What If?

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 01 Jul 2013, 19:47

What if Alain Prost had accepted Pedro Diniz's offer to buy the team in the summer of 2001?

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 01 Jul 2013, 19:59

takagi_for_the_win wrote:What if Alain Prost had accepted Pedro Diniz's offer to buy the team in the summer of 2001?

They might have survived for a bit longer, but I can't see much of an improvement in performance.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 01 Jul 2013, 21:00

CoopsII wrote:Sometime in the mid 90s Flavio Briatore ended up attending a round of BTCC (it may have been a support race for F1) and thought what a great idea it would be to split F1 races into 2, just like those little touring cars. IIRC Bernie also considered it a possibility.

That man will consider anything, even running races twice to double the coverage royalties...

I know that the BTCC was definitely an F1 support race at the 1996 British GP. I was there and was disappointed to leave between the F1 and BTCC in the rush to beat the car park queue. It still took us 4 hours to leave that car park. I reckon even my dad agrees now we should have stayed on to watch it.

Anyway, artificially making Silverstone wet yesterday may have saved a few punctures, if the inters are tougher than the slicks...

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 02 Jul 2013, 02:32

takagi_for_the_win wrote:What if Alain Prost had accepted Pedro Diniz's offer to buy the team in the summer of 2001?

The Prost team is in the oven with Pedro Diniz as owner.

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 02 Jul 2013, 02:35

Onxy Wrecked wrote:
takagi_for_the_win wrote:What if Alain Prost had accepted Pedro Diniz's offer to buy the team in the summer of 2001?

The Prost team is in the oven with Pedro Diniz as owner.

I'd say in the Financial Oven!

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 02 Jul 2013, 07:15

go_Rubens wrote:
Onxy Wrecked wrote:
takagi_for_the_win wrote:What if Alain Prost had accepted Pedro Diniz's offer to buy the team in the summer of 2001?

The Prost team is in the oven with Pedro Diniz as owner.

I'd say in the Financial Oven!

Also, Diniz pizza tonight

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 02 Jul 2013, 07:29

pi314159 wrote:I wouldn't take it seriously the idea of artificially flooded tracks.

Was that a Bernie idea though? Im sure that was one Sir Murray of Walker used to jokingly suggest during commentary?

Not that it matters.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 02 Jul 2013, 07:44

What if, somehow, Jordan were powered by Mercedes engines for 2000?

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 02 Jul 2013, 10:15

what if Honda used there X32 eperimental engine?

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 02 Jul 2013, 10:39

good_Ralf wrote:What if, somehow, Jordan were powered by Mercedes engines for 2000?

There would have been more engine failures :lol:

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 02 Jul 2013, 10:41

go_Rubens wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:What if, somehow, Jordan were powered by Mercedes engines for 2000?

There would have been more engine failures

Really? I just asked this question because the Jordan EJ10 is cool looking and it should have a little quicker and way more reliable and therefore I thought a Mercedes combination would work.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 02 Jul 2013, 10:42

go_Rubens wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:What if, somehow, Jordan were powered by Mercedes engines for 2000?

There would have been more engine failures

Actually, the 2000 Mercedes engines, and to a lesser extent the 2001 engines as well, were a pretty potent package to have. It was only from 2002 that they all started going to hell. :lol:

Had they kept them on for any meaningful length of time, it'd be safe to assume that Sato would have made his F1 debut for BAR in 2002 or 2003 instead of Jordan. Which wouldn't necessarily be a good thing considering how god-awful the 2002 BAR was.

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 02 Jul 2013, 11:03

good_Ralf wrote:
go_Rubens wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:What if, somehow, Jordan were powered by Mercedes engines for 2000?

There would have been more engine failures

Really? I just asked this question because the Jordan EJ10 is cool looking and it should have a little quicker and way more reliable and therefore I thought a Mercedes combination would work.

Well, the main reason for most of the mechanical problems which forced their cars out of some events was the gearbox, which was a crapbox of a gearbox. The gearbox caused 7 retirements for Jordan that year, which was pretty excessive. An engine change might not have done much now that I think of it, because both the Mugen and Merc engines only had 3 failures the whole season. So instead of an engine change, what if Jordan used Mercedes gearboxes in the 2000 season? McLaren had no gearbox issues the whole season.

Thanks for the little facts, Wizzie. How can we live without you? :lol:

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 03 Jul 2013, 11:38

I've got one

What if Valtteri Bottas got chosen to race for Williams in 2012?

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 03 Jul 2013, 18:40

Kimi-ICE wrote:I've got one

What if Valtteri Bottas got chosen to race for Williams in 2012?

