A Legend's end is near?

[JJMonty]

(Hopefully, I have got the thread correct this time, however if I haven't, please feel free to mock my noobishness and move to the correct thread! )


I was reading through all of the motorsport news and stumbled across this! http://www.racedepartment.com/2012/07/ring-bankruptcy/

This brings up two questions that I can think of...

1) The legend that is the Nordschlife will be gone! Realistically, what will happen to the venue? Will it just be demolished?

2) Alternating German GP's will be gone, however with the Financial state of Hockenheim meaning that they cannot afford to host the race every year, will that mean the German GP will be off the calander soon?

[Aerospeed]

If the Nurburgring does go bankrupt Hockenheim will alternate with Spa, another fledgling circuit. Bernie can now add another exotic race to the calendar.

I love European Politicians. [/sarcasm]

[FantometteBR]

No chance of Lausitz to become F1-prone, huh?

[Aerospeed]

In regards to my previous post, I think there might be a conspiracy theory that Bernie could be ringing up some ponzi scheme or something like that causing the Nurburgring to go bankrupt, which in return frees up a space on a calendar that can be used to put another oil-rich country on the calendar.

But that's my warped and somewhat-biased mind at work. How did the owners of the nurburgring get to their dire situation anyways?

[Londoner]

There's a massive market for F1 in Germany, thanks to the success of Schumacher and Vettel. Bernie would have to take madness to a whole new level if he wanted to remove the German Grand Prix from the calendar.

That said, this is Bernie Ecclestone we're talking about. A man who spent the last decade and a half acting like a complete James Allen threatening, and indeed trying to get rid of the British Grand Prix, despite the massive F1 fanbase in the UK, over half of the teams being based here and the success of Hill, Coulthard, Hamilton and Button.

I don't think the Nordschifie will disappear. I imagine it must be protected in the same way that several historic buildings in the UK have 'listed' status.

[JJMonty]

I am not sure how the circuit has got itself into such a problem, though I'm assuming it will be the same as Hockenheim... i.e. Development work and maintanence costs rocketing up and so the circuit's profits have become less and less.

@ East Londoner - I thought the point of the news article was that they would recieve no more Government backing? Normally if an area has been protected by the Government, they also invest in it? (Or does Germany have a different way of "protecting" their buildings/sites?)

[mario]

In regards to my previous post, I think there might be a conspiracy theory that Bernie could be ringing up some ponzi scheme or something like that causing the Nurburgring to go bankrupt, which in return frees up a space on a calendar that can be used to put another oil-rich country on the calendar.

But that's my warped and somewhat-biased mind at work. How did the owners of the nurburgring get to their dire situation anyways?

As if often said, do not ascribe to malice what can be explained through incompetence - and Nurburgring Automotive GmbH, the private company that was running the track, were utterly incompetent...

I am not sure how the circuit has got itself into such a problem, though I'm assuming it will be the same as Hockenheim... i.e. Development work and maintanence costs rocketing up and so the circuit's profits have become less and less.

@ East Londoner - I thought the point of the news article was that they would recieve no more Government backing? Normally if an area has been protected by the Government, they also invest in it? (Or does Germany have a different way of "protecting" their buildings/sites?)

I believe that part of the problem was that the private company that had the licence to operate the track, Nurburgring Automotive GmbH, has basically spent itself into oblivion with a series of badly misjudged investment plans, most of which have brought in little or no money at all (private facilities like hotels etc. aimed at the automotive manufacturers testing at the Nurburgring, for example, which have been shut most of the time due to a lack of demand).
I think that, as things stand, the regional government would remain in control of the venue but would be left taking a large financial hit for Nurburgring Automotive GmbH's losses (since most of the debt that Nurburgring Automotive GmbH owes is to the regional government in the form of licence fees that were never paid).

[AndreaModa]

If they find a buyer, I suspect little will change, and the circuit will remain open.

