The HRT thread

Ferrarist · Post by **Ferrarist** » 14 Nov 2012, 14:47

Kazakhstan buying a stake in HRT? This guy will like it for sure:

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 17 Nov 2012, 06:06

Ferrim wrote:The Kazakhstani link is an interesting one, indeed. Kazakhstan is the kind of country that could spend big money in this kind of project, as they are already doing in other sports through the Astana brand.

To be honest, I don't think anything is going to come of it. It was just an interesting theory that caught my eye, one that explained the presence of Nazarbayev at the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, his connection to Daniel Juncadella through the Astana Group's sponsorship of him in Formula 3, and Juncadella's connection to HRT through his uncle.

Somehow, I think there are only going to be eleven teams in 2013.

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 17 Nov 2012, 06:28

Yes, I also fear that there will be only eleven teams next year. I fear Marussia and Caterham will never be as interesting as HRT.

solarcold · Post by **solarcold** » 17 Nov 2012, 07:57

But we can... eh.. Believe?

Post by **mario** » 17 Nov 2012, 08:19

pi314159 wrote:Yes, I also fear that there will be only eleven teams next year. I fear Marussia and Caterham will never be as interesting as HRT.

With the news of redundancy notices being handed out and rumours that the team may be shut down as early as December, unless we see a last minute buyer with substantial reserves of cash appear at the last minute things do not sound at all promising...

Furthermore, I would be willing to wager that it might not be all that long before we see only 10 teams given that Marussia's finances are in a terrible state - they have more debts than the team is worth (the team is valued at £45 million but has debts of nearly £80 million) and their operating losses increased sharply last year. Even if they do succeed in finishing in 10th place in the WCC, the additional revenue they'd probably receive would still not be enough for them to turn a profit, and Lloyds won't be willing to continue lending to them forever (especially given that they are still partially owned by the UK government, who are unlikely to approve of lending more money to a loss making venture).

Post by **Londoner** » 17 Nov 2012, 10:03

And suddenly I find myself raging at Formula Elaborate Bluff and Max Mosley. The two-tier budget cap idea was absolute lunacy. There should have been just one budget cap, say of £80 million, and then we might not find ourselves in this mess. :evil:

Still, an HRT profile would make for some interesting reading.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 17 Nov 2012, 10:06

East Londoner wrote:And suddenly I find myself raging at Formula Elaborate Bluff and Max Mosley. The two-tier budget cap idea was absolute lunacy. There should have been just one budget cap, say of £80 million, and then we might not find ourselves in this mess.

Still, an HRT profile would make for some interesting reading.

It wasn't just the budget cap that was the problem. The entry process was fundamentally flawed to the point where potentially more able candidates like Lola were passed over in place of people who didn't deserve to be on the grid in the first place (USF1, I'm looking at you).

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 17 Nov 2012, 10:22

Wizzie wrote:
East Londoner wrote:And suddenly I find myself raging at Formula Elaborate Bluff and Max Mosley. The two-tier budget cap idea was absolute lunacy. There should have been just one budget cap, say of £80 million, and then we might not find ourselves in this mess.

Still, an HRT profile would make for some interesting reading.

It wasn't just the budget cap that was the problem. The entry process was fundamentally flawed to the point where potentially more able candidates like Lola were passed over in place of people who didn't deserve to be on the grid in the first place (USF1, I'm looking at you).

Yes, the entry process was really flawed. Why not hold pre-qualifying again. Those who are not capable of running an F1 team would have disappeared quite fast. (I'm looking at you, Andrea Sassetti / Ernesto Vita etc.), and I'm quite sure, by 2011 we would have been down to 28-30 cars, which is in my opinion a quite good number of entries.

BTW, i think there's no way around a budget cap now. HRT is nearly finished, Marussia also in trouble and Force India's problems aren't new also. Sauber have a quite small budget and dependant on Telmex money, and I don't know how much longer Mercedes will stay if they continue struggling like now.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 17 Nov 2012, 11:12

Don't blame Mosley, rather blame the teams who rejected any form of budget cap and did so in a manner that forces most of them to forever do so, no matter how much they'd actually want one, if they don't want to surrender power to Ecclestone and Todt.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 17 Nov 2012, 11:35

pi314159 wrote: HRT is nearly finished, Marussia also in trouble and Force India's problems aren't new also. Sauber have a quite small budget and dependant on Telmex money, and I don't know how much longer Mercedes will stay if they continue struggling like now.

