The Gilles Villeneuve Badass Driving Thread

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 23 Sep 2012, 17:13

A thread to celebrate some, well, badass driving. Doesn't matter where it comes from, as long as it's badass.

I'll kick this off with the 3rd BTCC race at Rockingham, specifically the heroics of Gordon Shedden. To sum up his race, he: A) Started directly behind championship rivals Matt Neal and Jason Plato due to the reversed grid, and thanks to winning race 2, had more ballast than either; B) Had a fairly ordinary start while Neal and Plato had good starts; C) Had a massive slide on lap 2, in turn 1 on the oval course, but somehow managed to save it (the slide was very similar to the one Jeff Smith had which wound up with a pretty heavy crash for Smith); D) Had several smaller slides throughout the race, and finally; E) Won the race, taking the championship lead in the process. It was one of those drives where you knew the driver in question was either going to win or crash trying.

I'll also give a shout-out to Aron Smith for hanging on to 1st for so long in a car that did not deserve to be anywhere near the position, and also Matt Neal for not looking a bit out of shape despite an injured right hand from a motorbike accident.

midgrid · Post by **midgrid** » 23 Sep 2012, 18:03

Also from today, Felipe Massa's move on Bruno Senna. It had all the ingredients necessary to end in tears, but miraculously the pass was successful and neither car was damaged.

Shedden also did this last year at Snetterton.

Jeroen Bleekemolen demonstrates the correct procedure to follow in the case of one's wheel falling off.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 23 Sep 2012, 20:13

THIS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLo0yYRXUfE
3rd to first. this made it clear that he felt at home racing here in the west. even after going back to F1 in '99-'00, he returned, lost his legs in a crash, and STILL really wants to stay here and race in the 500

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 23 Sep 2012, 20:15

Robby Gordon showing Nigel Mansell who's boss at Surfer's Paradise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y69YG0lHuYw&feature=plcp

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 23 Sep 2012, 23:49

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:A thread to celebrate some, well, badass driving. Doesn't matter where it comes from, as long as it's badass.

I'll kick this off with the 3rd BTCC race at Rockingham, specifically the heroics of Gordon Shedden. To sum up his race, he: A) Started directly behind championship rivals Matt Neal and Jason Plato due to the reversed grid, and thanks to winning race 2, had more ballast than either; B) Had a fairly ordinary start while Neal and Plato had good starts; C) Had a massive slide on lap 2, in turn 1 on the oval course, but somehow managed to save it (the slide was very similar to the one Jeff Smith had which wound up with a pretty heavy crash for Smith); D) Had several smaller slides throughout the race, and finally; E) Won the race, taking the championship lead in the process. It was one of those drives where you knew the driver in question was either going to win or crash trying.

I'll also give a shout-out to Aron Smith for hanging on to 1st for so long in a car that did not deserve to be anywhere near the position, and also Matt Neal for not looking a bit out of shape despite an injured right hand from a motorbike accident.

This is why I want Shedden to win the chapmionship

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 23 Sep 2012, 23:58

Best save ever.

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 24 Sep 2012, 00:09

From the very man himself. Spins off, destroyed rear tyre. Most would immediately retire, not this hero: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbRnPwS1 ... ata_player

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 24 Sep 2012, 00:14

darkapprentice77 wrote:Best save ever.

Yo Danny Sullivan, I'm real happy for you and imma let you finish, but Gordon Shedden had the best save of all time!

I don't know what's more incredible; that Shedden rescued a car that was completely sideways and headed straight for the barrier in the wet, or that Tim Harvey and Toby Moody somehow missed it.

EDIT: For reference, here's Jeff Smith's crash a little bit after Shedden's save.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 24 Sep 2012, 00:35

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
darkapprentice77 wrote:Best save ever.

Yo Danny Sullivan, I'm real happy for you and imma let you finish, but Gordon Shedden had the best save of all time!

I don't know what's more incredible; that Shedden rescued a car that was completely sideways and headed straight for the barrier in the wet, or that Tim Harvey and Toby Moody somehow missed it.

