Anyone else concerned about 2013?

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 22 Nov 2012, 20:03

Hi everyone,

The fairly straightforward decision to give Mercedes the ROTR for Texas has got me thinking. For it was in the same race that Lewis Hamilton underlined his undeniable class by running down Sebastian Vettel who had otherwise dominated the weekend. As I said in the ROTR thread, the Brackley team (under whatever name) seem to have this inability to respond during the season, so it's likely that Hamilton won't be a factor in the championship next year.

Ferrari haven't really come "out of the box" with a world-beating car in years. One has to suspect that they won't next year either, and Alonso will need to put in another superhuman effort just to stay in the hunt. McLaren will have what I consider to be their weakest driving line-up in a decade, or perhaps even since 1994 or 1995. Button is not an A-class driver like Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel (I would call him an A-minus class driver) and Perez ... well, his performances since he signed for McLaren say it all. Meanwhile, Red Bull seem to have unlocked how to make the Pirellis work and maximise performance even without off-throttle exhaust blowing. Once Vettel's out front and in control, Webber can't hold a candle to him.

Anyone else already concerned that next season will turn into a boring Vettel benefit?

As for the rest of the field, drivers who deserve to be in the field on merit like Kobayashi and Kovalainen look like having to make way for the likes of Gutierrez and Van der Garde. While that potentially adds a little reject intrigue, it doesn't bode well for a thoroughly competitive midfield. HRT look like they're going down the clapper as well.

Could it be a case of enjoying this weekend's season finale while you can, because next season won't be as interesting? Your thoughts?

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 22 Nov 2012, 20:26

I'm more worried bout 21 December at the moment :lol:

once that passes then I know the world hasn't ended

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 22 Nov 2012, 20:28

I wasn't worried until now. I'm hoping Lotus by some miracle give Kimi Raikkonen a championship contending car, because i'm unsure Ferrari and McLaren will be able to match Red Bull. Mercedes don't have a hope in hell either, even with Lewis Hamilton.

And if HRT go, the 90s go with it.

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 22 Nov 2012, 20:32

I agree that Red Bull could possibly take another easy championship.

But behind them, it's quite close. Ferrari, as you said, haven't produced a great car for years, and they're having problems with their wind tunnel at the moment. Hamilton has been outperforming his car during the last races, so with Button and Perez, McLaren will drop back a bit. Only slightly behind these two teams, I see Lotus. Räikkönen is a great driver, and if the Lotus is as good as this year's, Lotus can again fight with Ferrari and McLaren. Grosjean is fast, as we have seen. If he becomes a bit more consistent, and stops ruining his races at the start, he can also score some podiums next year. I don't really know what to expect from Mercedes. Hamilton is a good driver, but Mercedes have been really slow over the last races. With the rules staying pretty much the same for next year, iI can't really see them being successfull before 2014. Sauber and Force India could benefit from McLaren falling behind. FI have just announced that they're increasing their budget by 50 Mio. pounds and Sauber have a good 2012 car, so they should be good in 2013 also. So there are up to 5 teams behind Red Bull who could be challenging for podiums. Maybe also Williams. They were fast ´during the last races, and Maldonado finally has stopped crashing and drove some good races and especially qualifyings. I don't expect Toro Rosso to achieve much more than this season. I see Marussia and Caterham closely battling for 10 place, while HRT, if they survive, stay far off the pace at the back of the grid.

I agree that 2013 could be a boring title battle, but behind Red Bull, I expect a very tight midfield, with up to 6 teams within less than a second, similar to 2009. I don't expect any miracles from Marussia and Caterham, and HRT can be proud if they manage to be on the grid next year.

Post by **Ataxia** » 22 Nov 2012, 20:38

I actually think Perez might have a shot at the title next year. Why? The car will be less of a compromise between driving styles and hence can go all out to suit both Button and Perez.

Yes, since signing for McLaren Checo has managed to be a bit...well, rubbish. But I think that if he gets all of his crashes and poor results out of his system now, then it holds him in good stead for next year. Especially if he can learn from Button too.

Of course, Red Bull will be up there because the rules change very little. But I don't think that they'll have it easy, because if Ferrari can develop a sub-par car into a race-winner, imagine what they can do with a better starting point next season.