You are scaring me. Imagine if all those teams would dissolve.

girry · Post by **girry** » 17 Nov 2012, 11:41

Public will be happy as long as they see Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel racing, so I'm afraid nothing will happen regarding trying to keep small teams afloat until there are, like, 10-12 cars on the grid...

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 17 Nov 2012, 11:52

giraurd wrote:Public will be happy as long as they see Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel racing, so I'm afraid nothing will happen regarding trying to keep small teams afloat until there are, like, 10-12 cars on the grid...

It think they are trying to keep 10 teams running. Less than 20 cars would make the grid look empty. But I think the majority doesn't care about the three small teams.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 17 Nov 2012, 11:53

pi314159 wrote:
giraurd wrote:Public will be happy as long as they see Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel racing, so I'm afraid nothing will happen regarding trying to keep small teams afloat until there are, like, 10-12 cars on the grid...

It think they are trying to keep 10 teams running. Less than 20 cars would make the grid look empty. But I think the majority doesn't care about the three small teams.

Doesn't the Concorde Agreement state that there has to be a minimum of 20 cars on the grid?

macherone · Post by **macherone** » 17 Nov 2012, 18:35

Wizzie wrote:
pi314159 wrote:
giraurd wrote:Public will be happy as long as they see Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel racing, so I'm afraid nothing will happen regarding trying to keep small teams afloat until there are, like, 10-12 cars on the grid...

It think they are trying to keep 10 teams running. Less than 20 cars would make the grid look empty. But I think the majority doesn't care about the three small teams.

Doesn't the Concorde Agreement state that there has to be a minimum of 20 cars on the grid?

I believe it's around 18 cars minimum.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 17 Nov 2012, 20:54

Mario, I think Marussia's high spending last year was related to their factory move to Banbury, whether that will prove to be their downfall remains to be seen. I personally think that for 2013 at the very least they should be fine, they've already started working on the car so they must have planned out a budget and a timeline of progression. Hopefully they will be able to secure a couple more sponsors for next year if they manage to hold onto 10th overall.

What all this finally confirms though is that the sport as it is now is fundamentally flawed, and completely unsustainable. It has failed entirely not only to deal with the changing global economic climate, but to protect existing teams on the grid and facilitate conditions favourable for new teams entering. In short, the failure in 2009 to agree on budget restrictions may yet prove to be the death knell of the sport as we know it. The fans, the sponsors, the suppliers and the new teams in 2010 have been completely let down by the greedy, irresponsible dealings of the existing teams, Bernie Ecclestone and FOM, and the FIA.

Post by **mario** » 17 Nov 2012, 21:33

AndreaModa wrote:Mario, I think Marussia's high spending last year was related to their factory move to Banbury, whether that will prove to be their downfall remains to be seen. I personally think that for 2013 at the very least they should be fine, they've already started working on the car so they must have planned out a budget and a timeline of progression. Hopefully they will be able to secure a couple more sponsors for next year if they manage to hold onto 10th overall.

What all this finally confirms though is that the sport as it is now is fundamentally flawed, and completely unsustainable. It has failed entirely not only to deal with the changing global economic climate, but to protect existing teams on the grid and facilitate conditions favourable for new teams entering. In short, the failure in 2009 to agree on budget restrictions may yet prove to be the death knell of the sport as we know it. The fans, the sponsors, the suppliers and the new teams in 2010 have been completely let down by the greedy, irresponsible dealings of the existing teams, Bernie Ecclestone and FOM, and the FIA.

Whilst it is true that Marussia's change in facilities will have lead to something of a one off expense, that was only partially responsible for their problems - costs rose about 11%, but the other problem was that their income fell 5% due to the loss of some of their smaller sponsors and a cut in revenue from FOM after being beaten by HRT. It may well be that the team is confident that they can secure long term funding, but given that the Guardian reported that they are in talks with Lloyds about the repayment dates of some of their loans (around £60 million of their loans are due for repayment this year), their short term cash flow could be a bit of a sticking point.

As to the wider financial questions, it is true that the sport has somewhat papered over the cracks for some time - outfits like HRT are always going to be the most vulnerable at times like this, lacking both potential pull for sponsors and political influence within the sport. In HRT's case, that was further reinforced by their decision to effectively cut themselves off from the other teams by publicly burning their bridges with FOTA - effectively cutting themselves out of the main political and economic forums within the sport.

