The 2013 Chinese GP Thread

[TomWazzleshaw]

There are a few
engineers at Ferrari who can trace their roots back into
Minardi, and a few design features from old Minardi's have
cropped up on the F138 (the rear wing features a slot in the
endplates that features on the last generation of Minardi's, and there is a suggestion that the
front pullrod suspension of the
F2012 and F138 might have also been designed by a former
Minardi engineer).

If I remember rightly, Gustav Brunner, who penned the Minardi PS01, complete with front pullrod suspension, also had a hand in the F2012, with similar suspension configuration. I can't say about the F138 though, as far as I'm aware, Brunner was acting as a consultant last year.

The general rule of thumb with Brunner though is the quality of work is inversely proportional to the amount of money he has to work with, so whether he's been a help or a hindrance to Ferrari is entirely up for debate.

[DanielPT]

I do agree that, perhaps, the team are trying to shift the blame for some of their own shortcomings onto the drivers - I would say that part of the problem is that, because Toro Rosso are now effectively dependent on Red Bull Technology (an organisation effectively only set up by Red Bull to get around the issue of customer cars), their own in house design capabilities seem to have been progressively hollowed out over the years.
The issue of not being able to share some components has hindered them in a few ways too - having to make their own gearbox is drawing away some resources that could be used elsewhere, which seems to be the primary reason why they want to switch to a Renault engine and use the Red Bull drivetrain (although the Toro Rosso design is reportedly quite clever in some ways, as the connection with the rear suspension has been designed in a way that makes it slightly easier to make adjustments to the suspension that some rivals).

It is true that whole costumer car struggle have, perhaps, been at a the bottom of Toro Rosso predicament. But since then, they have been re-enforcing their car building capabilities, sharing, of course, some technology from the Red Bull Technology organization.
It is not that they have been prevented of sharing know-how. I wonder though, if that engine switch from Toro Rosso will bring back the days where STR tended to be more similar than not to RBR. After all, that is why Red Bull set up the organization in the first place.

Some of their staff have drifted up to Red Bull (it seems that a number of them moved from Toro Rosso to RBR along with Vettel), whilst a few other teams have picked up engineers from them too. There are a few engineers at Ferrari who can trace their roots back into Minardi, and a few design features from old Minardi's have cropped up on the F138 (the rear wing features a slot in the endplates that features on the last generation of Minardi's, and there is a suggestion that the front pullrod suspension of the F2012 and F138 might have also been designed by a former Minardi engineer).

It might be another issue, that merry-go-round of staff within Toro Rosso. Although, they have shown to be serious on that front with the signing of the "midfield magic maker" James Key. Unless this is just a small step towards a big Red Bull position somewhere down the line for him. Still, it shows that Toro Rosso are not only paying attention to the staff market as well they can lure some of the big men out there to work with them. It looks like a strategy to be more than a showcase for the next Vettel.

[Divina_Galica]

What do we make of the noises coming out of McLaren saying they fixed their car? Is this true or PR bile?

They haven't said they've fixed it. They said they figured out what's wrong with it. And frankly, at this point, I'm taking nothing for granted with McLaren.

Agreed - they now think they know what's wrong.

Hopefully they will be able to actually fix the problems quickly now

DG

[Londoner]

WTF?

I honestly haven't a clue what's going on at Red Bull anymore.

[Klon]

WTF?

Well, Mr. Vettel (or anyone in his environment) apparentely pulled out his retracted balls and now he does what he should have done immediately after the race: apologise to the team for not following their orders but telling Webber to




Deal With It

[andrew2209]

If Webber loses the championship by less than 6 points, then I'd love to see the s**tstorm that would occur at Red Bull.

[mario]

I do agree that, perhaps, the team are trying to shift the blame for some of their own shortcomings onto the drivers - I would say that part of the problem is that, because Toro Rosso are now effectively dependent on Red Bull Technology (an organisation effectively only set up by Red Bull to get around the issue of customer cars), their own in house design capabilities seem to have been progressively hollowed out over the years.
The issue of not being able to share some components has hindered them in a few ways too - having to make their own gearbox is drawing away some resources that could be used elsewhere, which seems to be the primary reason why they want to switch to a Renault engine and use the Red Bull drivetrain (although the Toro Rosso design is reportedly quite clever in some ways, as the connection with the rear suspension has been designed in a way that makes it slightly easier to make adjustments to the suspension that some rivals).