Sums up the idiocy of the European Union though doesn't it? I'm not going to deny the fact that I'm a Euro-sceptic, but they don't help themselves do they? I can't wait for the day when the UK leaves the EU, because it'll save us from having so many retarded regulations being forced down our throats, like this one here.

[Salamander]

If they find a buyer, I suspect little will change, and the circuit will remain open.

Sums up the idiocy of the European Union though doesn't it? I'm not going to deny the fact that I'm a Euro-sceptic, but they don't help themselves do they? I can't wait for the day when the UK leaves the EU, because it'll save us from having so many retarded regulations being forced down our throats, like this one here.

I'd rather put up with the EU and mind-boggling idiocies like this than leave things to our politicans. We're probably right up there with the US for stupid politicans per capita.

[Londoner]

Various reports on Twitter suggest that the complex has officially been declared bankrupt. The EU can get bathplugged.

[DemocalypseNow]

If they find a buyer, I suspect little will change, and the circuit will remain open.

Sums up the idiocy of the European Union though doesn't it? I'm not going to deny the fact that I'm a Euro-sceptic, but they don't help themselves do they? I can't wait for the day when the UK leaves the EU, because it'll save us from having so many retarded regulations being forced down our throats, like this one here.

Well, I have to defend the EU here, and say that if we leave the EU, my entire life will be destroyed in one foul swoop. My job depends on us being in the EU. My relationship depends on us being the EU. The entire Agriculture sector, which is struggling as it is, will die without the EU. From the outside looking in, you can't really see the benefit of the EU, but having been on the inside and seeing it at work, despite some flaws in the rules they impose, overall, we need to be part of this. If an EU referendum does happen, I will throw everything I have at the Yes to EU campaign. I can't afford for us to leave, I just can't.

[RonDenisDeletraz]

If they find a buyer, I suspect little will change, and the circuit will remain open.

Sums up the idiocy of the European Union though doesn't it? I'm not going to deny the fact that I'm a Euro-sceptic, but they don't help themselves do they? I can't wait for the day when the UK leaves the EU, because it'll save us from having so many retarded regulations being forced down our throats, like this one here.

Well, I have to defend the EU here, and say that if we leave the EU, my entire life will be destroyed in one foul swoop. My job depends on us being in the EU. My relationship depends on us being the EU. The entire Agriculture sector, which is struggling as it is, will die without the EU. From the outside looking in, you can't really see the benefit of the EU, but having been on the inside and seeing it at work, despite some flaws in the rules they impose, overall, we need to be part of this. If an EU referendum does happen, I will throw everything I have at the Yes to EU campaign. I can't afford for us to leave, I just can't.

How on earth does that work.

[DemocalypseNow]

If they find a buyer, I suspect little will change, and the circuit will remain open.

Sums up the idiocy of the European Union though doesn't it? I'm not going to deny the fact that I'm a Euro-sceptic, but they don't help themselves do they? I can't wait for the day when the UK leaves the EU, because it'll save us from having so many retarded regulations being forced down our throats, like this one here.

Well, I have to defend the EU here, and say that if we leave the EU, my entire life will be destroyed in one foul swoop. My job depends on us being in the EU. My relationship depends on us being the EU. The entire Agriculture sector, which is struggling as it is, will die without the EU. From the outside looking in, you can't really see the benefit of the EU, but having been on the inside and seeing it at work, despite some flaws in the rules they impose, overall, we need to be part of this. If an EU referendum does happen, I will throw everything I have at the Yes to EU campaign. I can't afford for us to leave, I just can't.

How on earth does that work.

My girlfriend is Brazilian with a Portuguese passport. No EEC = no right to stay in UK regardless of employment status.

[Myrvold]

(Hopefully, I have got the thread correct this time, however if I haven't, please feel free to mock my noobishness and move to the correct thread! )


I was reading through all of the motorsport news and stumbled across this! http://www.racedepartment.com/2012/07/ring-bankruptcy/

This brings up two questions that I can think of...

1) The legend that is the Nordschlife will be gone! Realistically, what will happen to the venue? Will it just be demolished?