Mercedes need to start afresh next year if they're to have a hope of winning more than just the one race. Forget developing 2012's car, just build from the roots up.

It's going to be a shame to see the possible departure of Kamui, but if he can land himself a Pirelli test role or something he should be well geared up for 2014. Speaking of which, any midfield team with a space (so essentially, Force India) would definitely find Jaime Alguersuari an asset. The Pirelli tyres next year should be a little different, and he'd have at least some knowledge of how to work them. Hopefully, Pirelli can throw a season-long curve ball for all of the teams so that things are shaken up a little bit.

Of course, one must not discount Lotus either. Both drivers will have had a whole season behind them, and with a cash injection from Coca-Cola they should be able to challenge for honours on a more regular basis. Kimi could challenge for the title again if the team can continue on their upward path.

The midfield actually looks quite interesting too. Hulkenberg will be leading the challenge for Sauber, and we'll get to see how good Gutierrez actually is. Then we've got Force India, who have earned a stay of execution due to Mallya selling part of his spirits venture to Diageo. Of course, there's Williams too and we'll hopefully get to see a resurgent Maldonado and fresh blood in Bottas.

Of course, all 2013 will really be is a precursor to all of the changes that will take place in 2014, so we should just enjoy the last blast of the current V8 era.

QuickYoda41 · Post by **QuickYoda41** » 22 Nov 2012, 20:45

eytl wrote:As for the rest of the field, drivers who deserve to be in the field on merit like Kobayashi and Kovalainen look like having to make way for the likes of Gutierrez and Van der Garde. While that potentially adds a little reject intrigue, it doesn't bode well for a thoroughly competitive midfield. HRT look like they're going down the clapper as well.

This is very worrying, indeed. I was actually going to ask in a seperate thread, but then here it is now: Can you remember drivers like Kobayashi net finding a seat at all? He is obviously talented, has a very unique and entertaining driving style, he's still young, but has 3 years' experience - whlch is a real rarity in today's midfield (or further down).

For the title challange issue, I'm not that worried. No one thought about this year to be this close. (especially the first half, of course)
I actually expect Raikkonen to build up a real title challange after this year's nearly there.

Post by **mario** » 22 Nov 2012, 20:46

eytl wrote:Ferrari haven't really come "out of the box" with a world-beating car in years. One has to suspect that they won't next year either, and Alonso will need to put in another superhuman effort just to stay in the hunt.

Given that Ferrari are still having systematic problems with their wind tunnel, I can't see them coming to the fore in 2013, particularly given that Alonso has reportedly been getting increasingly frustrated with the team for their lack of progress (an Italian journalist claimed that Alonso was complaining that the rear bodywork on his car hasn't been modified since May whilst Red Bull have been through multiple evolutions of their rear bodywork within a few months).
Ferrari are effectively having to rely on Toyota's wind tunnel in Cologne - although that seems to have reduced some of their problems, they can't rely on it forever, and there will be fewer areas to exploit in 2013 given the relatively stable rules. On the other hand, Pat Fry does seem to have had a positive influence on the team and there are still a number of decent designers there, so it is possible that, if Ferrari can sort out their technical issues, they will be able to make some headway next year - they will definitely be under a lot of pressure to do that.

I'd also have to agree that, on balance, McLaren looks like it doesn't have an especially strong line up - Button may be excellent when he is on form, but he also ended up making some terrible set up choices this season (Canada sticks out in particular). Even his recent form hasn't been especially striking - since the Belgian GP (the last race Button won), out of the top seven drivers, only Mark Webber has failed to score more points than Button has.
As for Perez, it may be that McLaren can mould him into shape next year and help him improve his performance - but given Button's comments about Perez needing time to adjust to McLaren, he may well not be up to speed until well into 2013, potentially too late to affect the title race.