It is true that whole costumer car struggle have, perhaps, been at a the bottom of Toro Rosso predicament. But since then, they have been re-enforcing their car building capabilities, sharing, of course, some technology from the Red Bull Technology organization.
It is not that they have been prevented of sharing know-how. I wonder though, if that engine switch from Toro Rosso will bring back the days where STR tended to be more similar than not to RBR. After all, that is why Red Bull set up the organization in the first place.

That seems to be the idea behind the move - Toro Rosso's future cars would effectively feature the entire back end off of the latest Red Bull (with the engine, energy recovery systems and transmission all the same, one would presume that the gearbox casing and rear suspension mounting points would also be identical).
I wouldn't be surprised if such a move caused unease amongst other teams - there were rumours in late 2011 that Red Bull were effectively passing on information from their blown diffusers to Toro Rosso in an attempt to push them further up the field and therefore earn more money from FOM in the process, something which was pushing the restrictions on customer cars to the limit. If the junior team effectively had the same rear end as the parent car, discerning whether or not technology sharing (and possible breaches of the limits on customer cars) was occurring would be an awful lot harder...

WTF?

I honestly haven't a clue what's going on at Red Bull anymore.

It is also worth noting that Mateschitz is being quoted as saying that the team are no longer going to apply team orders, so ostensibly the two drivers are now free to race each other on track. You have to wonder, though, whether Mateschitz is saying that because he knows that the team has now got to the point where its drivers are not listening to them and issuing team orders would be pointless anyway.

If Webber loses the championship by less than 6 points, then I'd love to see the s**tstorm that would occur at Red Bull.

Especially if he ended up losing it to somebody other than Vettel - if it was Vettel that took another title, at least the team could celebrate its success even if it came in acrimonious circumstances. On the other hand, if it was the case that they lost to another driver - and especially if it was Alonso, given how bitter their battles with him have been in recent years - then the loss would probably be all the more bitter for them.

[roblo97]

If Webber wins the championship by more than 6 points, then I'd love to see the s**tstorm that would occur from Vettel.

fixed

[Aerospeed]

If Webber loses the championship by less than 6 points, then I'd love to see the s**tstorm that would occur at Red Bull.

Especially if he ended up losing it to somebody other than Vettel - if it was Vettel that took another title, at least the team could celebrate its success even if it came in acrimonious circumstances. On the other hand, if it was the case that they lost to another driver - and especially if it was Alonso, given how bitter their battles with him have been in recent years - then the loss would probably be all the more bitter for them.

Bingo. The best reason why teams shouldn't be messing around with team orders in the first place.

[Gerudo Dragon]

Wow, even after being a dick, Vettel's still crying.

[Archie2K]

It is also worth noting that Mateschitz is being quoted as saying that the team are no longer going to apply team orders, so ostensibly the two drivers are now free to race each other on track. You have to wonder, though, whether Mateschitz is saying that because he knows that the team has now got to the point where its drivers are not listening to them and issuing team orders would be pointless anyway.

Sounds good to me. Their battle was the best thing about Malaysia. Bring it on.

[UncreativeUsername37]

Wow, even after being a dick, Vettel's still crying.

I can't believe that pun they did at the beginning. Very of them.

[CoopsII]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106631

[Jocke1]

I'll tell you one thing, though. After having just watched the drivers thursday press conference, I realize Webber has bigger balls than I thought exposing his neck like that, knowing of the danger it invites.

[mario]

If Webber loses the championship by less than 6 points, then I'd love to see the s**tstorm that would occur at Red Bull.

Especially if he ended up losing it to somebody other than Vettel - if it was Vettel that took another title, at least the team could celebrate its success even if it came in acrimonious circumstances. On the other hand, if it was the case that they lost to another driver - and especially if it was Alonso, given how bitter their battles with him have been in recent years - then the loss would probably be all the more bitter for them.

Bingo. The best reason why teams shouldn't be messing around with team orders in the first place.

Or, at the very least, being careful about implementing them this early on in the season.