2) Alternating German GP's will be gone, however with the Financial state of Hockenheim meaning that they cannot afford to host the race every year, will that mean the German GP will be off the calander soon?

Hang on! Racedepartment! THat was a nice surprise!

[Ferrarist]

It's irritating to see how you all fall for Kurt Beck's (Prime Minister of Rhineland-Palatine, where the Nürburgring is located) bullshit here. Not the EU is to blame, Beck himself is. He acted like a megalomaniac here in trying to transform the Nürburgring into an amusement park, yet he thought that some private investor would be stupid enough to finance that kind of thing. In fact, his financial minister even did deals with schemers (I think it was even Bernie Madoff, but I can't verify that in the moment.).

But I really doubt that the track will be demolished. Perhaps that stupid ring*boulevard, but that's for the better.

[pasta_maldonado]

If the Ring dies, it will be one of the saddest days in motorsports.

[AndreaModa]

If they find a buyer, I suspect little will change, and the circuit will remain open.

Sums up the idiocy of the European Union though doesn't it? I'm not going to deny the fact that I'm a Euro-sceptic, but they don't help themselves do they? I can't wait for the day when the UK leaves the EU, because it'll save us from having so many retarded regulations being forced down our throats, like this one here.

Well, I have to defend the EU here, and say that if we leave the EU, my entire life will be destroyed in one foul swoop. My job depends on us being in the EU. My relationship depends on us being the EU. The entire Agriculture sector, which is struggling as it is, will die without the EU. From the outside looking in, you can't really see the benefit of the EU, but having been on the inside and seeing it at work, despite some flaws in the rules they impose, overall, we need to be part of this. If an EU referendum does happen, I will throw everything I have at the Yes to EU campaign. I can't afford for us to leave, I just can't.

Ah yes, I'm fully aware of the support the agriculture sector receives from the EU. It was after all, what one of my final year modules was entirely focused on. I can't argue with the fact that the CAP, it's de-coupled payments and the Stewardship schemes are what keeps most British farms afloat. It is a very attractive incentive, and is probably one of the only reasons France really cares about the EU. But aside from this one policy, and perhaps the advantages of being able to fight as a unified collective in world trade agreements, there isn't much attractive about the EU at all. There are factors in my everyday life that are being determined by unelected politicians from different countries to that of myself. The system of governance within the EU is fundamentally flawed, and leaving would save this country billions of pounds every year, and actually allow our own elected politicians to do their jobs again. Maybe a case could be made for a reform of the European Parliament, but ultimately I don't like being told what to do by someone who's never even visited my own country. We can already see that those unelected fools can't even manage a single currency correctly, Gordon Brown's stock has risen immeasurably since all that has come out, because he overruled Blair and kept us out of the Euro. That was probably the single best decision made by a politician in the UK in the past decade. Therefore, if a case can be made for us to stay out of monetary union, which it unequivocally can now, then the same questions can be asked of political union too.

I appreciate that should Britain leave the EU in the future, and there will be a referendum on it in the near future no doubt, then it would cause all sorts of personal problems with people such as yourself Kostas as you've pointed out. But you can't let factors like that cloud your judgement of the bigger picture. I think we will leave the EU eventually, but I'm not sure if Scottish independence will come first, in which case I'd strongly suspect them to remain in the EU for greater bargaining power on the world stage. There are a lot of big decisions coming up in the near future for British citizens, and it's an interesting time to be living in.

Anyway...apologies for that everyone else, especially those not in Europe! If, as Ferrarist suggests that it's not EU legislation that is at fault in all of this then it is yet another example of over-eager speculation that has led to financial ruin. Where have we heard that before?

[CoopsII]

You'll have to forgive me as Ive had a knee op this morning and the meds have sent me a bit bleury (you may not actually notice anything different) but which Nürburgring are we talking about? The current F1 circuit or the old one that appears to be used by tourists and Top Gear?

If its the former then that would be a shame as Ive grown to love the newer track, if its the latter then 'meh, thats life'.