EDIT: For reference, here's Jeff Smith's crash a little bit after Shedden's save.

Not really the same thought is it. All he had to do was floor the throttle in his front wheel drive Civic to get the car away from the barrier, because the car was pointing away from the barriers rather than towards. Whereas Danny Sullivan was rotating while driving a rear wheel drive single seater at twice the speed.

madmark1974 · Post by **madmark1974** » 24 Sep 2012, 09:32

More Zanardi :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywsB65YfLOQ

"The Pass", Laguna Seca 1996. I know this move has gone down in history, but it's frankly a bit ridiculous - he basically doesn't brake until about 50 metres too late and doesn't stay on the track
at all, but gets away with it. In F1 that pass would never have been allowed to stand - but hey, it's a strong part of the Zanardi legend, so why not?

Also this, ok so it's motorbikes, but Ralf Waldmann making up 36 seconds in the last 3 laps to take the win at Donington - even coming into the last corner it doesn't seem possible :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpgrIBaOQUI

P.S. Great commentary by Julian Ryder and Toby Moody on this clip.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 24 Sep 2012, 13:43

I wish I could find a clip of it to post here, but Alesi’s save during the qualifying session at Spa 2000, seriously has to be seen to be believed.

Basically it happened under braking for the 'old' Bus Stop where Alesi had undoubtedly the biggest oversteer moment I have ever seen an F1 car do!!! It was a full opposite lock job. How Alesi kept it from having a massive crash, I’ll never know. Thus prompting Martin Brundle (ITV commenter) to state something like; "the Prost is easily the most evil handling car out there".

Also some nice rallycross driving from Fisco at Nurburgring 1999….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewj0clJwz9M

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 24 Sep 2012, 15:33

Denny Hamlin's magnificent burnout yesterday. It was beautiful and spectacular.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 24 Sep 2012, 15:33

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRiZcXPpmuU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emYvs3D-2q4&fmt=18

That's all for now.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 26 Sep 2012, 03:07

darkapprentice77 wrote:Best save ever.

Can I put that behind Kenny Brack drifting a Champ Car at 230 MPH at the Lausitzring and not wrecking it or spinning out? ... and then Robby Gordon saving a right front tire blowout at Michigan. This should have been a really bad wreck;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxkf8aiW ... ure=relmfu

Then there's the drift by Jamie McMurray. The Jamie McMurray drift is pretty infamous in NASCAR forums for being totally awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4pbGTjVtz4

As soon as you get poked the wrong way on an oval like this, your next destination is either the grass or the fence. McMurray's teammate, one Juan Pablo Montoya, tried to one-up him, albeit with McMurray's help;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyJyx7Jm ... re=related

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Yo Danny Sullivan, I'm real happy for you and imma let you finish, but Gordon Shedden had the best save of all time!

I don't know what's more incredible; that Shedden rescued a car that was completely sideways and headed straight for the barrier in the wet, or that Tim Harvey and Toby Moody somehow missed it.

Not that impressive in that Civic. IndyCars are pretty heavy for single seaters. Any mistake you make will be magnified just by the sheer weight of it. If you miss a corner in an IndyCar, it's going to be harder to make that mistake up -- something Nigel Mansell said was the key difference between IndyCar and F1.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 26 Sep 2012, 11:44

Keke Rosberg appears to have unique car control abilities such as making spin recovery a bit of an art form. For example the 1st lap of 1983 Long Beach GP, where from 2nd position he spun 360 degrees on the 1st lap (avoiding hitting anything in the process), and barely lost a place!!! In this instance, as the car broke away from him, he appeared to slammed on the brakes & locked up the wheels. What was particularly impressive was the way he appeared to release the brakes at around 270 degrees as the car was still spinning around, found the correct gear, and carried on as if he was just showing off. A bit lucky but still amazing. This can be found on utube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkgV-CgOc-k ...at 1:16 minutes into the video.