On another note, whilst things are still seemingly simmering over at Red Bull, the situation at Mercedes seems to be a lot calmer. Rosberg has admitted that part of the reason why he snapped back at Ross over the decision was because the team had not discussed the matter before the race, so he was rather thrown to be suddenly ordered to hold position during the race. Nevertheless, it now seems that Rosberg is much happier on reflection given that the team seem to have assured him that he still has equal status to Hamilton and would benefit from similar team orders in such a situation. Furthermore, unlike over at Red Bull, it seems that Ross is still able to assert his authority over the drivers, with Rosberg stating that he would obey the team orders even if he didn't necessarily agree with them.
As an aside, though, perhaps there might be a different problem at Mercedes involving Hamilton - it appears that he did not attend any of the pre-race media sessions due to illness and is currently confined to his hotel room. The exact reason isn't entirely clear, though, although a member of McLaren appears to have suggested that he is suffering from some sort of allergic reaction. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106627

[DanielPT]

As an aside, though, perhaps there might be a different problem at Mercedes involving Hamilton - it appears that he did not attend any of the pre-race media sessions due to illness and is currently confined to his hotel room. The exact reason isn't entirely clear, though, although a member of McLaren appears to have suggested that he is suffering from some sort of allergic reaction. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106627

Hum? How does McLaren knows this? I sense sabotage!

[McJaggers]

Well, he's more honest that he has been in the past. I don't buy the whole 'respect for team decisions' thing. Just consider amount of times he's pushed the car at late stages just to beef up his tally of fastest laps.

I can see why it's not in his interest to help Mark. There's been a mexican standoff for some time with those two.

Who shot first? Doesn't matter.

Just make sure the camera's roll when this blows up.

As an aside, though, perhaps there might be a different problem at Mercedes involving Hamilton - it appears that he did not attend any of the pre-race media sessions due to illness and is currently confined to his hotel room. The exact reason isn't entirely clear, though, although a member of McLaren appears to have suggested that he is suffering from some sort of allergic reaction. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106627

Hum? How does McLaren knows this? I sense sabotage!

I suspect when he calls in sick, he still speed dials Martin Whitmarsh out of habit.

[mario]

As an aside, though, perhaps there might be a different problem at Mercedes involving Hamilton - it appears that he did not attend any of the pre-race media sessions due to illness and is currently confined to his hotel room. The exact reason isn't entirely clear, though, although a member of McLaren appears to have suggested that he is suffering from some sort of allergic reaction. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106627

Hum? How does McLaren knows this? I sense sabotage!

Perhaps it was their way of "thanking" Hamilton for stopping in their pit box in Malaysia
How they found out is anybody's guess, though it was supposedly one of their PR team who was responsible for that bit of news (and you would expect those who deal in pit lane gossip to be fairly abreast of those sorts of developments).

Well, he's more honest that he has been in the past. I don't buy the whole 'respect for team decisions' thing. Just consider amount of times he's pushed the car at late stages just to beef up his tally of fastest laps.

I can see why it's not in his interest to help Mark. There's been a mexican standoff for some time with those two.

Who shot first? Doesn't matter.

Just make sure the camera's roll when this blows up.

It doesn't help that Vettel has been indicating that his move in Malaysia was revenge on Webber for not helping him in the past, particularly in the Brazilian GP last year:

Vettel was asked if he was getting revenge for Webber being less than helpful in last year's title-deciding race in Brazil, when Webber appeared to be obstructive twice despite being told by the team to help Vettel in his championship battle with Ferrari's Fernando Alonso. The German replied: "Probably you could say indirectly so."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22106490

Most of the other teams up and down the paddock must be looking on at this with a little wry smile (especially over at Mercedes - the way that they have handled the arguments over team orders in comparison to Red Bull couldn't be more marked) - whilst relations at the team haven't been especially good, it looks like they are well and truly wrecked now. You have to wonder whether or not there will be another clash between the two drivers on track fairly soon, a la Turkey 2010, and whether the team might pay the price for that sooner rather than later.
Equally, you can bet that the cameras will be rolling if things really get acrimonious over at Red Bull - Bernie must be beaming about the amount of column inches that have been dedicated to this spat over the past few weeks, and they are steadily increasing with the latest comments coming out of the paddock from these two.