Also, I watched Aliens Vs Predator this afternoon after the operation and the drugs didnt help that film at all.

[DemocalypseNow]

Well, I have to disagree with most of what you said AndreaModa, but I won't issue a counterargument as no doubt Phoenix will show up and tell us to shut up about politics!

[F1000X]

If they find a buyer, I suspect little will change, and the circuit will remain open.

Sums up the idiocy of the European Union though doesn't it? I'm not going to deny the fact that I'm a Euro-sceptic, but they don't help themselves do they? I can't wait for the day when the UK leaves the EU, because it'll save us from having so many retarded regulations being forced down our throats, like this one here.

I'd rather put up with the EU and mind-boggling idiocies like this than leave things to our politicans. We're probably right up there with the US for stupid politicans per capita.

Trust me man, you don't even come close. It's that bad.

[AndreaModa]

Well, I have to disagree with most of what you said AndreaModa, but I won't issue a counterargument as no doubt Phoenix will show up and tell us to shut up about politics!

Haha, I'm sorry man! I guess our differences on politics, etc are already well known on the forum as it is! We'll leave it there shall we?

[DemocalypseNow]

Well, I have to disagree with most of what you said AndreaModa, but I won't issue a counterargument as no doubt Phoenix will show up and tell us to shut up about politics!

Haha, I'm sorry man! I guess our differences on politics, etc are already well known on the forum as it is! We'll leave it there shall we?

Indeed. Much like the divide within Glasgow, one half is blue and one half is green. And look what happened to the blue side

[WeirdKerr]

Well, I have to disagree with most of what you said AndreaModa, but I won't issue a counterargument as no doubt Phoenix will show up and tell us to shut up about politics!

Haha, I'm sorry man! I guess our differences on politics, etc are already well known on the forum as it is! We'll leave it there shall we?

Indeed. Much like the divide within Glasgow, one half is blue and one half is green. And look what happened to the blue side

People forget about the 3rd team in Glasgow who play in red and yellow

[SeedStriker]

You'll have to forgive me as Ive had a knee op this morning and the meds have sent me a bit bleury (you may not actually notice anything different) but which Nürburgring are we talking about? The current F1 circuit or the old one that appears to be used by tourists and Top Gear?

If its the former then that would be a shame as Ive grown to love the newer track, if its the latter then 'meh, thats life'.

Also, I watched Aliens Vs Predator this afternoon after the operation and the drugs didnt help that film at all.

Let me remind you that the Nordeschliffe and the GP track are connected and used in the mytical 24 Hours of Nurburgring, one can't exist without the other. Losing the Nurburgring would be a tragedy, since it's not only a good venue for F1, but also for the tourists and testers that wants to challenge the Green Hell.

andohbytheway, not even drugs can help AvsP movie.

[Nuppiz]

EU won't allow the track to get any money, because they're too busy giving it to Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Spain - who were also ridiculously incompentent at managing their economy. Soon to be followed by Italy. Now I'll just grab my coat and run the hell out before I get beaten to death.

But, if the track's management really made idiotic decisions and overspent their resources, I don't think giving it a lot of government support would be a wise idea. A shame that a legendary track like this has to suffer this kind of fate, and because most European tracks are already struggling so that no-one can fill in for Nurby, I guess this means yet another GP in some rich country no-one has ever even heard of before.

[Klon]

I personally wouldn't bet on the German Grand Prix breaking down if Nürburgring should meet the worst possible fate. There is always the possibility of yet another street course. Also, do not forget the EuroSpeedway. While Ecclestone doesn't like the place since as far as flair goes it's pretty much Magny-Cours with worse accents it is not in any trouble as far as I know and actually offered themselves as a venue for Formula Elaborate Bluff, it is a reasonable option. The track does not need any major upgrades and German gouvernments are still surprisingly big on giving Eastern Germany something to work with.