Another speclatular example of Keke's getting out of trouble was in Canada 1985. Here's the link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGLTjIkJq8M

.... I just love the way he finds first gear so quickly and speeds away & the way Stefan Johansson was abolosutely gob smacked as he saw Keke's antics. :shock:

Amazingly it doesn't look like Keke had lost too much time in either of those spins.

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 27 Sep 2012, 19:44

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:I'll kick this off with the 3rd BTCC race at Rockingham, specifically the heroics of Gordon Shedden. To sum up his race, he: A) Started directly behind championship rivals Matt Neal and Jason Plato due to the reversed grid, and thanks to winning race 2, had more ballast than either; B) Had a fairly ordinary start while Neal and Plato had good starts; C) Had a massive slide on lap 2, in turn 1 on the oval course, but somehow managed to save it (the slide was very similar to the one Jeff Smith had which wound up with a pretty heavy crash for Smith); D) Had several smaller slides throughout the race, and finally; E) Won the race, taking the championship lead in the process. It was one of those drives where you knew the driver in question was either going to win or crash trying.

I'll also give a shout-out to Aron Smith for hanging on to 1st for so long in a car that did not deserve to be anywhere near the position, and also Matt Neal for not looking a bit out of shape despite an injured right hand from a motorbike accident.

Now I've finally watched all the races (we had F1, BTCC and WTCC the weekend just gone, it's taken me a while to catch up!) I would say yes to all of these. Shedden's lurid slide was made even more remarkable by the fact that gabbling idiots Moody and Harvey made no mention of it whatsoever when it happened. PLEASE ITV get someone decent in to commentate!

tzerof1 · Post by **tzerof1** » 28 Sep 2012, 03:37

Speaking of the BTCC and hairy moments, here's my favourite moment from the 2009 first Brands Hatch round, race 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPCGnkApnDU

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 28 Sep 2012, 07:21

tzerof1 wrote:Speaking of the BTCC and hairy moments, here's my favourite moment from the 2009 first Brands Hatch round, race 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPCGnkApnDU

As usual in the BTCC, Yvan Muller did it better.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 28 Sep 2012, 15:07

tzerof1 wrote:Speaking of the BTCC and hairy moments, here's my favourite moment from the 2009 first Brands Hatch round, race 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPCGnkApnDU

I was in the Paddock Hill grandstand when this happened - epic stuff. This is clearly what the BTCC is all about!

Copersucar · Post by **Copersucar** » 28 Sep 2012, 16:01

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 7ei0s8Q7YE

I think taking the wheel of and putting it back on again while travelling down a straight in a Formula Renault has to be up there.

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 29 Sep 2012, 00:24

Copersucar wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=c7ei0s8Q7YE

I think taking the wheel of and putting it back on again while travelling down a straight in a Formula Renault has to be up there.

Maybe that's what Deletraz was doing

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 29 Sep 2012, 16:17

except his car was fine

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 29 Sep 2012, 19:51

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7-nlUljzWA

Alice Powell doing some pretty nice defending.

MigelNansell · Post by **MigelNansell** » 22 Oct 2012, 03:53

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOdcspSMm6Y

Nigel Mansell Imola 1990 sorry about the quality

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 22 Oct 2012, 05:38

Justin Wilson doing a brilliant job of keeping that horrible aerodynamic nightmare-ish '03 Minardi under control here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2tH4ZgfZNY

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 22 Oct 2012, 13:10

nome66 wrote:Justin Wilson doing a brilliant job of keeping that horrible aerodynamic nightmare-ish '03 Minardi under control here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2tH4ZgfZNY

Fischella did something very similar to that during his final run in the 1998 Qualifying session. Unfortunately I was unable to find a utube video of it to post here. Also Herbert has a bit of a save when his rear suspension broke coming out of Casino Sq in 1999 & did well not to put the thing into the wall…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjSDL0pY-MM
(at 4.11 mintues. Although this camera angle doesn’t really do it justice since it is so far away. The more normal camera angle, from ITV's coverage, really shows Johnny movements on the steering wheel).