[Wallio]

Seriously, as a HUGE Vettel fan, I have to tell ya Seb, STFU! Seriously, what is the point of this? Are you trying to mentally-bury Webber Senna-style? Pretty sure you did that already. This just makes you look like the spoiled brat people claim you are. Shut up and race! Horner needs to slap that boy!

[DanielPT]

Seriously, as a HUGE Vettel fan, I have to tell ya Seb, STFU! Seriously, what is the point of this? Are you trying to mentally-bury Webber Senna-style? Pretty sure you did that already. This just makes you look like the spoiled brat people claim you are. Shut up and race! Horner needs to slap that boy!

I am now starting to side with stramala on this. If it was to do what he is doing right now, Vettel should have told Webber to shut up and deal with it right from the beginning instead of going with half-hearted apologies, then sort of backtrack and finally not moving on by still rumbling about it. That is probably the worst way to go with!



Well, he is just a kid after all...

[dr-baker]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106631

Despite not regretting his actions, Vettel said he stood by his decision to apologise to Red Bull.

"I was racing, and as a racing driver I was solely focused on winning the race and I got a call on the radio, which I heard, but I didn't understand at the time," he said.

"I should have understood, that is why I apologised to the team - because in my action I put myself above the team. Whether you believe me or not is up to you.

But he shrugged off suggestions that he should have received a formal punishment from Red Bull.

"Maybe it is a little bit of a dreamland that you all live in, but what do you expect to happen?" said Vettel. "Make a suggestion!"

Smacks of total arrogance to me. Makes him out to think that he believes he is bigger and more important than the team. No respect whatsoever, whatever he is saying about having respect. I have about as much respect for him as he has for team orders..

[Salamander]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106631

Despite not regretting his actions, Vettel said he stood by his decision to apologise to Red Bull.

"I was racing, and as a racing driver I was solely focused on winning the race and I got a call on the radio, which I heard, but I didn't understand at the time," he said.

"I should have understood, that is why I apologised to the team - because in my action I put myself above the team. Whether you believe me or not is up to you.

But he shrugged off suggestions that he should have received a formal punishment from Red Bull.

"Maybe it is a little bit of a dreamland that you all live in, but what do you expect to happen?" said Vettel. "Make a suggestion!"

Smacks of total arrogance to me. Makes him out to think that he believes he is bigger and more important than the team. No respect whatsoever, whatever he is saying about having respect. I have about as much respect for him as he has for team orders..

I think Vettel regrets apologising on the podium back in Malaysia now that he's had time to think about. But the thing is that he did it at all. As has been stated numerous times, neither Senna nor Schumacher made any apologies for their win-at-all-costs attitude. And that is why they are among the greatest, and why Vettel will never join them (at least, in my opinion).

[Ataxia]

Red Bull need to lay down the law on this one. The ball's definitely in their court; they've got the best car and the best technical team.

If I was a higher-up there, I'd be telling Vettel now that toeing the Red Bull line will be his best chance of winning races and championships, and if he fails to do so then he can look elsewhere for a race seat. Drivers are expendable. Red Bull can then entice someone like Raikkonen, Hulkenberg or someone of that ilk who is hungry for success.

The only party that can lose out of this situation is Vettel, really. Maybe RB would end up with the reputation that they can't control their drivers, but their setup can obviously make up for that.

[mario]

Seriously, as a HUGE Vettel fan, I have to tell ya Seb, STFU! Seriously, what is the point of this? Are you trying to mentally-bury Webber Senna-style? Pretty sure you did that already. This just makes you look like the spoiled brat people claim you are. Shut up and race! Horner needs to slap that boy!

I am now starting to side with stramala on this. If it was to do what he is doing right now, Vettel should have told Webber to shut up and deal with it right from the beginning instead of going with half-hearted apologies, then sort of backtrack and finally not moving on by still rumbling about it. That is probably the worst way to go with!

Well, he is just a kid after all...

The combination of youth and considerable success in a very short period of time is potentially very dangerous, and would be enough to go to the head of most, I'd wager.