And as far as this EU thing goes - I am occasionally considering changing my nationality to "Earth" ... that would solve most problems and would allow us to use the time and funds wasted for the nationalistic disease that is poisoning the human brain for developing space-faring programs which really are the only hope of survival our species has in the evolutionary short- and mid-term.

[Nessafox]

as already mentioned, i fear that alternating between hockenheim and francorchamps is the 'interesting future plans' that the francorchamps-owners were talking about...

Oh god, a German GP in Belgium, a nightmare coming true

In fact, there's been some sort of precedent, with the Zandvoort Masters being held in Zolder once...

[F1000X]

I personally wouldn't bet on the German Grand Prix breaking down if Nürburgring should meet the worst possible fate. There is always the possibility of yet another street course.

HELL NO. All those great tracks in Germany and they can't find one to use?

EuroSpeedway.

Yeahhhhhhh buddy. I don't get the opportunity to watch many televised races from this track, seeing as I'm in the states, but it really seems like a well put together venue. Fun as hell to drive in TOCA 3 too. Doesn't this already have an FIA grade 1 or 1T rating?

And as far as this EU thing goes - I am occasionally considering changing my nationality to "Earth" ... that would solve most problems and would allow us to use the time and funds wasted for the nationalistic disease that is poisoning the human brain for developing space-faring programs which really are the only hope of survival our species has in the evolutionary short- and mid-term.

I'm sold.

[dinizintheoven]

People forget about the 3rd team in Glasgow who play in red and yellow

Partick Thistle, I assume, who have just been unwittingly promoted to the second spot. And what about Clyde... does this make Rangers Glasgow's fourth team, now?

I'll stop before everyone thinks I'm joining the football bandwagon. Or, rather, I'll throw in the names of Atletico Partick, Borussia Bishopbriggs, Sporting Club of Gartcosh and the like before I do...

[DemocalypseNow]

People forget about the 3rd team in Glasgow who play in red and yellow

Partick Thistle, I assume, who have just been unwittingly promoted to the second spot. And what about Clyde... does this make Rangers Glasgow's fourth team, now?

I'll stop before everyone thinks I'm joining the football bandwagon. Or, rather, I'll throw in the names of Atletico Partick, Borussia Bishopbriggs, Sporting Club of Gartcosh and the like before I do...

Clyde are not a Glasgow team. They're Cumbernauld. They might look like equally shite places, but they are distinct in their variation of shite.

And Borussia Bishopbriggs vs Sporting Club Gartcosh would be one hell of a derby. The southside derby could be Deportivo La Cathcart vs Castlemilk Calcio.

[TomWazzleshaw]

EuroSpeedway.

Yeahhhhhhh buddy. I don't get the opportunity to watch many televised races from this track, seeing as I'm in the states, but it really seems like a well put together venue. Fun as hell to drive in TOCA 3 too. Doesn't this already have an FIA grade 1 or 1T rating?

I think it has either 1T or 2 but I'm not 100% sure.

[DemocalypseNow]

EuroSpeedway.

Yeahhhhhhh buddy. I don't get the opportunity to watch many televised races from this track, seeing as I'm in the states, but it really seems like a well put together venue. Fun as hell to drive in TOCA 3 too. Doesn't this already have an FIA grade 1 or 1T rating?

I think it has either 1T or 2 but I'm not 100% sure.

Both the Road Course and Oval have Grade 2 licenses.

The following is a list of every racetrack on earth that has a license to hold a Formula 1 race;
Yas Marina
Albert Park
Bahrain (all configurations)
Catalunya
Dubai
Fuji
Hockenheim
Hungaroring
Imola
Interlagos
Korea
Magny-Cours
Monaco
Monza
Mugello
Nurburgring
Paul Ricard
Red Bull Ring Spielberg (formerly A1 Ring)
Sepang
Shanghai Intl
Silverstone
Singapore Marina Bay
Spa-Francorchamps
Suzuka
Valencia (Street Circuit)

That is all. So Germany only has two F1 tracks at the moment. However that doesn't mean some tracks couldn't get a Grade 1 license if they wanted, some only apply for a Grade II because it costs less. Norisring, Saschenring and Oschersleben all currently have Grade II licenses.