Whilst the teams remain utterly divided, though, FOM's control of the commercial revenues, added to the deals that the larger teams have cut in order to maintain their share of the spoils (positions of influence within FOM), means that things are unlikely to change unless something drastic happens. There are only a few things that I can see forcing that to happen - one would be seeing multiple teams collapse and forcing the issue, and the other would be if a major manufacturer with serious clout entered the sport and forced that change through.
The former is not exactly a palatable scenario, though we might well see that happening soon enough: in the latter case, the only manufacturer that might have that sort of clout is VW (they were able to influence the initial discussions on the new turbo engines in their preferred direction before pulling out of the talks). However, with VW resolutely wedded to Endurance Racing, that prospect remains unlikely (speaking of which, F1 might soon find itself regretting the steady creep of manufacturers towards the ACO).

Backmarker · Post by **Backmarker** » 17 Nov 2012, 21:47

mario wrote:Whilst the teams remain utterly divided, though, FOM's control of the commercial revenues, added to the deals that the larger teams have cut in order to maintain their share of the spoils (positions of influence within FOM), means that things are unlikely to change unless something drastic happens. There are only a few things that I can see forcing that to happen - one would be seeing multiple teams collapse and forcing the issue, and the other would be if a major manufacturer with serious clout entered the sport and forced that change through.
The former is not exactly a palatable scenario, though we might well see that happening soon enough: in the latter case, the only manufacturer that might have that sort of clout is VW (they were able to influence the initial discussions on the new turbo engines in their preferred direction before pulling out of the talks). However, with VW resolutely wedded to Endurance Racing, that prospect remains unlikely (speaking of which, F1 might soon find itself regretting the steady creep of manufacturers towards the ACO).

I think it's going to be a couple more years before the manufacturers look to enter F1, and when they do there's quite a choice of teams available to them: Toro Rosso, HRT, Force India and Marussia are fairly explicitly available, Sauber and Lotus would also probably be responsive to offers. While HRT would have the benefit of being dirt cheap, Toro Rosso, Force India, Sauber and Lotus all come with the benefit of having top-class facilities, so if I was a manufacturer, I would chose one of those teams to buy.

S951 · Post by **S951** » 17 Nov 2012, 22:30

all HRT have is a base which according to some on autosport is only leased have limited in house facilities with everything else out sourced. DOn't know how true it all is but it is coming from a well known member from there and f1tech that pretty much hates HRT by the way he posts about them, it's a shame they are going this way as they looked to be making progress despite the car being a bit of a dog.

Question to the tech heads in reality is the F112 much better than the F111?

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 18 Nov 2012, 00:32

I think the F112 is better than the F111, but when compared to the rest of the grid, they're about the same. HRT only really lucked into 11th in the WCC last year. The same might be said of Marussia stealing 10th from Caterham, but they've had some excellent performances that suggest that luck wasn't the only factor.

Anyway, I have to wonder about HRT's comments that they were afraid of a DNQ in Austin. They never really threatened the 107% time in FP1, 2 or 3, but once in qualfying, they comfortably made it. I suspect they were talking doom and gloom, fully aware that they could make it on the softer tyres, to make the team more appealing to prospective buyers.

RealRacingRoots · Post by **RealRacingRoots** » 18 Nov 2012, 00:41

I am a part of the Midweek Motorsport Listener's Collective group on Facebook, and one of the guys who runs the group (and Radio Le Mans) linked this to the group.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2012/10/26/cpp-racing-f1-motogp.html

Now that got me thinking, why invest in just the company that helps runs F1, when they can save HRT? Pipe dream, i know.

Still, the F112 is better than the F111. Although the big improvement between the two is the mechanical grip, the lack of aero will always hurt a slower team.

macherone · Post by **macherone** » 18 Nov 2012, 03:30

RealRacingRoots wrote:I am a part of the Midweek Motorsport Listener's Collective group on Facebook, and one of the guys who runs the group (and Radio Le Mans) linked this to the group.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2012/10/26/cpp-racing-f1-motogp.html

Now that got me thinking, why invest in just the company that helps runs F1, when they can save HRT? Pipe dream, i know.