That said, I do think that Lotus could possibly be a bit of a dark horse for 2013 for the WDC. They have shown their talent at developing a car and producing innovative features whilst being one of the most reliable teams on the grid, whilst Kimi seems to have been revitalised by his return to the sport and definitely looks consistent enough to challenge for a title (mathematically, at least, he was still in contention for the WDC until Abu Dhabi).
The additional sponsorship the team are getting from Coca Cola (and there may be more deals in the pipeline too) should help boost their coffers, so they might be capable of putting in a decent challenge to Red Bull at the start of 2013 at least (I would still expect Red Bull to pull away from them due to their superior resources).

LellaLombardi · Post by **LellaLombardi** » 22 Nov 2012, 20:57

There are things that are concerning, like Mercedes and possibly no Kobayashi but there are interesting things too.

Raikkonen being one. I don't like him but I would like to see him mount a title challenge.

Perez will be very intriguing. It sounds like McLaren are going to boot camp him over the winter as his fitness apparently falls short of their standards. I think next year will show us more clearly whether he is going to be a great and the future for McLaren.

I'm also excited about Hulkenberg at Sauber. Sauber seem to be really going places and Hulkenberg is the right choice to take them forward. If Kobayashi does retain his seat that will be a very strong driver line up.

So yeah, the title race may be dull but there should be some good entertainment further back

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 22 Nov 2012, 21:20

Think I'll worry about it more nearer the time.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 22 Nov 2012, 21:28

What? You don't like Vettel Wins Lol? Well, then you'd be well advised to go into hibernation for the next year. 2013 is pretty much going to be like 2004 (however if this leads to Force India and Lotus fighting for 2nd place in the WCC, I'd be amused).

TheBigJ · Post by **TheBigJ** » 22 Nov 2012, 21:42

Red Bull are just playing by a different set of rules to everyone else, constantly bending them. The sooner they are brought to justice the better. It seems to me all the other teams (that are part of Fota) have a gentleman's agreement to topple Red Bull next year by sharing information.

They are the most unsavoury winner since Bennetton...no Ferrari...no Brawn.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 22 Nov 2012, 22:03

Thank you Enoch. We're getting close to have a truly exciting season in 2013, all that remains now is a seasonal preview on the same line! :mrgreen:

girry · Post by **girry** » 22 Nov 2012, 22:07

@TheBigJ: Do you actually have an understanding of the technical rules, have actual information about the Red Bull car and know which of the rules Red Bull is breaking, and why FIA hasn't done anything about it? Or are you just forming an opinion based on their results/what some 'journalists' and blokes on a forum say about them?

Frankly, it slightly, no, very much annoys me to have half the f1 fans simply claiming 'Red Bull cheats' when they have just as much of a clue as I do, which is basically none.

(Especially, when used by those who complain that Pirelli degrades too much, then when Pirelli 'fix' it and we have another 2011 styled Vettel snoozefest again, their explanation to the boredom is 'Red Bull cheats'. Durgh.)

/rant

Shadaza · Post by **Shadaza** » 22 Nov 2012, 23:44

I seem to remember people thinking this season would be a Red Bull walk over and yet we ended up with seven different winners in seven races.
It is impossible to judge.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 22 Nov 2012, 23:50

If it is a Red Bull dominance, hopefully Webber can fight for the title as well, and have exciting races like in 2001.

DOSBoot · Post by **DOSBoot** » 23 Nov 2012, 00:55

JeremyMcClean wrote:If it is a Red Bull dominance, hopefully Webber can fight for the title as well, and have exciting races like in 2001.

This.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 23 Nov 2012, 01:53

Shadaza wrote:I seem to remember people thinking this season would be a Red Bull walk over and yet we ended up with seven different winners in seven races.
It is impossible to judge.

Actually, everyone expected a McLaren walkover after pre-season testing but instead, they've managed to find more and more creative ways of throwing away the championship. :lol:

Benetton · Post by **Benetton** » 23 Nov 2012, 12:46

Well, I think no one believed this season would have eight different winners so you can never tell.

Pirelli - Hopefully they won't becoming as conservative as they've been for the last 5 races.

RBR - Nothing new here. Mark is a year older and won't challenge Sebastian for the whole duration of the season, part of it maybe but not over 19-20 races.

Ferrari - Hasn't designed a world beater since 2008. Odds say they won't design one for next year either. Alonso has to outdrive again. Can challenge Vettel by better consistency and capitalizing of opportunities if they arise from, example Pirelli randomness. Domenicali doesn't seem to be the right man for the job of team principal though. LdM should can him.

