What If?

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 13 May 2013, 08:50

All these Adams puns are just Panis-ful. Alliot need to grow up.

Look how Badoer some of them are getting.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 13 May 2013, 09:22

To save us all from the bad puns, here's one for you:

During a segment for the Spanish GP on Sky, Mark Webber mentioned that he initially signed for only the first three races of the 2002 season with Minardi. What if Paul Stoddart didn't renew Webber's contract after the first three races of 2002?

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 13 May 2013, 11:23

Wizzie wrote:To save us all from the bad puns, here's one for you:

During a segment for the Spanish GP on Sky, Mark Webber mentioned that he initially signed for only the first three races of the 2002 season with Minardi. What if Paul Stoddart didn't renew Webber's contract after the first three races of 2002?

Well, Stoddart would have gotten a royal beating from the press, if we're going to assume he still scored points in Australia. In any case, the team probably would have hired some pay driver and gone about normally in theit merry way.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 13 May 2013, 13:40

Wizzie wrote: What if Paul Stoddart didn't renew Webber's contract after the first three races of 2002?

Hakkinen would make a glorious comeback, only missing three races.

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 13 May 2013, 15:31

What If Adrian Newey stayed in Indycar?

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 13 May 2013, 20:24

What if Newey joined Jaaaaag midway through 2001?

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 14 May 2013, 01:47

darkapprentice77 wrote:What if Adrian Newey stayed in Indycar?

Then he would have aided more people to winning the Indy 500.

takagi_for_the_win wrote:What if Newey joined Jaaaaag midway through 2001?

Then Jaguar may have won the FIA Formula 1 World Championship

Seems like a plausible scenario.

David AGS · Post by **David AGS** » 15 May 2013, 01:07

Wizzie wrote:To save us all from the bad puns, here's one for you:

During a segment for the Spanish GP on Sky, Mark Webber mentioned that he initially signed for only the first three races of the 2002 season with Minardi. What if Paul Stoddart didn't renew Webber's contract after the first three races of 2002?

Maybe future dutch star Christijian Albers, who did race in Stoddarts F3000 team, and would have had a decent amount of backing from Holland. He was slightly linked to the drive in 2001. Possibly Tomas Enge, who at that time was highly rated and bought money too. Justin Wilson and Anthony Davidson would all have been in the frame. I would think pay drivers would have been priority, but Webber didnt bring much cash at all, just 1 personal sponsor who was on his overall (Telstra) which were with him for a very long time.

Post by **kevinbotz** » 15 May 2013, 11:09

This one's probably been asked already, but I was wondering...

What if Williams had kept Button on for 2001 instead of opting for Montoya?

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 15 May 2013, 14:01

kevinbotz wrote:This one's probably been asked already, but I was wondering...

What if Williams had kept Button on for 2001 instead of opting for Montoya?

Button would've won the 2003 World Championship because he makes less stupid mistakes. Maybe...

Post by **Ataxia** » 15 May 2013, 14:09

I've got a couple of Coulthard scenarios...

1) What if DC stayed at Williams for 1996?

2) What if Sebastian Vettel flopped in 2008, leaving DC to carry on at Red Bull for 2009?

Post by **mario** » 15 May 2013, 18:52

Ataxia wrote:I've got a couple of Coulthard scenarios...

1) What if DC stayed at Williams for 1996?

2) What if Sebastian Vettel flopped in 2008, leaving DC to carry on at Red Bull for 2009?

For point 1, I expect that, given that Coulthard would have had more experience than Villeneuve, Hill might have found him tougher to beat than Jacques, although Hill might have still won out given that he was the more experienced driver of the two. I still think that, in the longer term, Coulthard would probably have wanted to head to McLaren - when asked about his decision to move to McLaren, he did say "In the long run it was the right decision, but I made the move a few years too early", suggesting that he was aiming to move there in the long term anyway.

As for what might have happened if Coulthard had stayed on one more year, I think that, given the performance of the RB5, he probably would have taken a win that season or, at the very least, a fair few podium finishes. Having a more competitive car might have lead him to raise his game a bit but, given that he is six years older than Webber, I'd expect Webber would have had a slight edge on him and been the one pushing for the WDC. However, even if Coulthard had stayed on for 2009, I don't think he'd have stayed on for 2010 - if Vettel has failed to meet expectations whilst at Toro Rosso and been sidelined, then Buemi might have been at Toro Rosso and therefore moved up from there to replace Coulthard instead.

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 15 May 2013, 23:41

darkapprentice77 wrote:What If Adrian Newey stayed in Indycar?

More chassis options in IndyCar and no Red Bull dominance in F1.