Bear in mind that, had Alonso won the title in 2012, he'd have been the youngest triple world champion in the history of the sport, and he is six years older than Vettel - which puts in perspective how quickly Vettel's success has come. In 2011, thanks to Newey's work, he put in one of the most crushingly dominant performances over a season in the entire history of the sport, his success rate puts him amongst, and indeed ahead, some of the greats drivers of the sport, whilst he now looks to be in a position where he might be able to make it four back to back WDC's by the age of 26 (to put that in perspective, Schumacher, the last driver to show this level of dominance, had only just won his first title by that age).
On top of that, you have Bernie Ecclestone as a personal friend of his and talking him up as a driver who could obliterate the records the Schumacher established - records that few thought could ever be beaten - plus the most successful designer in the history of the sport on your side and several figures within the team that have a strong emotional bias towards you.

Now, whilst that does not excuse him from criticism - indeed, I've had my share of harsh words for him over the years - at the same time, if I was in Vettel's position and presented with that level of success and adoration, can I deny that I wouldn't develop something of a sense of entitlement? I am not entirely sure that I wouldn't have developed some of those vices myself.

I have to agree, though, that Vettel's comments here, perhaps misguided by youth, are probably about the worst things he could say in this situation. If he continued to show contrition for what he did in Malaysia, then that might garner sympathy with those that felt he abused the trust of the team and assuage their criticism; alternatively, had he been harsher and more ruthless from the start, then he'd probably have the support of the old "traditionalists" who dislike team orders and have the "all or nothing at all" approach to racing. In trying to appeal to all sides in this situation by changing his message, though, he's ended up annoying both sides by effectively contradicting himself.

[eytl]

Now, whilst that does not excuse him from criticism - indeed, I've had my share of harsh words for him over the years - at the same time, if I was in Vettel's position and presented with that level of success and adoration, can I deny that I wouldn't develop something of a sense of entitlement? I am not entirely sure that I wouldn't have developed some of those vices myself.

I have to agree, though, that Vettel's comments here, perhaps misguided by youth, are probably about the worst things he could say in this situation. If he continued to show contrition for what he did in Malaysia, then that might garner sympathy with those that felt he abused the trust of the team and assuage their criticism; alternatively, had he been harsher and more ruthless from the start, then he'd probably have the support of the old "traditionalists" who dislike team orders and have the "all or nothing at all" approach to racing. In trying to appeal to all sides in this situation by changing his message, though, he's ended up annoying both sides by effectively contradicting himself.

Mario's said what I was going to say. This is deeply disappointing from Vettel. Did he mean his earlier apologies or not? I presume he's trying to tread a fine line but he's managing it with the sophistication of an elephant carrying a sledgehammer.

I agree that there's a sense of entitlement there born of all the success he has achieved and the protection he has had within the Red Bull ranks, but I also sense a degree of insecurity and identity crisis. Is he going to be the nice-guy team-player who sincerely apologised for what happened at Sepang, or a self-centred tough-guy? For the first time I think he's being asked that question and he's unable to just sail through holding the two personas in balance as he's broadly been able to for the last few years. If there's any degree of self-questioning, I wonder if that will also infiltrate his driving. Alternatively, if he's choosing the tough-guy path, I wonder if that might lead to some over-driving as he subconsciously feels he now needs to live out that persona?

(As an aside, I sense a bit of Kim Jong-un about Vettel. Behind all the belligerent talk lies a fair bit of uncertainty and insecurity.)

From that perspective things are more settled for Webber. Whilst Sepang would have been a massive disappointment and an apparent injustice, it doesn't inherently change what he understood about himself, his place in the team - he just had it rammed down his throat. I sense he's got a clearer mind - even joking in the press conference about his (dodgy) new haircut.

[Backmarker]

Kevin Magnussen is third driver for McLaren at this grand prix. We could have another Magnussen driving for McLaren! Oliver Turvey seems to be lined up to be the next Gary Paffett, maybe Kevin Magnussen will actually make it to F1.

[CoopsII]

As an aside, I sense a bit of Kim Jong-un about Vettel.

"Is that cake?"

[Jocke1]

As an aside, I sense a bit of Kim Jong-un about Vettel.

"Is that cake?"

Hang on!
Everything is supposed to be equal within the Red Bull team, correct?
Then why this?



First of all, it looks ridiculous. I have not seen this particular advertising space before this weekend, actually.
But why are they not on the same side? Obviously the team has chosen to give Vettel the right side and Webber the left, as seen from our perspective.