To be honest, I wouldn't like to see my pension funds being crashed by Karthikeyan every few weeks.

RealRacingRoots · Post by **RealRacingRoots** » 18 Nov 2012, 06:20

macherone wrote:
RealRacingRoots wrote:I am a part of the Midweek Motorsport Listener's Collective group on Facebook, and one of the guys who runs the group (and Radio Le Mans) linked this to the group.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2012/10/26/cpp-racing-f1-motogp.html

Now that got me thinking, why invest in just the company that helps runs F1, when they can save HRT? Pipe dream, i know.

To be honest, I wouldn't like to see my pension funds being crashed by Karthikeyan every few weeks.

I don't like your lack of Optimism. If the CPP buys into HRT, they will be rejectful for longer; and isn't that what we want here until they get their time in the sun?

Post by **mario** » 18 Nov 2012, 09:19

Captain Hammer wrote:I think the F112 is better than the F111, but when compared to the rest of the grid, they're about the same. HRT only really lucked into 11th in the WCC last year. The same might be said of Marussia stealing 10th from Caterham, but they've had some excellent performances that suggest that luck wasn't the only factor.

Anyway, I have to wonder about HRT's comments that they were afraid of a DNQ in Austin. They never really threatened the 107% time in FP1, 2 or 3, but once in qualfying, they comfortably made it. I suspect they were talking doom and gloom, fully aware that they could make it on the softer tyres, to make the team more appealing to prospective buyers.

De La Rosa seemed to believe that the much higher track temperatures for qualifying (it had risen by around 15ºC compared to the morning session) was just enough for them to be able to get their tyres into the working range. I would have thought that suggesting that they might miss the 107% rule, even if you were confident that you'd then comfortably clear it afterwards and generate positive headlines later on, would be damaging to their sales prospects rather than making them more attractive - the prospect of not seeing you car on screen at all would act as a deterrent to sponsors, which in turn could hurt the income of the team and make it less appealing to potential buyers.

Backmarker wrote:
mario wrote:Whilst the teams remain utterly divided, though, FOM's control of the commercial revenues, added to the deals that the larger teams have cut in order to maintain their share of the spoils (positions of influence within FOM), means that things are unlikely to change unless something drastic happens. There are only a few things that I can see forcing that to happen - one would be seeing multiple teams collapse and forcing the issue, and the other would be if a major manufacturer with serious clout entered the sport and forced that change through.
The former is not exactly a palatable scenario, though we might well see that happening soon enough: in the latter case, the only manufacturer that might have that sort of clout is VW (they were able to influence the initial discussions on the new turbo engines in their preferred direction before pulling out of the talks). However, with VW resolutely wedded to Endurance Racing, that prospect remains unlikely (speaking of which, F1 might soon find itself regretting the steady creep of manufacturers towards the ACO).

I think it's going to be a couple more years before the manufacturers look to enter F1, and when they do there's quite a choice of teams available to them: Toro Rosso, HRT, Force India and Marussia are fairly explicitly available, Sauber and Lotus would also probably be responsive to offers. While HRT would have the benefit of being dirt cheap, Toro Rosso, Force India, Sauber and Lotus all come with the benefit of having top-class facilities, so if I was a manufacturer, I would chose one of those teams to buy.

I would agree that it is likely to be a long time before the manufacturers return to F1, even if there were a few recent whispers in Racecar Engineering that Honda were looking at F1 again and had got as far as a conceptual design for the post 2014 regulations.
Force India might already be accounted for come 2014 - there have been a few odd rumours suggesting that they are switching back to Ferrari engines (which might suggest that Force India are looking to offer Bianchi a seat in return for free or discounted engines from Ferrari), but the other teams would probably be receptive to offers if the right one was made. Unfortunately, whilst HRT would be dirt cheap to buy, they'd also require the most investment of those teams, whereas Lotus and Sauber would cost more upfront but be more appealing for the long term thanks to most of the investment work having already been done.

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 18 Nov 2012, 20:16

Release Vic Lee on parole and let him buy it.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 18 Nov 2012, 22:02

Well done today, boys. Bringing both cars home to the flag. Feel proud.

cbbcisace · Post by **cbbcisace** » 18 Nov 2012, 22:05

OK I know a lot of my posts are in this thread but what I hear is that 3 people are still interested in HRT :-

1. Qatar Group
2. China Group
3. Spanish Group

What i do find interesting is that the company building the F113 has been asked to start work again!.