However IMO the best example of Badass driving at Monaco has to go to this example by the master of them all…

'Having dwelt upon this subject for a while, I think my nominated first-hand experience would have to be Monaco, 1981...

For final qualifying, I was sitting in the large grandstand facing the harbour - situated between Tabac and Piscene 1 - and surrounded by hundreds (if not thousands) of 'tifosi'. Towards the end of the session, Villeneuve set a very quick lap; I'm not sure if it was the fastest time of the session, but it must have been in the top two or three.

So there we all were; 'Gil' had put in a blinder of a lap and my 'co-standees' were understandably in raptures - as indeed was I, because he was a bit special anyway but also it was patently obvious that the 126C was a total dog of a chassis. But there was more to come...

On his supposed 'slow-down' lap, Gilles arrived at Tabac at unabated speed. As he turned-in, he threw the Ferrari sideways and held it in a massive, full-throttle powerslide and exited the said left-hander at such an acute angle it made my entire grandstand stand as one - all inhaling sharply - as we were certain we were going to see a big, big shunt.

But no; Gilles had it covered. And the most amazing element of my recollection? As we were rising to our feet en masse at this astonishing display, Villeneuve casually raised his right hand out of the cockpit and waved at the crowd. Still sideways, and hard on the gas...

Unforgettable!'

:shock:

Please be aware this text is copied from an autosport forum on a similar subject (best car control, post 196...by the host no less!), which can be found here…

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?s ... 038&st=160

There are some great accounts of some badass driving there, including Gilles’ legendary drive from that qualifying session at The Glen 1979. Great reading which I would highly recommend.

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 24 Oct 2012, 18:06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeTUquvfN3k#t=473s

DOSBoot · Post by **DOSBoot** » 25 Oct 2012, 03:32

Some from the good old days of Group B Rally.

Walter Rohl trying to avaoid a lawsuit in his Quattro.

Ari Vatanen having a close call in a Manta

Post by **Londoner** » 25 Oct 2012, 14:38

DOSBoot wrote:Some from the good old days of Group B Rally.

Walter Rohl trying to avaoid a lawsuit in his Quattro.

Dear HWNSNBM, those crowds! :shock:

The Group B rally drivers must have had balls of steel to step into cars that produced over 500 horsepower on poor roads, with barmy crowds lining the way, and the knowledge that their car was practically a deathtrap if they crashed. They deserve so much more recognition than they get.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 25 Oct 2012, 16:58

DOSBoot wrote:Some from the good old days of Group B Rally.

Walter Rohl trying to avaoid a lawsuit in his Quattro.

I'm surprised no spectators got hurt!

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 25 Oct 2012, 17:00

East Londoner wrote:
DOSBoot wrote:Some from the good old days of Group B Rally.

Walter Rohl trying to avaoid a lawsuit in his Quattro.

Dear HWNSNBM, those crowds!

The Group B rally drivers must have had balls of steel to step into cars that produced over 500 horsepower on poor roads, with barmy crowds lining the way, and the knowledge that their car was practically a deathtrap if they crashed. They deserve so much more recognition than they get.

Man I've done some pretty hairy things in a race car before, and I'd like to think I've got brass balls, but I doubt I could keep it flat through crowds like that.

Walter Rohl: "Your mind cannot keep up with these cars. Human thought is not fast enough."

Juha Matti Pellervo Kankkunen: "This WRC is for boys. Group B was for MEN"

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 25 Oct 2012, 17:02

dr-baker wrote:
DOSBoot wrote:Some from the good old days of Group B Rally.

Walter Rohl trying to avaoid a lawsuit in his Quattro.

I'm surprised no spectators got hurt!

Sadly in the 1986 Rallye Portugal 31 were injured and 3 killed when an RS200 speared into a massive wall of spectators. While I won't post it up here, there's video of the crash on youtube. Its amazing that only 3 people perished. Higher power at work no doubt.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 25 Oct 2012, 17:12

East Londoner wrote:They deserve so much more recognition than they get.

