eddie Irvine 35 (1 win - MON, 3 2nd)

A certain German driver in a Ferrari would have become eligible this year but we won't be seeing any of him for a few years yet!

Much better than the 2000 season - 4 different drivers led the standings due to Hakkinen's poorer performance.

First of all it was Frentzen with wins in the first two races, then Panis took over with three early-mid season wins, then Alesi and Hakkinen fought it out, but Alesi's superior reliability keeping him in it compared to hakkinen who was either winning or retiring. Alesi was SO close to causing a major upset, he was ahead going to Suzuka but by only 2 points so he knew Hakkinen had to retire or the game was up.....and Alesi himself had to retire early when he was taken out by the younger Finn spinning off!!!!

Alesi signed off from F1 with the 1996 and 97 Veterans titles but 2001 had seen him win his first races since 1997, and he had one for Prost AND Jordan! Hakkinen did the same with an 100% record in the Veterans!

2002 looks VERY interesting - with Hakkinen and Alesi retiring from F1 and Schumacher dominant so getting eliminated, the favorites look to be Irvine in the Jaguar, Panis in the BAR, Frentzen seems unlikely to do much in the Arrows, and new team Toyota will have the returning Salo looking for his first win, and elderly debutant Allan McNish!!!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 20 Apr 2012, 19:59

2002

Mika Salo 75 (4 wins - BRA AUT GER JPN)
Eddie Irvine 58 (4 wins - AUS BEL ITA USA)
Olivier Panis 55 (4 wins - CAN EUR GBR HUN)
Allan McNish 48 (2 wins - MAL FRA)
Heinz-Harald Frentzen 46 (2 wins - ESP MON)

No finishers at Imola.

Unlike some of the recent ones, this was a great year!

Salo more than makes up for his bad luck in 99 and 00, he basically had more finishes than anyone esle who were of similar competiveness. Great for Toyota in their first year in F1 too, and Allan McNish even got a win in their 2nd race!

A late season charge from Irvine was to no avail, and even Frentzen in the Arrows was leading this at the time the proverbial sh*t hit the fan at the team - his 42 points after the Nurburgring stood him in good stead, sadly the team's problems stopped him in his tracks, he got a 3rd at Indianapolis for Sauber.

This was Irvine's last season, he had a great record in this championship - 2 championships in 1998 and 99, and 33 race wins!

Next year three big names will join - Rubens Barrichello having debuted in 1993, and also David Coulthard and Jacques Villeneuve who turn 32.

FantometteBR · Post by **FantometteBR** » 21 Apr 2012, 04:22

I can predict Barrichello and DC might have the fight of their lives in the ending years of 'Schumacher' era

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 21 Apr 2012, 14:04

Nah, Coulthard wasn't that competitive in 2003 and 2004, plus his car was unreliable. I bet on Rubens for 2003 and 2004.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 21 Apr 2012, 15:43

2003

Rubens Barrichello 106 (9 wins - MAL RSM ESP AUT CAN EUR GBR ITA JPN)
David Coulthard 98 (6 wins - AUS BRA MON FRA GER HUN)
Heinz-Harald Frentzen 61 (1 win - USA, 4 2nd)
Olivier Panis 45 (2 2nd, 4 3rd)
Jacques Villeneuve 43 (1 2nd, 5 3rd)

Closer than I (and I suspect most people) thought between Zippy and Brickhead - so much so that if the Ferrari had broken down from the lead in Japan then he'd have lost the championship.

Only Frentzen managed to win a race when both the favourites retired. And Jacques Villeneuve well and truly sucked a**e. :lol:

Frentzen retired from F1 with 12 Veterans' wins to his name.

2004 looks a bad prospect - Villeneuve doesn't have a seat either so it's going to be just 3 regulars I'm afraid!!! (If only Jos Verstappen had still had a drive he'd have joined).

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 26 Apr 2012, 19:09

2004

Rubens Barrichello 168 (16 wins!!!!!)
David Coulthard 108 (1 win - GER, 10 2nd, 3 3rd)
Olivier Panis 89 (6 2nd, 6 3rd)
Jacques Villeneuve 24 (1 win - JPN)

BORING!!!!!! (Apart from lower the age limit yet again I don't really know I could have done there though).

Only finishing behind Coulthard in Germany and a retirement (ironically a collision with DC) at Suzuka stopped Rubens from getting a perfect score.

Due to bulletproof reliability, Panis fails to win a race in his final season. Villeneuve gets a comeback win at Suzuka.

2005 promises to be better - Michael Schumacher will FINALLY join the series as he stops dominating the main championship to join his beloved teammate. Villeneuve does a full year with Sauber, and also Fisichella in the number 2 Renault will turn 32. Coulthard will also sign for new team red Bull.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 30 Apr 2012, 21:06

2005 (after Canadian GP)

David Coulthard 52 (1 win - MAL)
Rubens Barrichello 46 (1 win - EUR)
Michael Schumacher 44 (3 wins - RSM MON CAN)
Jacques Villeneuve 33 (1 2nd)
Giancarlo Fisichella 30 (2 wins - AUS ESP)
Pedro De La Rosa 10 (1 win - BRN)

Here's a taster for you - unbelievably David Coulthard driving the (then) unfancied new team Red Bull having had a great start to the season - though of course you can never count out Ferrari, their drivers have been taking points off each other, including a cheeky move by Schumacher in Monaco to snatch the class win from long-suffering Rubens. Fisichella suprisingly due to only finishing 4 races is last regular runner, especially as his teammate Alonso is running way with the main championship, and a cameo appearance by De La Rosa to win the class in Bahrain could have taken crucila points of Coulthard and Barrichello.

Rest of the season to come!

pasta_maldonado · Post by **pasta_maldonado** » 02 May 2012, 16:52

James1978 wrote:Jean-Denis Deletraz 4 (1 3rd)

A bit of a BUMP, but I think I may have just worked out what Deletraz was doing

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 02 May 2012, 19:25

2005 always seems to provide interesting alternative championships!

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 03 May 2012, 11:52

Sorry for the slow update - I've lost internet at home (I'm posting off my work computer now!), but I can spoil that 2005 is a 3-way battle going to the last round.

2005 was rubbish in Champion Elimination though - Alonso was still in for that one. ;-)