I got the above from an official FIA document. What I don't understand is that Buddh International Circuit was missing from the list entirely under any grade. They must have got their track license very late, because the document was dated about two weeks before the Indian GP last year!

[RonDenisDeletraz]

Yeahhhhhhh buddy. I don't get the opportunity to watch many televised races from this track, seeing as I'm in the states, but it really seems like a well put together venue. Fun as hell to drive in TOCA 3 too. Doesn't this already have an FIA grade 1 or 1T rating?

I think it has either 1T or 2 but I'm not 100% sure.

Both the Road Course and Oval have Grade 2 licenses.

The following is a list of every racetrack on earth that has a license to hold a Formula 1 race;
Yas Marina
Albert Park
Bahrain (all configurations)
Catalunya
Dubai
Fuji
Hockenheim
Hungaroring
Imola
Interlagos
Korea
Magny-Cours
Monaco
Monza
Mugello
Nurburgring
Paul Ricard
Red Bull Ring Spielberg (formerly A1 Ring)
Sepang
Shanghai Intl
Silverstone
Singapore Marina Bay
Spa-Francorchamps
Suzuka
Valencia (Street Circuit)

That is all. So Germany only has two F1 tracks at the moment. However that doesn't mean some tracks couldn't get a Grade 1 license if they wanted, some only apply for a Grade II because it costs less. Norisring, Saschenring and Oschersleben all currently have Grade II licenses.

I got the above from an official FIA document. What I don't understand is that Buddh International Circuit was missing from the list entirely under any grade.

It might be an outdated list.

[JJMonty]

Yeahhhhhhh buddy. I don't get the opportunity to watch many televised races from this track, seeing as I'm in the states, but it really seems like a well put together venue. Fun as hell to drive in TOCA 3 too. Doesn't this already have an FIA grade 1 or 1T rating?

I think it has either 1T or 2 but I'm not 100% sure.

Both the Road Course and Oval have Grade 2 licenses.

The following is a list of every racetrack on earth that has a license to hold a Formula 1 race;
Yas Marina
Albert Park
Bahrain (all configurations)
Catalunya
Dubai
Fuji
Hockenheim
Hungaroring
Imola
Interlagos
Korea
Magny-Cours
Monaco
Monza
Mugello
Nurburgring
Paul Ricard
Red Bull Ring Spielberg (formerly A1 Ring)
Sepang
Shanghai Intl
Silverstone
Singapore Marina Bay
Spa-Francorchamps
Suzuka
Valencia (Street Circuit)

That is all. So Germany only has two F1 tracks at the moment. However that doesn't mean some tracks couldn't get a Grade 1 license if they wanted, some only apply for a Grade II because it costs less. Norisring, Saschenring and Oschersleben all currently have Grade II licenses.

I got the above from an official FIA document. What I don't understand is that Buddh International Circuit was missing from the list entirely under any grade.

I never realised there were so few tracks that could hold an F1 race To think 25 years ago, you had 1500bhp death traps racing around places like detroit, brands hatch, old Hockenheim etc...! I'd still love to see a Modern F1 car at Brands Hatch, just for the simple fact that there is no room for error and would give people a new challenge!

Back on Subject, so it was again someone spending too much money on one venue and not getting anything in return? Ergh... an all too familiar story No doubt, not helped by the high fee to host an F1 race!

I find it very suprising because out of all the country's that were part of the EU, I thought Germany did the best at coping with the recession! I have a very 50/50 view on the owners of the circuit however, I can see why the minister would want to create hotels and an ammusement park - if the Nordschlife really was the feature that brought tourists in from all over the world, then why not turn it into a family outing? Children can go to the amusement park whilst Daddy (or Mummy) goes and rag's the s**t out of their 1.4 Fiesta on the ring!

Both circuits are owned by the same group so I would assume that if they are declaring bankrupcy - that would be for both circuits?