Don't know where you got this idea from, they are by far the most revered rally drivers ever. Henri Toivonen only had 3 rally wins to his name and is considered one of the all-time greats. Stig Blomqvist, Walter Röhrl, Hannu Mikkola, Ari Vatanen, Timo Salonen, Markku Alen, Michèle Mouton, Miki Biasion, Björn Waldegård, Juha Kankkunen, Bruno Saby, they are all considered the greats of rallying and they all raced in Group B. Even future champion Didier Auriol raced during Group B.

Post by **Londoner** » 25 Oct 2012, 17:38

kostas22 wrote:
East Londoner wrote:They deserve so much more recognition than they get.

Don't know where you got this idea from, they are by far the most revered rally drivers ever. Henri Toivonen only had 3 rally wins to his name and is considered one of the all-time greats. Stig Blomqvist, Walter Röhrl, Hannu Mikkola, Ari Vatanen, Timo Salonen, Markku Alen, Michèle Mouton, Miki Biasion, Björn Waldegård, Juha Kankkunen, Bruno Saby, they are all considered the greats of rallying and they all raced in Group B. Even future champion Didier Auriol raced during Group B.

I was thinking in terms of all motorsports, not just rally.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 25 Oct 2012, 18:32

East Londoner wrote:
kostas22 wrote:
East Londoner wrote:They deserve so much more recognition than they get.

Don't know where you got this idea from, they are by far the most revered rally drivers ever. Henri Toivonen only had 3 rally wins to his name and is considered one of the all-time greats. Stig Blomqvist, Walter Röhrl, Hannu Mikkola, Ari Vatanen, Timo Salonen, Markku Alen, Michèle Mouton, Miki Biasion, Björn Waldegård, Juha Kankkunen, Bruno Saby, they are all considered the greats of rallying and they all raced in Group B. Even future champion Didier Auriol raced during Group B.

I was thinking in terms of all motorsports, not just rally.

They already get a lot of recognition and I'm not sure they deserve any more. How can you say these guys are among the Top 10 or 20 racing drivers ever when Carlos Reutemann strolled along in 1985 for his home event and finished on the podium, driving the Peugeot 205 T16? He went up against the best with only a single Rally Argentina appearance under his belt previously and easily held his own. Imagine how good the F1 drivers back then would have been if they had done proper career switches like Kimi Raikkonen attempted.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 25 Oct 2012, 19:32

kostas22 wrote:They already get a lot of recognition and I'm not sure they deserve any more. How can you say these guys are among the Top 10 or 20 racing drivers ever when Carlos Reutemann strolled along in 1985 for his home event and finished on the podium, driving the Peugeot 205 T16? He went up against the best with only a single Rally Argentina appearance under his belt previously and easily held his own. Imagine how good the F1 drivers back then would have been if they had done proper career switches like Kimi Raikkonen attempted.

I wonder if that had to do with how much F1 tech was in the cars? Ferrari helped Lancia develop the Stratos and 037, Renault's 16T was heavily based off everything they learned with turbo F1 motors, and many cars rocked F1-style aluminum honeycomb "box-sections" and very F1 like rear wings (see the Quattro), plus nearly all of them were mid engined and many were still RWD. Now I know there's little/no overlap in terms of the two disiplines but at least the cars back then were similar. The only thing Kimi's Citreon had in common with the F2007 was that both had 4 wheels and an engine.

DOSBoot · Post by **DOSBoot** » 25 Oct 2012, 22:07

Wallio wrote:
kostas22 wrote:They already get a lot of recognition and I'm not sure they deserve any more. How can you say these guys are among the Top 10 or 20 racing drivers ever when Carlos Reutemann strolled along in 1985 for his home event and finished on the podium, driving the Peugeot 205 T16? He went up against the best with only a single Rally Argentina appearance under his belt previously and easily held his own. Imagine how good the F1 drivers back then would have been if they had done proper career switches like Kimi Raikkonen attempted.