McLaren - Whitmarsh seem undoing all the good Dennis did for the team, slowly but surely, a bit like Domenicali, who is no Jean Todt. I feel McLaren is on a slight decline. However, if Button finds the right car for him (as in 2011) he can challenge. Jenson needs to be more consistent though. Could fall behind Enstone in the Constructors championship as well.

Enstone - My dark horses for 2013. Kimi has shown he can challenge for the title next year, he should also has alot more input in the car for next year. If RoGro retains his speed and becomes more consistent than Enstone can challenge in the constructors as well.

Mercedes - We'll see. They should, and probably will, commit to 2014 very early.

Sauber - Hulkenberg could do very well. Top 10 in the drivers is not out of question for him.

pablo_h · Post by **pablo_h** » 23 Nov 2012, 13:00

I think the only thing that's going to stop Vettel in 2013 is reliability.
Hamilton will be nowhere, and I doubt Button and Perez will be serious threats most of the time.
It's going to come down to half decent cars from Ferrari and Lotus, and the consistancy of Alonso and Räikkönen to chip away when RBR has a problem with KERS or alternators for example, like they have this year.
It might even be easier for Alonso and Kimi to keep in touch next year because they will be coming 2nd rather than 3rd behind Hamilton in the McLaren.
Otherwise, Vettel will probably romp away with it I think (nothing wrong with him winning, it would just be boring as even his team mate can't challenge)

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 23 Nov 2012, 13:21

A German domination in the first part of a decade. I wonder where I've seen this before...

PS: Expect Vettel to do a failed comeback to F1 somewhere after 2020. :lol:

Backmarker · Post by **Backmarker** » 23 Nov 2012, 13:23

I for one look forward to the rejectful grid of Giedo van der Garde, Bruno Senna, Ma Qing Hua (when all those Chinese investors who are definitely going to buy HRT do it), Esteban Gutiérrez, Jules Bianchi etc.

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 23 Nov 2012, 17:55

Klon wrote:What? You don't like Vettel Wins Lol? Well, then you'd be well advised to go into hibernation for the next year. 2013 is pretty much going to be like 2004 (however if this leads to Force India and Lotus fighting for 2nd place in the WCC, I'd be amused).

If that means that Lotus win the 2014 and 2015 titles, and Force India win a race in 2015, I won't mind too much

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 23 Nov 2012, 18:17

Button, Raikkonen, Vettel, Webber, Alonso and Massa will all be in the hunt for the championship in 2013.

Whats the problem?

Minardi Man · Post by **Minardi Man** » 23 Nov 2012, 18:42

CoopsII wrote:Button, Raikkonen, Vettel, Webber, Alonso and Massa will all be in the hunt for the championship in 2013.

Whats the problem?

Surely not Massa?
Webber seems unlikely to me as well TBH.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 23 Nov 2012, 18:50

Minardi Man wrote:Surely not Massa?
Webber seems unlikely to me as well TBH.

They've both proven capable in the past. I disagree that Webber and Massa are automatically out of contention because of their team-mates. Their destiny is in their own hands.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 23 Nov 2012, 18:53

This is a good point. Since the rules aren't going to change that much, and with the facts raised up, why not think Red Bull would walk away next season? However, I'm skeptical. Let's keep hope and see what happens because you never know what's around the corner. I, for one, think:
-That Ferrari will finally make a good car from the outset.
-That Pérez can thrive at McLaren.
-That Mercedes will come good during all season.
-That Lotus might have something special in store.
-That Gutiérrez might be able to perform better than expected.

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 23 Nov 2012, 19:36

Yes, because Koba is out.

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 23 Nov 2012, 19:37

Dj_bereta wrote:Yes, because HRT is out.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 23 Nov 2012, 19:58

Enstone had bloody better make a great car next year or the entire year might as well be a write off.

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 23 Nov 2012, 21:39

kostas22 wrote:Enstone had bloody better make a great car next year or the entire year might as well be a write off.