Does this mean something? What are they implying here?



Horner:

"From a Red Bull perspective, of course we want to see drivers race and compete equally."

But not dress equally, Christian?

[Salamander]

Yeah, suuuuuure it has...

[CoopsII]

Yeah, suuuuuure it has...

In a sense though, Horner is correct but only because I think most would agree his leadership was fairly weak to begin with. It doesnt take alot of managerial clout to side with your favourite, the trick is to get the best out of both without either feeling demotivated.

I think its only Webbers Aussie grit which has kept him going. Oh, that and the fact its a dream job and he'd be a right dill to quit.

[Jocke1]

@ Ma Qinghua being almost 7 seconds behind Rosberg in FP1, and 1,5 sec behind van der Garde.
Despite the fact he was among the leaders in laps driven (20).

[mario]

On another note, it sounds as if some of the drivers are really unhappy with Pirelli's decision to bring the soft tyre for this race - Hamilton has described the softs as "disintegrating" and said that the tyres were unsuitable, Vettel was complaining that he was picking up so many marbles on his tyres that it was causing him a lot of problems with vibrations (with Kimi also complaining about tyre pick up and graining, particularly with the front left tyre) and Button suffered from the front left delaminating altogether when he suffered from a severe lock up late in the session.
Predictably enough, Pirelli have brushed off their criticisms, but it sounds as if the soft tyres are going to be very problematic this weekend, particularly on high fuel - I can imagine, therefore, that there could be quite a few drivers that choose to sit out Q3 if they expect to start in the lower part of the top 10, because it sounds as if, with the medium tyres lasting quite well by comparison (most drivers managing 20+ laps on those), that running on the mediums early on will be the preferred option.

[DanielPT]

On another note, it sounds as if some of the drivers are really unhappy with Pirelli's decision to bring the soft tyre for this race - Hamilton has described the softs as "disintegrating" and said that the tyres were unsuitable, Vettel was complaining that he was picking up so many marbles on his tyres that it was causing him a lot of problems with vibrations (with Kimi also complaining about tyre pick up and graining, particularly with the front left tyre) and Button suffered from the front left delaminating altogether when he suffered from a severe lock up late in the session.
Predictably enough, Pirelli have brushed off their criticisms, but it sounds as if the soft tyres are going to be very problematic this weekend, particularly on high fuel - I can imagine, therefore, that there could be quite a few drivers that choose to sit out Q3 if they expect to start in the lower part of the top 10, because it sounds as if, with the medium tyres lasting quite well by comparison (most drivers managing 20+ laps on those), that running on the mediums early on will be the preferred option.

I think such gap between the softs and mediums is ridiculous. Ok we can accept a qualifying tyre that works differently from the actual racing tyre, but to force those in the top-10 shoot-out to start the race with then is, quite frankly, stupid. And engineered, like CarlosFerreira said in other thread.

[Shizuka]

:lol: @ Ma Qinghua being almost 7 seconds behind Rosberg in FP1, and 1,5 sec behind van der Garde.
Despite the fact he was among the leaders in laps driven (20).

So he would have been outside the 107%. However, not actually racing the car throughout the season, it is forgivable - to some extent. 1.5 behind GvdG however, is a few tenths much.

[DemocalypseNow]

Even from the very beginning, I had never understood why Christian Horner was chosen to be team principal of Red Bull Racing. What qualificaitons did he have?! He was a rich boy who was able to fund his own F3000 team, and apparently by making himself team principal of that for a few years, suddenly he was F1 calibre? Even after all these years, he is hopelessly out of his depth.

I said it immediately after China and I'll say it again. He should be sacked. He needs replaced by someone that's a tougher nut to crack. Someone in the Ron Dennis mould. It's not a reference to age, it's a reference to style. They can hire another team principal under 40 if they really want, as long as said person isn't the kitchen sponge of a leader they have at the moment.

[mario]

Even from the very beginning, I had never understood why Christian Horner was chosen to be team principal of Red Bull Racing. What qualificaitons did he have?! He was a rich boy who was able to fund his own F3000 team, and apparently by making himself team principal of that for a few years, suddenly he was F1 calibre? Even after all these years, he is hopelessly out of his depth.