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 16 May 2013, 02:13

Onxy Wrecked wrote:
darkapprentice77 wrote:What If Adrian Newey stayed in Indycar?

More chassis options in IndyCar and no Red Bull dominance in F1.

Red Bull would be midfield which would make everyone who opposes Red Bull happy! Ferrari would have gotten the double in 2012, with the drivers championship in 2010. McLaren wins constructors' championship in 2010 and the double in 2011. Massa wins his first race since his Hungarian injury in Japan.

As for IndyCar, the teams may be building their own chassis? Seems plausible to me.

Post by **mario** » 16 May 2013, 19:42

go_Rubens wrote:
Onxy Wrecked wrote:
darkapprentice77 wrote:What If Adrian Newey stayed in Indycar?

More chassis options in IndyCar and no Red Bull dominance in F1.

Red Bull would be midfield which would make everyone who opposes Red Bull happy! Ferrari would have gotten the double in 2012, with the drivers championship in 2010. McLaren wins constructors' championship in 2010 and the double in 2011. Massa wins his first race since his Hungarian injury in Japan.

As for IndyCar, the teams may be building their own chassis? Seems plausible to me.

It would have had considerably greater repercussions than that - although Williams were still fairly competitive before Newey arrived in the early 1990's, the cars that he helped produce enabled Williams to truly dominate the early 1990's. You also have to wonder how competitive McLaren would have been in the 1990's and early 2000's if Newey hadn't switched to them - with McLaren likely to have been less competitive, you would have to assume that Rory Byrne, over at Ferrari, would probably have dominated the sport to an even greater extent than he did.
Overall, the balance of power within the sport probably would have been shifted even more heavily towards Ferrari in the 1990's and 2000's given that they had the one designer who was of comparable stature to Newey.

As to the question of their competitiveness, whilst it is probable that the team might have been less competitive, I think that they might have been more competitive in 2009 even without Newey. Newey was not the only senior designer to move from McLaren to Red Bull - Petr Prodromou, the Head of Aerodynamics at Red Bull, moved to Red Bull from McLaren (although that was possibly on Newey's advice), and Prodromou has had a fair amount of influence on Red Bull's most recent cars. There is a suggestion it might have been Prodromou, not Newey, that utilised and refined the recent exhaust blown diffusers, which was why Ferrari apparently made a concerted attempt to lure Prodromou to their camp.

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 16 May 2013, 23:53

go_Rubens wrote:
Onxy Wrecked wrote:
darkapprentice77 wrote:What If Adrian Newey stayed in Indycar?

More chassis options in IndyCar and no Red Bull dominance in F1.

Red Bull would be midfield which would make everyone who opposes Red Bull happy! Ferrari would have gotten the double in 2012, with the drivers championship in 2010. McLaren wins constructors' championship in 2010 and the double in 2011. Massa wins his first race since his Hungarian injury in Japan.

As for IndyCar, the teams may be building their own chassis? Seems plausible to me.

It would have been reserved for Team Penske and the ever evolving Bettenhausen Motorsports, a Penske customer team, which changed names several times after Tony Bettenhausen died in a plane crash. The current incarnation of Bettenhausen's team is found within the Andretti Autosport group with E.J. Viso as the driver. The other teams would have been dependent on customer chassis from the likes of Dallara, Reynard, or Lola throughout the given times with the chassis manufacturers battling over Newey in a bidding war.

AxelP800 · Post by **AxelP800** » 20 May 2013, 17:30

What if the CART never use hanford device? Can we see a lap of 250 mph?

Julien · Post by **Julien** » 21 May 2013, 05:45

I don't think so. The speed would be just too high in the corners, the drivers simply couldn't keep the cars on the track. Not with the current aerodynamics package at least.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 21 May 2013, 06:26

I remember they canceled a CART race about ten years ago because the speeds and g-forces were too high.
I think it was at Texas or Kansas, can't remember. I just remember that press conference where Dr. Steve Olvey told the
press there would not be a race.

Edit:

I found it. It was at Texas in 2001. They drove almost 240mph and the race was canceled:

http://atlasf1.autosport.com/2001/aut/p ... jones.html
Below the memoriam of Alboreto.

The Dutch Bear · Post by **The Dutch Bear** » 21 May 2013, 10:01

Jocke1 wrote:I remember they canceled a CART race about ten years ago because the speeds and g-forces were too high.
I think it was at Texas or Kansas, can't remember. I just remember that press conference where Dr. Steve Olvey told the
press there would not be a race.

Edit:

I found it. It was at Texas in 2001. They drove almost 240mph and the race was canceled:

http://atlasf1.autosport.com/2001/aiut/ ... jones.html
Below the memoriam of Alboreto.