As to the EU arguement, well because of me being a Jersey citizen (who isn't part of the EU), I have no rights to work or live in any of the EU - the only thing that will allow me is due to the fact that my dad is Scotish, so as an outsider - it would have been very annoying to try and do anything with my career or life when I am stuck to a few select places to work and live, but as an insider, I'd agree with Andreamoda, it helps protect the local's jobs, especially those who are in an industry where the money isn't as strong as Finance, Lawyers etc... And ultimately, helps make sure that those who work get rewarded, that people who are selling products are to sell it to a certain standard and try and make sure that every person has a better livelihood...... Like all schemes, it has it's pro's and con's, but it is one of the few schemes I have seen that help out the poorer and bring the rich back down to earth - of course some will find it fair and others won't, but it is at least a morally correct Legislation! For the rich guys that don't like it... well there is always Swizerland, Monaco or Jersey!

However, why can't the EU help out the ring? It is a historical piece of europe after all! (Nordschlife anyway), Politics has rarely helped Motorsport (unless you are part of a Rich Principality) and has normally reduced Motorsport events due to "excesive noise" etc... Why can't they help out a place just for once? They don't read enough Car Magazines obviously! All they need to do is look at the headline and see how a manufactor is gloating that they managed to build a car that could get around "Green Hell" in under 7 minutes!

[Alianora La Canta]

The Nurburgring's 90% owned by the German government, so I'd imagine they'd find another operator. If they do it quickly enough, they might even save the Grand Prix there. If not... ...the venue's probably more profitable without the F1, given how many other activities go on there, and perhaps a better operator might find a more sensible way of exploiting the opportunities Nurburgring grants. It could all go pear-shaped for the circuits, but I'm tending towards optimism regarding their futures.

[mario]

I never realised there were so few tracks that could hold an F1 race To think 25 years ago, you had 1500bhp death traps racing around places like detroit, brands hatch, old Hockenheim etc...! I'd still love to see a Modern F1 car at Brands Hatch, just for the simple fact that there is no room for error and would give people a new challenge!

Back on Subject, so it was again someone spending too much money on one venue and not getting anything in return? Ergh... an all too familiar story No doubt, not helped by the high fee to host an F1 race!

I find it very suprising because out of all the country's that were part of the EU, I thought Germany did the best at coping with the recession! I have a very 50/50 view on the owners of the circuit however, I can see why the minister would want to create hotels and an ammusement park - if the Nordschlife really was the feature that brought tourists in from all over the world, then why not turn it into a family outing? Children can go to the amusement park whilst Daddy (or Mummy) goes and rag's the s**t out of their 1.4 Fiesta on the ring!

Both circuits are owned by the same group so I would assume that if they are declaring bankrupcy - that would be for both circuits?

As to the EU arguement, well because of me being a Jersey citizen (who isn't part of the EU), I have no rights to work or live in any of the EU - the only thing that will allow me is due to the fact that my dad is Scotish, so as an outsider - it would have been very annoying to try and do anything with my career or life when I am stuck to a few select places to work and live, but as an insider, I'd agree with Andreamoda, it helps protect the local's jobs, especially those who are in an industry where the money isn't as strong as Finance, Lawyers etc... And ultimately, helps make sure that those who work get rewarded, that people who are selling products are to sell it to a certain standard and try and make sure that every person has a better livelihood...... Like all schemes, it has it's pro's and con's, but it is one of the few schemes I have seen that help out the poorer and bring the rich back down to earth - of course some will find it fair and others won't, but it is at least a morally correct Legislation! For the rich guys that don't like it... well there is always Swizerland, Monaco or Jersey!

However, why can't the EU help out the ring? It is a historical piece of europe after all! (Nordschlife anyway), Politics has rarely helped Motorsport (unless you are part of a Rich Principality) and has normally reduced Motorsport events due to "excesive noise" etc... Why can't they help out a place just for once? They don't read enough Car Magazines obviously! All they need to do is look at the headline and see how a manufactor is gloating that they managed to build a car that could get around "Green Hell" in under 7 minutes!