Podiums and even a maiden would be likely and if the consistent Vale was put up against Maldonado, I dare say he would have outscored the Venezuelan! Bottas would probably be looked in by some top teams, but in the end, I think he would have stayed at Williams, which is a shame.

Shadaza · Post by **Shadaza** » 03 Jul 2013, 19:05

good_Ralf wrote:
Kimi-ICE wrote:I've got one

What if Valtteri Bottas got chosen to race for Williams in 2012?

Podiums and even a maiden would be likely.

Oh la la, I think most F1 drivers can pick up maidens. Except maybe Chilton, he has to be in bed by 7pm.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 03 Jul 2013, 19:07

good_Ralf wrote:
go_Rubens wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:What if, somehow, Jordan were powered by Mercedes engines for 2000?

There would have been more engine failures

Really? I just asked this question because the Jordan EJ10 is cool looking and it should have a little quicker and way more reliable and therefore I thought a Mercedes combination would work.

I think I read / heard somewhere Jordan felt they were a little too conservative in the design of the 1999 car. So they took a few more risks when designing the 2000 car (like the gearbox) and boy did backfire on them.

Also according to EJ’s book, Jordan was close to tieing up a deal to run Mercedes engines for (IIRC) 2004. And badging them as ‘Smart’ engines. To promote the newly released ‘Smart’ cars, which I believe are owed by Mercedes. Can’t remember now why it didn’t happen though. Knowing what I know about him, EJ probably felt Mercedes were asking for too much money.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 03 Jul 2013, 19:15

Shadaza wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:
Kimi-ICE wrote:I've got one

What if Valtteri Bottas got chosen to race for Williams in 2012?

Podiums and even a maiden would be likely.

Oh la la, I think most F1 drivers can pick up maidens. Except maybe Chilton, he has to be in bed by 7pm.

Sorry, I forgot to put win between maiden and would. :oops:

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 03 Jul 2013, 19:17

Shadaza wrote:Except maybe Chilton, he has to be in bed by 7pm.

...no doubt accompanied by someone

When you have a hair cut as good as Max's. That is how you will roll. :lol:

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 03 Jul 2013, 19:32

ibsey wrote:Also according to EJ’s book, Jordan was close to tieing up a deal to run Mercedes engines for (IIRC) 2004. And badging them as ‘Smart’ engines. To promote the newly released ‘Smart’ cars, which I believe are owed by Mercedes. Can’t remember now why it didn’t happen though. Knowing what I know about him, EJ probably felt Mercedes were asking for too much money.

Given how McLaren got on with their Merc engines in 2004/5, that may not have been a great move all considered.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 03 Jul 2013, 19:38

shinji wrote:
ibsey wrote:Also according to EJ’s book, Jordan was close to tieing up a deal to run Mercedes engines for (IIRC) 2004. And badging them as ‘Smart’ engines. To promote the newly released ‘Smart’ cars, which I believe are owed by Mercedes. Can’t remember now why it didn’t happen though. Knowing what I know about him, EJ probably felt Mercedes were asking for too much money.

Given how McLaren got on with their Merc engines in 2004/5, that may not have been a great move all considered.

Even then I imagine it would be a step up from the Fords they ran.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 03 Jul 2013, 19:56

shinji wrote:
ibsey wrote:Also according to EJ’s book, Jordan was close to tieing up a deal to run Mercedes engines for (IIRC) 2004. And badging them as ‘Smart’ engines. To promote the newly released ‘Smart’ cars, which I believe are owed by Mercedes. Can’t remember now why it didn’t happen though. Knowing what I know about him, EJ probably felt Mercedes were asking for too much money.

Given how McLaren got on with their Merc engines in 2004/5, that may not have been a great move all considered.

That was exactly what I was thinking (I can still picture Kimi's massive engine failure at Barain 2004). It might also be a reason why Heidfeld moved from Sauber to Jordan in 2004?

I do also vividly remember that Prost were trying to obtain 'works' Merc engines for his team for the 2000 season. Just one of the reasons Alain hired the rookie Heidfeld. I've always wondered what a Prost Mercedes partnership in 2000 might have been like. Or in other words, one of the best engines in clearly the worst chassis that year?

Would Alesi have been able to tame a Prost Mercedes, to a few decent results. IIRC Alesi was putting in some storming drives at Brazil, Monaco & Spa 2000 until the Prost Peugeot did its usual thing, of detonating itself. So one wonders what he might have done with a more powerful & reliable engine in that awful chassis?