I wonder if that had to do with how much F1 tech was in the cars? Ferrari helped Lancia develop the Stratos and 037, Renault's 16T was heavily based off everything they learned with turbo F1 motors, and many cars rocked F1-style aluminum honeycomb "box-sections" and very F1 like rear wings (see the Quattro), plus nearly all of them were mid engined and many were still RWD. Now I know there's little/no overlap in terms of the two disiplines but at least the cars back then were similar. The only thing Kimi's Citreon had in common with the F2007 was that both had 4 wheels and an engine.

In my opinion, it's rather unfair to compare both Formula 1, and Group B. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Both are great, and have had their amazing drivers. It should be noted that Ruetteman, and Raikkonen are the only two drivers to acually score points in both WRC, and F1. But it's no secret that F1 in the 1980s was a major influence for Group B. On the contrary, much of the early grand prix events, were more or less rallies. So much of what we saw in early Formula 1, was inspired by rally racing. It was like that up until the 1960s, when saftey conserns came along. Juan Manuel Fangio and Stirling Moss are good examples of drivers who adapted well in both, grand prix racing, and rally events as well. You could spend hours, even days, arguing about who were the more talented. But in my mind, both are equally noteable. It takes guts to drive in an open wheel vehicle in no roof that goes blazing fast around a race track, and it takes guts to drive a 300hp turbocharged hatchback flat out across varied terrain on roads that are barely wide enough for your're vehicle to run on. It makes no difference to me, they are both great.

DOSBoot · Post by **DOSBoot** » 26 Oct 2012, 01:51

Anyways, more Group B for you.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 26 Oct 2012, 14:28

DOSBoot wrote:
Wallio wrote:
kostas22 wrote:They already get a lot of recognition and I'm not sure they deserve any more. How can you say these guys are among the Top 10 or 20 racing drivers ever when Carlos Reutemann strolled along in 1985 for his home event and finished on the podium, driving the Peugeot 205 T16? He went up against the best with only a single Rally Argentina appearance under his belt previously and easily held his own. Imagine how good the F1 drivers back then would have been if they had done proper career switches like Kimi Raikkonen attempted.

I wonder if that had to do with how much F1 tech was in the cars? Ferrari helped Lancia develop the Stratos and 037, Renault's 16T was heavily based off everything they learned with turbo F1 motors, and many cars rocked F1-style aluminum honeycomb "box-sections" and very F1 like rear wings (see the Quattro), plus nearly all of them were mid engined and many were still RWD. Now I know there's little/no overlap in terms of the two disiplines but at least the cars back then were similar. The only thing Kimi's Citreon had in common with the F2007 was that both had 4 wheels and an engine.

In my opinion, it's rather unfair to compare both Formula 1, and Group B. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Both are great, and have had their amazing drivers. It should be noted that Ruetteman, and Raikkonen are the only two drivers to acually score points in both WRC, and F1. But it's no secret that F1 in the 1980s was a major influence for Group B. On the contrary, much of the early grand prix events, were more or less rallies. So much of what we saw in early Formula 1, was inspired by rally racing. It was like that up until the 1960s, when saftey conserns came along. Juan Manuel Fangio and Stirling Moss are good examples of drivers who adapted well in both, grand prix racing, and rally events as well. You could spend hours, even days, arguing about who were the more talented. But in my mind, both are equally noteable. It takes guts to drive in an open wheel vehicle in no roof that goes blazing fast around a race track, and it takes guts to drive a 300hp turbocharged hatchback flat out across varied terrain on roads that are barely wide enough for your're vehicle to run on. It makes no difference to me, they are both great.

Obviously every racing style is brutally different and brutally difficult. My point was in regards to Carlos. It was stated above how he was able hop in a Group B car and go. I was merely suggesting that that possibly occurred due to their similarities at the time. You could say the same about early '90s Group C cars as well, as they were flirting with F1 levels of insanity. Not saying anything is easier/harder, just pointing out design similarities.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 05 Nov 2012, 19:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gdmpgzb8i0