The modern licensing system the FIA has imposed has made a big difference, and it could be argued that has been both for the best and for the worst. It is true that F1 was at times mad enough to go to Brands Hatch during the turbo era, although Jacques Laffite's career ending accident showed the risks associated with doing so - similarly, although the injuries Brundle sustained in Detroit, where both of his ankles were broken did not signify the death knell of that circuit, it did hurt the standing of the circuit with the drivers and teams. Even with the relatively lax safety standards of the time, Brands Hatch was, IIRC, considered a bit of a dangerous circuit, and in some ways still is - the protection for the marshals from debris, for example, has come under criticism a number of times, and there have been a worryingly large number of recent incidents involving cars breaching the barriers.

As for the topic at hand, you're right that the major problem is, quite simply, that the private company behind the recent developments was far too optimistic about the expected traffic to the circuit, especially once they started jacking the fees up, and were splashing the cash about like water (with, as Ferrarist suggests, some coercion from the regional government to do so). FOM's fees might be reasonably steep, but they have been relatively generous with the Nurgurgring - they are thought to have cut the fees from $17 million in 2007 to $13 million in 2011 due to the financial problems they had, and as far as I am aware the operators of the Nurburgring made a profit on the German GP's they have held in the past.
As to why the EU have not stepped in, to be honest, I think that in many ways they have made the right decision - the problem is not just the €13 million that the circuit operators needed just to cover their operating deficit, it is the total debts of €413 million that has well and truly sunk the company, most of which is owed to the regional government (which is why the regional government was asking for state aid - if the operators collapse, they are facing a potential €300 million loss as the circuit and its facilities, which the regional government still owns, are only thought to be worth about €120 million). There is, very little, if any, chance that the debt can be recovered, so it makes sense in a way to cut their losses rather than continuing to support a loss making business.

[F1000X]

Germany only has two F1 tracks at the moment. However that doesn't mean some tracks couldn't get a Grade 1 license if they wanted, some only apply for a Grade II because it costs less. Norisring, Saschenring and Oschersleben all currently have Grade II licenses.

The Norisring could be cool, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't meet the track length minimum for an F1 race. You know where I'd really like to see F1 for kicks? The Salzburgring.

[DemocalypseNow]

Germany only has two F1 tracks at the moment. However that doesn't mean some tracks couldn't get a Grade 1 license if they wanted, some only apply for a Grade II because it costs less. Norisring, Saschenring and Oschersleben all currently have Grade II licenses.

The Norisring could be cool, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't meet the track length minimum for an F1 race. You know where I'd really like to see F1 for kicks? The Salzburgring.

It's a Grade 4 circuit, so...never happening, ever.

Also, I think the Nordeschlife should be protected as a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Of any racetrack on earth, this one and Le Mans are the two which deserve such status. It's more than just tarmac. It's the ultimate symbol of the automotive industry.

[dr-baker]

Germany only has two F1 tracks at the moment. However that doesn't mean some tracks couldn't get a Grade 1 license if they wanted, some only apply for a Grade II because it costs less. Norisring, Saschenring and Oschersleben all currently have Grade II licenses.

The Norisring could be cool, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't meet the track length minimum for an F1 race. You know where I'd really like to see F1 for kicks? The Salzburgring.

It's a Grade 4 circuit, so...never happening, ever.

Also, I think the Nordeschlife should be protected as a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Of any racetrack on earth, this one and Le Mans are the two which deserve such status. It's more than just tarmac. It's the ultimate symbol of the automotive industry.

Nordschliefe, Le Mans, Monza and Indianapolis. (It's too late to save Brooklands entirely.)

[F1000X]

Nordschliefe, Le Mans, Monza and Indianapolis. (It's too late to save Brooklands entirely.)

It would be cool to see Indianapolis get UNESCO status, but even if it never does, it's not going anywhere, ever.