Post by **Ataxia** » 03 Jul 2013, 20:24

Salamander wrote:
shinji wrote:
ibsey wrote:Also according to EJ’s book, Jordan was close to tieing up a deal to run Mercedes engines for (IIRC) 2004. And badging them as ‘Smart’ engines. To promote the newly released ‘Smart’ cars, which I believe are owed by Mercedes. Can’t remember now why it didn’t happen though. Knowing what I know about him, EJ probably felt Mercedes were asking for too much money.

Given how McLaren got on with their Merc engines in 2004/5, that may not have been a great move all considered.

Even then I imagine it would be a step up from the Fords they ran.

From EJ's autobiography:

Eddie Jordan wrote:At Imola in the spring of that same year (2003), I had an exploratory meeting with Norbert Haug, the competitions boss of Mercedes. We had discussed the possibility of having customer Mercedes engines for the following season, 2004. It was an interesting proposal. Mercedes owned Smart and they were wondering how best to promote this range of small cars. The plan was to badge our engines "Smart" and, as part of the deal, we would provide a drive for the McLaren-Mercedes B-list driver Gary Paffett. It was a neat plan that would be inexpensive for us and provide us with a good engine.
...
In late July at Silverstone, [Jurgen] Huppert came to see me and asked why I had not told him we had told him we had a contract with Ford for 2004. In fact, we had a contract with release options and I pointed out that a get-out clause would shortly come into force. Ford, who didn't know about the Mercedes option, were delaying settling on a deal for 2004 in the hope that, late in the day, we would have no alternative by which time they could ask for not 10 million Euros, but 18 million Euros. I told Huppert there would be no difficulty in switching to the Mercedes engine and proved it by showing the relevant part of the Ford contract at the next race at Hockenheim.

Meanwhile, Parry-Jones was under pressure from Ford in Detroit. The Jaguar team were haemorrhaging money, looking unlikely to win a race and paying Eddie Irvine $10 million a year. Jaguar has the best technology but the team seemed to lack the passion and commitment. Parry-Jones had responded to none of my letters. I would reach a new level of blasphemy when I just found out what Parry-Jones had been up to behind the scenes.

On race day at Hockenheim, Huppert told me that Mercedes would be unable to do a deal for the supply of engines. I was informed that Parry-Jones had threatened to pull Ford out of the GPWC and hasten its possible collapse if the remaining manufacturers did not agree to Ford supplying all of the independent teams with engines, and not at 10 million Euros. The manufacturers in a captive position agreed. Our deal with Mercedes had been scuppered by Ford's tactics.

TL;DR: Mercedes deal all but agreed, Ford pull the rug out from under their feet.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 03 Jul 2013, 21:32

What if Montoya hadn't retired in Indy in 2001?

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 03 Jul 2013, 21:44

ibsey wrote:
Shadaza wrote:Except maybe Chilton, he has to be in bed by 7pm.

...no doubt accompanied by someone

When you have a hair cut as good as Max's. That is how you will roll.

So max won't be racing in Singapore because its past his bedtime

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 03 Jul 2013, 23:09

Ataxia wrote:From EJ's autobiography:

Eddie Jordan wrote:At Imola in the spring of that same year (2003), I had an exploratory meeting with Norbert Haug, the competitions boss of Mercedes. We had discussed the possibility of having customer Mercedes engines for the following season, 2004. It was an interesting proposal. Mercedes owned Smart and they were wondering how best to promote this range of small cars. The plan was to badge our engines "Smart" and, as part of the deal, we would provide a drive for the McLaren-Mercedes B-list driver Gary Paffett. It was a neat plan that would be inexpensive for us and provide us with a good engine.
...
In late July at Silverstone, [Jurgen] Huppert came to see me and asked why I had not told him we had told him we had a contract with Ford for 2004. In fact, we had a contract with release options and I pointed out that a get-out clause would shortly come into force. Ford, who didn't know about the Mercedes option, were delaying settling on a deal for 2004 in the hope that, late in the day, we would have no alternative by which time they could ask for not 10 million Euros, but 18 million Euros. I told Huppert there would be no difficulty in switching to the Mercedes engine and proved it by showing the relevant part of the Ford contract at the next race at Hockenheim.

Meanwhile, Parry-Jones was under pressure from Ford in Detroit. The Jaguar team were haemorrhaging money, looking unlikely to win a race and paying Eddie Irvine $10 million a year. Jaguar has the best technology but the team seemed to lack the passion and commitment. Parry-Jones had responded to none of my letters. I would reach a new level of blasphemy when I just found out what Parry-Jones had been up to behind the scenes.