The problem was that the drivers were exposed to more than 5G's for 19 of the 23 seconds of the lap.
Texas' high, 24 degrees, banking caused high vertical G's in combination with the lateral G's caused by cornering.
230 mph is the safe limit for a high banked 1.5 mile oval like Texas. 250 mph is only safe at tracks that are 2 miles or longer, like Michigan, Fontana and IMS.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 21 May 2013, 14:44

The Dutch Bear wrote:
Jocke1 wrote:I remember they canceled a CART race about ten years ago because the speeds and g-forces were too high.
I think it was at Texas or Kansas, can't remember. I just remember that press conference where Dr. Steve Olvey told the
press there would not be a race.

Edit:

I found it. It was at Texas in 2001. They drove almost 240mph and the race was canceled:

http://atlasf1.autosport.com/2001/aiut/ ... jones.html
Below the memoriam of Alboreto.

The problem was that the drivers were exposed to more than 5G's for 19 of the 23 seconds of the lap.
Texas' high, 24 degrees, banking caused high vertical G's in combination with the lateral G's caused by cornering.
230 mph is the safe limit for a high banked 1.5 mile oval like Texas. 250 mph is only safe at tracks that are 2 miles or longer, like Michigan, Fontana and IMS.

Since the stupid link chooses not to work, here it is:

AxelP800 · Post by **AxelP800** » 21 May 2013, 15:45

I know all about Firestone Firehawk 600. It was a disaster. I'm saying 250 mph at Michigan or Fontana. Maybe someone will seriously injured

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 21 May 2013, 20:25

AxelP800 wrote:I know all about Firestone Firehawk 600. It was a disaster. I'm saying 250 mph at Michigan or Fontana. Maybe someone will seriously injured

Arie Luyendyk entered turn one and turn three in the 1996 Indianapolis 500 for qualifying. Since cornering speeds were around the 225 range, they had to reach 245 to 250 mp/h on the end of straightaway to approach 240 mp/h lap times. Then Scott Brayton's tire blew out in a practice session after qualifying on pole and sent him into a lethal spin at 228 mp/h at impact. The walls were harder then, but I heard the tracks and the racing series aren't permitted to allow speeds over 230 mp/h these days for insurance reasons.

andrew2209 · Post by **andrew2209** » 24 May 2013, 07:07

Apologies if it's been asked before.
What if the 2012 Malaysian Grand Prix was unabled to be resumed?

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 24 May 2013, 07:28

andrew2209 wrote:Apologies if it's been asked before.
What if the 2012 Malaysian Grand Prix was unabled to be resumed?

HRT would have beaten both Caterham and Marussia to 10th in the constructors title and they may still be on the grid today.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 24 May 2013, 11:26

Wizzie wrote:
andrew2209 wrote:Apologies if it's been asked before.
What if the 2012 Malaysian Grand Prix was unabled to be resumed?

HRT would have beaten both Caterham and Marussia to 10th in the constructors title and they may still be on the grid today.

Ah yeah, Karthikeyan was 10th wasn't he?

Post by **tommykl** » 24 May 2013, 16:20

FullMetalJack wrote:
Wizzie wrote:
andrew2209 wrote:Apologies if it's been asked before.
What if the 2012 Malaysian Grand Prix was unabled to be resumed?

HRT would have beaten both Caterham and Marussia to 10th in the constructors title and they may still be on the grid today.

Ah yeah, Karthikeyan was 10th wasn't he?

Indeed, in what was probably the greatest reject moment of 2012. Just behind when he was running sixth a couple of laps previously.

Ferrarist · Post by **Ferrarist** » 24 May 2013, 19:50

What if Mario Andretti had given his comeback at the 1996 U.S. 500? (According to Sports Illustrated, Mario initially wanted to do it as a protest against the 25/8 rule)

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 29 May 2013, 15:15

Did anyone ponder what might have happened if Jean Alesi went to Williams instead of Ferrari in 1991
What if Nico Rosberg got the Mclaren drive in 2008?
What if Jean Pierre Van Rossem didn't get involved with Onyx in 1989
What if Niki Lauda didn't have his massive crash in 1976
What if Coloni didn't get Subaru engines in 1990
What if Olivier Panis didn't break his legs at Canada in 1997

Post by **Londoner** » 29 May 2013, 15:58

Kimi-ICE wrote:What if Olivier Panis didn't break his legs at Canada in 1997

I'd wager that Panis was the best driver in the field during 1997. He was never quite the same after his accident, although he was saddled with some bloody awful cars for the rest of his career (Prost AP01, BAR 004).

I think he would have finished at least in the top 6 of the championship, and perhaps an outside tilt for 3rd overall. The Prost JS45 was a fantastic chassis. Am I right in saying if he hadn't crashed at Montreal, he could have won the race despite having to battle his way from last position on the first lap? Or am I getting my wires crossed?