If I hear anymore i will let you all know.

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 18 Nov 2012, 22:07

Actually, getting both to the end was much better than I'd thought.

As for Red Bull whinging on and on about Narain getting in the way....GET A LIFE, YOU BORING CORPORATE B*****DS!

McDuck · Post by **McDuck** » 18 Nov 2012, 22:13

Roger Penske should make a play for HRT and use Kickstater to help pay for and promote it here in the states.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 18 Nov 2012, 22:14

Barbazza wrote:Actually, getting both to the end was much better than I'd thought.

As for Red Bull whinging on and on about Narain getting in the way....GET A LIFE, YOU BORING CORPORATE B*****DS!

Yeah, that doesn't seem to be the very 'modern' and therefore 'Red Bull' thing to do.

macherone · Post by **macherone** » 18 Nov 2012, 22:27

McDuck wrote:Roger Penske should make a play for HRT and use Kickstater to help pay for and promote it here in the states.

To be honest, I'd like to see Chip Ganassi buying HRT. That can't be more expensive that the load of rubbish called EGR, and is getting the same kind of results.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 19 Nov 2012, 01:09

Give it to Don Pentecost. :lol:

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 20 Nov 2012, 07:42

Latest rumour - according to f1enigma - is that Alex Wurz and Antonio Mesquida, a Spanish media consultant, are trying to buy the team.

https://twitter.com/f1enigma/status/270784397962268673

cbbcisace · Post by **cbbcisace** » 20 Nov 2012, 08:55

Captain Hammer wrote:Latest rumour - according to f1enigma - is that Alex Wurz and Antonio Mesquida, a Spanish media consultant, are trying to buy the team.

https://twitter.com/f1enigma/status/270784397962268673

With Chinese backing rumoured very strong!

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 20 Nov 2012, 09:17

If there is Chinese backing involved, which company could it be? Could it be Geely? Geely F1 team?
Remember their F1 "model":

A weird mixture of Minardi and Marussia!

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 20 Nov 2012, 09:18

Shizuka wrote:If there is Chinese backing involved, which company could it be? Could it be Geely? Geely F1 team?

Who says it's a company? It could be a weel-financed individual.

cbbcisace · Post by **cbbcisace** » 20 Nov 2012, 09:19

Maybe what happened with Virgin and Marussia? Are there many Chinese Car companies?

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 20 Nov 2012, 09:35

Captain Hammer wrote:Latest rumour - according to f1enigma - is that Alex Wurz and Antonio Mesquida, a Spanish media consultant, are trying to buy the team.

https://twitter.com/f1enigma/status/270784397962268673

Wurz buying HRT would make sense, as he already tried entering in 2010 with a team called Superfund.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 20 Nov 2012, 09:38

With Mesquida behind it, the team would obviously not renamed, but "Wurz Grand Prix" would have such a Ligier-esque feeling to it.

Ferrarist · Post by **Ferrarist** » 20 Nov 2012, 11:28

McDuck wrote:Roger Penske should make a play for HRT and use Kickstater to help pay for and promote it here in the states.

I doubt that Roger would want to something as intense as F1 in this stage of his live. Even though he could probably build a decent F1 car, if he really wants.

I put my money on Chinese "investors" coming in, enabling Ma-Qing Hua (Sort of reminds me of "King" Hiro Matsushita) to do his year in F1. Maybe Tata stays on board, thus we'd have an epic reject season for HRT. :mrgreen:

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 20 Nov 2012, 11:36

Ferrarist wrote:
McDuck wrote:Roger Penske should make a play for HRT and use Kickstater to help pay for and promote it here in the states.

I doubt that Roger would want to something as intense as F1 in this stage of his live. Even though he could probably build a decent F1 car, if he really wants.

I put my money on Chinese "investors" coming in, enabling Ma-Qing Hua (Sort of reminds me of "King" Hiro Matsushita) to do his year in F1. Maybe Tata stays on board, thus we'd have an epic reject season for HRT.

Tata and a chinese investor would mean a Ma-Qing Hua and Narain Karthikeyan lineup. I think nothing since Pacific's 1995 lineup was that rejectful. Maybe except Rosset/Sospiri at Lola.