On race day at Hockenheim, Huppert told me that Mercedes would be unable to do a deal for the supply of engines. I was informed that Parry-Jones had threatened to pull Ford out of the GPWC and hasten its possible collapse if the remaining manufacturers did not agree to Ford supplying all of the independent teams with engines, and not at 10 million Euros. The manufacturers in a captive position agreed. Our deal with Mercedes had been scuppered by Ford's tactics.

TL;DR: Mercedes deal all but agreed, Ford pull the rug out from under their feet.

So Paffett got screwed out of a drive? Poor guy...

Post by **Ataxia** » 03 Jul 2013, 23:23

the Masked Lapwing wrote:
Ataxia wrote:From EJ's autobiography:

Eddie Jordan wrote:At Imola in the spring of that same year (2003), I had an exploratory meeting with Norbert Haug, the competitions boss of Mercedes. We had discussed the possibility of having customer Mercedes engines for the following season, 2004. It was an interesting proposal. Mercedes owned Smart and they were wondering how best to promote this range of small cars. The plan was to badge our engines "Smart" and, as part of the deal, we would provide a drive for the McLaren-Mercedes B-list driver Gary Paffett. It was a neat plan that would be inexpensive for us and provide us with a good engine.
...
In late July at Silverstone, [Jurgen] Huppert came to see me and asked why I had not told him we had told him we had a contract with Ford for 2004. In fact, we had a contract with release options and I pointed out that a get-out clause would shortly come into force. Ford, who didn't know about the Mercedes option, were delaying settling on a deal for 2004 in the hope that, late in the day, we would have no alternative by which time they could ask for not 10 million Euros, but 18 million Euros. I told Huppert there would be no difficulty in switching to the Mercedes engine and proved it by showing the relevant part of the Ford contract at the next race at Hockenheim.

Meanwhile, Parry-Jones was under pressure from Ford in Detroit. The Jaguar team were haemorrhaging money, looking unlikely to win a race and paying Eddie Irvine $10 million a year. Jaguar has the best technology but the team seemed to lack the passion and commitment. Parry-Jones had responded to none of my letters. I would reach a new level of blasphemy when I just found out what Parry-Jones had been up to behind the scenes.

On race day at Hockenheim, Huppert told me that Mercedes would be unable to do a deal for the supply of engines. I was informed that Parry-Jones had threatened to pull Ford out of the GPWC and hasten its possible collapse if the remaining manufacturers did not agree to Ford supplying all of the independent teams with engines, and not at 10 million Euros. The manufacturers in a captive position agreed. Our deal with Mercedes had been scuppered by Ford's tactics.

TL;DR: Mercedes deal all but agreed, Ford pull the rug out from under their feet.

So Paffett got screwed out of a drive? Poor guy...

Sure seems that way.

Assuming Jordan would have had to pay Mercedes far less than the €18m they presumably paid Ford, then Pantano wouldn't have been needed. And on paper, a Heidfeld/Paffett lineup would have been pretty handy...

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 03 Jul 2013, 23:24

good_Ralf wrote:What if Montoya hadn't retired in Indy in 2001?

The race or the CART series? Because him not moving to F1 was answered sometime earlier in this thread.

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 04 Jul 2013, 01:31

Shadaza wrote:Oh la la, I think most F1 drivers can pick up maidens. Except maybe Chilton, he has to be in bed by 7pm.

Chilton looks younger than my brother and my brother is eighteen.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 04 Jul 2013, 07:37

go_Rubens wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:What if Montoya hadn't retired in Indy in 2001?

The race or the CART series? Because him not moving to F1 was answered sometime earlier in this thread.

The F1 Grand Prix. I was watching a highlights video and I had this idea.

Post by **Londoner** » 04 Jul 2013, 08:33

What if Dario Franchitti had managed to secure an F1 seat about 10 to 12 years ago now, as he performed some tests for Jaguar in 2000? Might he have had better luck and chances to succeed than other drivers making the leap from CART/IndyCar to F1?

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 04 Jul 2013, 08:37

East Londoner wrote:What if Dario Franchitti had managed to secure an F1 seat about 10 to 12 years ago now, as he performed some tests for Jaguar in 2000? Might he have had better luck and chances to succeed than other drivers making the leap from CART/IndyCar to F1?

In the R2, podiums would have been likely when the car was good, but otherwise I'm not sure what he could have done. Dario might have been in the top 10 in 2001 because I think he was as pacy as Irvine. However, once Rahal got removed, the same might have happened to Franchitti and either he got into a midfield team or he returned to America.

What if Kobayashi made a good start at Spa in 2012?