I said it immediately after China and I'll say it again. He should be sacked. He needs replaced by someone that's a tougher nut to crack. Someone in the Ron Dennis mould. It's not a reference to age, it's a reference to style. They can hire another team principal under 40 if they really want, as long as said person isn't the kitchen sponge of a leader they have at the moment.

I don't think that the problem is just Horner, though (although I do agree that, overall, his leadership does seem to leave much to be desired) - it is worth bearing in mind that Newey is also very influential in deciding what happens on track (being able to have more influence on the running of the team, as well as its technical development, was exactly why Newey left McLaren, where Ron refused to give him those powers, and equally why he left Williams, where he had a similar dispute with Sir Frank, for Red Bull). The "multi 21" order, which was supposed to set the finishing order, is rumoured to have been given by Newey, not by Horner - and Newey is one of those figures in the paddock who can command considerably more respect than Horner (and it was also notable that, whilst Horner might have showed more displeasure than he let on at the time, that Newey was visibly angry with Vettel after the race).

The interesting question is who Red Bull could call upon to replace Horner in that situation. Ross Brawn is perhaps one of the few people who could possibly take over the role and impose himself in just that matter, but if the results of the team considerably improve this year (as is eminently possible given how Rosberg and Hamilton seem to be doing so far), might Mercedes decide to hand onto him? Perhaps they could look to pinch Key from their sister team instead?

[DanielPT]

I don't think that the problem is just Horner, though (although I do agree that, overall, his leadership does seem to leave much to be desired) - it is worth bearing in mind that Newey is also very influential in deciding what happens on track (being able to have more influence on the running of the team, as well as its technical development, was exactly why Newey left McLaren, where Ron refused to give him those powers, and equally why he left Williams, where he had a similar dispute with Sir Frank, for Red Bull). The "multi 21" order, which was supposed to set the finishing order, is rumoured to have been given by Newey, not by Horner - and Newey is one of those figures in the paddock who can command considerably more respect than Horner (and it was also notable that, whilst Horner might have showed more displeasure than he let on at the time, that Newey was visibly angry with Vettel after the race).

The interesting question is who Red Bull could call upon to replace Horner in that situation. Ross Brawn is perhaps one of the few people who could possibly take over the role and impose himself in just that matter, but if the results of the team considerably improve this year (as is eminently possible given how Rosberg and Hamilton seem to be doing so far), might Mercedes decide to hand onto him? Perhaps they could look to pinch Key from their sister team instead?

Well, in our Toro Rosso discussion I had suggested that James Key could be staying there as a stepping stone on his way to Red Bull. The biggest problem now, it seems, is that Newey and Horner have a deal between them to work together. How this works I don't know but I have seen at different places this small piece of information. If this deal is a thing that both gentleman are very willing to oblige, they it would be very difficult for Red Bull to replace Horner with someone else without also having to boot out Newey and we all know Red Bull wouldn't want that.

From the looks of it, Red Bull are currently 'stuck' with Horner and this might explain the presence of such figures like Helmut Marko on the background that steer Red Bull into Vettel staunch defence and other farcical positions. Despite this, Horner still has some power since it must be because of him that Mark is still driving for Red Bull as Marko had some harsh words about Mark and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the older man was a happy person in the day Webber leaves RBR.

[Wallio]

Even from the very beginning, I had never understood why Christian Horner was chosen to be team principal of Red Bull Racing. What qualificaitons did he have?! He was a rich boy who was able to fund his own F3000 team, and apparently by making himself team principal of that for a few years, suddenly he was F1 calibre? Even after all these years, he is hopelessly out of his depth.

I said it immediately after China and I'll say it again. He should be sacked. He needs replaced by someone that's a tougher nut to crack. Someone in the Ron Dennis mould. It's not a reference to age, it's a reference to style. They can hire another team principal under 40 if they really want, as long as said person isn't the kitchen sponge of a leader they have at the moment.

I agree 100%. He's lost the team. He has no control anymore. Its a circus.

[DemocalypseNow]

I just realised I wrote China when I really meant Malaysia.

[Wallio]

I just realised I wrote China when I really meant Malaysia.

And I quoted you and didn't even notice!