I hope so too, and also hope that the Brackley car fails to impress

Post by **mario** » 23 Nov 2012, 21:48

CoopsII wrote:
Minardi Man wrote:Surely not Massa?
Webber seems unlikely to me as well TBH.

They've both proven capable in the past. I disagree that Webber and Massa are automatically out of contention because of their team-mates. Their destiny is in their own hands.

Massa could perhaps put together a halfway reasonable title challenge if he continued the current form that he is showing, although the issue would be whether he could then sustain that sort of form across the entire season (we saw how he struggled with his set up until Monaco, where he finally worked out how to set the suspension up in a way that suited him). Even allowing for the internal politics of Ferrari, Alonso's sheer consistency would in most likelihood carry him through the season ahead of Massa.
As for Webber, to be brutally honest I cannot see Red Bull wanting to commit enough resources to him for a full bore title challenge - they have made it clear that their commercial interests lie with Vettel instead of Webber, so they are going to concentrate their resources on that side of the garage rather than on Webber's side.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 24 Nov 2012, 08:57

mario wrote:As for Webber, to be brutally honest I cannot see Red Bull wanting to commit enough resources to him for a full bore title challenge - they have made it clear that their commercial interests lie with Vettel instead of Webber, so they are going to concentrate their resources on that side of the garage rather than on Webber's side.

You read far too much low quality media. Step away from the tabloids! As I said, if you read it properly, their destiny is in their own hands. Webber challenged before in the same team with the same politcal set-up so its fairly small-minded to write him off before the season has even begun.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 24 Nov 2012, 08:59

CoopsII wrote:
mario wrote:As for Webber, to be brutally honest I cannot see Red Bull wanting to commit enough resources to him for a full bore title challenge - they have made it clear that their commercial interests lie with Vettel instead of Webber, so they are going to concentrate their resources on that side of the garage rather than on Webber's side.

You read far too much low quality media. Step away from the tabloids! As I said, if you read it properly, their destiny is in their own hands. Webber challenged before in the same team with the same politcal set-up so its fairly small-minded to write him off before the season has even begun.

Actually, the political arena in Red Bull changed considerably during the course of 2010 when they basically admitted they were building the team around Vettel in the long run, despite Webber spending the better part of the year being their main title challenger.

McDuck · Post by **McDuck** » 24 Nov 2012, 13:13

There is certainly cause for concern in 2013 (and beyond.)

The truth is the sport isn't that healthy financially at the moment and most of the teams are making poorer decisions because of it.

Ferrari using TOYOTA'S wind tunnel and Pat Fry leading the charge to modernize/refresh their core infrastructure.

McLaren losing Vodafone sponsorship (and Mercedes financial backing) and signing a young pay driver to a multi-year deal, to potentially pave the way for Telmex sponsorship.

Brackley is still nowhere despite having manufacture backing for years.

Williams only employs pay drivers now.

Solid young drivers are getting bumped for younger unknown pay drivers.

The "new teams" are still racing at the back, still haven't won a point, and one won't be racing at all.

Sponsorship is scarce.

It just goes on and on.

I believe that all teams should be 3 car teams in 2013.

It just makes sense for all parties involved. It's good for the sport because there would be larger grids and more top drivers in better or decent cars. That creates more fan interest. More fan interest means more sponsorship and better track attendance. Smaller teams could take on MORE younger and/or pay drivers AND afford to develop the cars at the same time.

I'm honestly not seeing any downside to this.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 24 Nov 2012, 14:13

McDuck wrote:I'm honestly not seeing any downside to this.

Additional up-front costs for teams to do 50% extra racing?

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 24 Nov 2012, 14:15

CoopsII wrote:You read far too much low quality media. Step away from the tabloids!

Really? That's the *last* thing I'd accuse Mario of.

pasta_maldonado · Post by **pasta_maldonado** » 24 Nov 2012, 14:23

McDuck wrote:I believe that all teams should be 3 car teams in 2013.

That would be interesting, and something that I'd be intrigued to see, but not if that means Red Bull 1-2-3s all the time! :lol:

Post by **mario** » 24 Nov 2012, 15:11

Wizzie wrote:
CoopsII wrote:
mario wrote:As for Webber, to be brutally honest I cannot see Red Bull wanting to commit enough resources to him for a full bore title challenge - they have made it clear that their commercial interests lie with Vettel instead of Webber, so they are going to concentrate their resources on that side of the garage rather than on Webber's side.