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 04 Jul 2013, 11:57

good_Ralf wrote:
East Londoner wrote:What if Dario Franchitti had managed to secure an F1 seat about 10 to 12 years ago now, as he performed some tests for Jaguar in 2000? Might he have had better luck and chances to succeed than other drivers making the leap from CART/IndyCar to F1?

In the R2, podiums would have been likely when the car was good, but otherwise I'm not sure what he could have done. Dario might have been in the top 10 in 2001 because I think he was as pacy as Irvine. However, once Rahal got removed, the same might have happened to Franchitti and either he got into a midfield team or he returned to America.

What if Kobayashi made a good start at Spa in 2012?

Oh, you make me laugh

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 04 Jul 2013, 12:08

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Oh, you make me laugh

It might have been likely but unfortunately for them the car was always rubbish.

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 04 Jul 2013, 12:21

Faustus wrote:
takagi_for_the_win wrote:Oh, you make me laugh

It might have been likely but unfortunately for them the car was always rubbish.

I believe Irvine called it the worst F1 car he'd ever driven, high praise indeed

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 04 Jul 2013, 12:41

takagi_for_the_win wrote:
Faustus wrote:
takagi_for_the_win wrote:Oh, you make me laugh

It might have been likely but unfortunately for them the car was always rubbish.

I believe Irvine called it the worst F1 car he'd ever driven, high praise indeed

If the R2 was the worst car he's even driven, then what on earth did he think of the even more lamentable R3? :lol:

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 04 Jul 2013, 13:14

Wizzie wrote:
takagi_for_the_win wrote:I believe Irvine called it the worst F1 car he'd ever driven, high praise indeed

If the R2 was the worst car he's even driven, then what on earth did he think of the even more lamentable R3?

Or the equally dismal R1?? :lol:

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 04 Jul 2013, 13:19

Ataxia wrote:
From EJ's autobiography:

Eddie Jordan wrote:...
Meanwhile, Parry-Jones was under pressure from Ford in Detroit. The Jaguar team were haemorrhaging money, looking unlikely to win a race and paying Eddie Irvine $10 million a year. Jaguar has the best technology but the team seemed to lack the passion and commitment. Parry-Jones had responded to none of my letters. I would reach a new level of blasphemy when I just found out what Parry-Jones had been up to behind the scenes...

$10 million a year? That roughly equates to about $1.7 million for every point he scored. Not a bad day's work, eh?

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 04 Jul 2013, 18:35

Ataxia wrote:From EJ's autobiography:

Eddie Jordan wrote:
At Imola in the spring of that same year (2003), I had an exploratory meeting with Norbert Haug, the competitions boss of Mercedes. We had discussed the possibility of having customer Mercedes engines for the following season, 2004. It was an interesting proposal. Mercedes owned Smart and they were wondering how best to promote this range of small cars. The plan was to badge our engines "Smart" and, as part of the deal, we would provide a drive for the McLaren-Mercedes B-list driver Gary Paffett. It was a neat plan that would be inexpensive for us and provide us with a good engine.
...
In late July at Silverstone, [Jurgen] Huppert came to see me and asked why I had not told him we had told him we had a contract with Ford for 2004. In fact, we had a contract with release options and I pointed out that a get-out clause would shortly come into force. Ford, who didn't know about the Mercedes option, were delaying settling on a deal for 2004 in the hope that, late in the day, we would have no alternative by which time they could ask for not 10 million Euros, but 18 million Euros. I told Huppert there would be no difficulty in switching to the Mercedes engine and proved it by showing the relevant part of the Ford contract at the next race at Hockenheim.

Meanwhile, Parry-Jones was under pressure from Ford in Detroit. The Jaguar team were haemorrhaging money, looking unlikely to win a race and paying Eddie Irvine $10 million a year. Jaguar has the best technology but the team seemed to lack the passion and commitment. Parry-Jones had responded to none of my letters. I would reach a new level of blasphemy when I just found out what Parry-Jones had been up to behind the scenes.

On race day at Hockenheim, Huppert told me that Mercedes would be unable to do a deal for the supply of engines. I was informed that Parry-Jones had threatened to pull Ford out of the GPWC and hasten its possible collapse if the remaining manufacturers did not agree to Ford supplying all of the independent teams with engines, and not at 10 million Euros. The manufacturers in a captive position agreed. Our deal with Mercedes had been scuppered by Ford's tactics.

TL;DR: Mercedes deal all but agreed, Ford pull the rug out from under their feet.

Interesting stuff indeed. Thanks so much for providing the addition info Ataxia.

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 04 Jul 2013, 21:43

What If Jason Plato got into NASCAR in 2003?