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 29 May 2013, 18:37

East Londoner wrote:
Kimi-ICE wrote:What if Olivier Panis didn't break his legs at Canada in 1997

I'd wager that Panis was the best driver in the field during 1997. He was never quite the same after his accident, although he was saddled with some bloody awful cars for the rest of his career (Prost AP01, BAR 004).

I think he would have finished at least in the top 6 of the championship, and perhaps an outside tilt for 3rd overall. The Prost JS45 was a fantastic chassis. Am I right in saying if he hadn't crashed at Montreal, he could have won the race despite having to battle his way from last position on the first lap? Or am I getting my wires crossed?

Oh, he would've easily finished in the top 6, given that he was 3rd in the championship after Spain. I also reckon he would've picked up a pole position or win as well, probably at Magny Cours, given how the inexperienced Trulli, in private testing set a time good enough for 4th on the grid.

With regards to the Canadian grand prix, given that he was half a minute down at the end of lap one and he was up to 6th by lap 50, he would've been on the podium at the very least; of course, this performance was more down to the Bridgestone tyres than anything, but still some achievement.

What if Adrian Sutil had got the McLaren drive for 2008?

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 29 May 2013, 18:55

Kimi-ICE wrote:Did anyone ponder what might have happened if Jean Alesi went to Williams instead of Ferrari in 1991
What if Nico Rosberg got the Mclaren drive in 2008?
What if Jean Pierre Van Rossem didn't get involved with Onyx in 1989
What if Niki Lauda didn't have his massive crash in 1976
What if Coloni didn't get Subaru engines in 1990
What if Olivier Panis didn't break his legs at Canada in 1997

First question was answered earlier, I think.
Ron Dennis wouldn't have allowed Nico to drive Lewis out. He'd have been on a leash, somewhat similar performances like Kovalainen's.
Less money, no pun intended.
76 title.
Ford Cosworth engines, not better results.
Third in the WDC.

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 29 May 2013, 18:56

takagi_for_the_win wrote:What if Adrian Sutil had got the Mclaren drive for 2008?

Mclaren would make dishwater look exciting

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 29 May 2013, 19:12

takagi_for_the_win wrote: What if Adrian Sutil had got the McLaren drive for 2008?

Heikki would have glassed Ron Dennis.

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 29 May 2013, 19:15

Jocke1 wrote:
takagi_for_the_win wrote: What if Adrian Sutil had got the McLaren drive for 2008?

Heikki would have glassed Ron Dennis.

I'd like to see that.

Anyway to build on this: What if Sutil's conviction happened in 2007 and he got the drive for Mclaren in 2008 alongside Lewis Hamilton having just broken their friendship

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 29 May 2013, 19:19

Kimi-ICE wrote:
Jocke1 wrote:
takagi_for_the_win wrote: What if Adrian Sutil had got the McLaren drive for 2008?

Heikki would have glassed Ron Dennis.

I'd like to see that.

Anyway to build on this: What if Sutil's conviction happened in 2007 and he got the drive for Mclaren in 2008 alongside Lewis Hamilton having just broken their friendship

You're asking the same question I asked 3 posts earlier? :roll:

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 29 May 2013, 19:19

Kimi-ICE wrote: What if Sutil's conviction happened in 2007 and he got the drive for Mclaren in 2008 alongside Lewis Hamilton having just broken their friendship

This every race:
http://youtu.be/40BfnWBxJSY

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 30 May 2013, 16:38

Talking about that Canadian GP, Panis got most of the gap back following an early SC phase caused by Katayama's crash. He was 7th at the time of the crash, unlapped himself due to Coulthard's fateful forced tyre stop. I would need to see the gaps to each driver. He would probably get some minor points, but definately not the podium.

Post by **Londoner** » 01 Jun 2013, 11:50

Here's two that I've been pondering.

What if McLaren hadn't signed a contract with Honda in 1987, and therefore continued to use the Porsche-TAG turbos in 1988?

And what if Honda decided not to develop a V12 engine in 1990/1991/1992, and stuck with their V10s? Would the Williams domination still have happened?

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 01 Jun 2013, 11:54

East Londoner wrote:What if McLaren hadn't signed a contract with Honda in 1987, and therefore continued to use the Porsche-TAG turbos in 1988?

McLaren probably would have continued their slide down the order and Senna may have been tempted to stay with the Honda engines at Lotus, rather than jump ship to McLaren.

As far as the 1988 titles go though, one would imagine that Ferrari would have ended up winning at least one title (probably the drivers' title with Berger), with competition from the likes of Benetton, McLaren and Lotus for the constructors' crown.