You read far too much low quality media. Step away from the tabloids! As I said, if you read it properly, their destiny is in their own hands. Webber challenged before in the same team with the same politcal set-up so its fairly small-minded to write him off before the season has even begun.

Actually, the political arena in Red Bull changed considerably during the course of 2010 when they basically admitted they were building the team around Vettel in the long run, despite Webber spending the better part of the year being their main title challenger.

There are other practical considerations for Red Bull to take into account - Webber is currently 36 years old and the third oldest driver on the grid (which means that, with Schumacher retiring and De La Rosa probably out of a job if HRT fold, Webber would be the oldest driver on the grid in 2013). Realistically, Webber only has a few years left at most - Horner has hinted at that by referring to Webber being "in a different phase of his career" - which limits his marketing potential for the team, whereas Vettel, at 25 and committed to the team for longer than Webber is, has a far greater pulling power for the sponsors.

That youthful image of Vettel also suits the image of Red Bull much more than Webber's does - something that Mateschitz has referred to in the past - and it is worth noting that a number of Red Bull's current commercial deals with sponsors rest in part on Vettel's success (the deal that they have with Infiniti, for example, trades exclusively off Vettel's image as a successful champion).

That is not to say that Webber is being cut out of things altogether within Red Bull - for a start, as a popular figure within the sport Red Bull would not want a repeat of the backlashes against the team when it appeared that Webber was being treated harshly (such as after the 2010 and 2011 British GP's). It is more that, overall, the potential return from Webber's success is likely to be more limited than from seeing Vettel prosper - and as an operation with a keen interest in maximising their marketing, that will inevitably play some consideration in their decisions, both consciously and subconsciously.

Post by **Ataxia** » 24 Nov 2012, 15:24

mario wrote:
Wizzie wrote:
CoopsII wrote:You read far too much low quality media. Step away from the tabloids! As I said, if you read it properly, their destiny is in their own hands. Webber challenged before in the same team with the same politcal set-up so its fairly small-minded to write him off before the season has even begun.

Actually, the political arena in Red Bull changed considerably during the course of 2010 when they basically admitted they were building the team around Vettel in the long run, despite Webber spending the better part of the year being their main title challenger.

There are other practical considerations for Red Bull to take into account - Webber is currently 36 years old and the third oldest driver on the grid (which means that, with Schumacher retiring and De La Rosa probably out of a job if HRT fold, Webber would be the oldest driver on the grid in 2013). Realistically, Webber only has a few years left at most - Horner has hinted at that by referring to Webber being "in a different phase of his career" - which limits his marketing potential for the team, whereas Vettel, at 25 and committed to the team for longer than Webber is, has a far greater pulling power for the sponsors.

That youthful image of Vettel also suits the image of Red Bull much more than Webber's does - something that Mateschitz has referred to in the past - and it is worth noting that a number of Red Bull's current commercial deals with sponsors rest in part on Vettel's success (the deal that they have with Infiniti, for example, trades exclusively off Vettel's image as a successful champion).

That is not to say that Webber is being cut out of things altogether within Red Bull - for a start, as a popular figure within the sport Red Bull would not want a repeat of the backlashes against the team when it appeared that Webber was being treated harshly (such as after the 2010 and 2011 British GP's). It is more that, overall, the potential return from Webber's success is likely to be more limited than from seeing Vettel prosper - and as an operation with a keen interest in maximising their marketing, that will inevitably play some consideration in their decisions, both consciously and subconsciously.

I think you've forgotten one thing, mario...Mark's a Canberra Milk Kid. :lol:

pablo_h · Post by **pablo_h** » 24 Nov 2012, 16:59

fjackdaw wrote:
CoopsII wrote:You read far too much low quality media. Step away from the tabloids!

Really? That's the *last* thing I'd accuse Mario of.

Yeah Mario is pretty much 'on the ball' so to speak, a credit to this forum and one of the main reasons why I visit here

Vettel not qualifying good right now...
edit: wrong thread for Brazil qual talk...