RBR appeal lost

[Alextrax52]

Well Red Bull lost the appeal

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113461

[CoopsII]

[LeytonHouse]

*Sigh* That's a real pity, especially for Dan.

[Salamander]

*Sigh* That's a real pity, especially for Dan.

Well... could you really have expected a different outcome?

[LeytonHouse]

Not unexpected at all but there was still some hope in my heart...

[DanielPT]

*Sigh* That's a real pity, especially for Dan.

Well... could you really have expected a different outcome?

Indeed we could not.

I think justice has been served. I only think it was lamentable for Ricciardo to be involved in all this being only real victim of his team shenanigans.

One thing though. I found it was really weird for Red Bull to say that it would not have been possible to finish second with FIA fuel flow sensors on Dan's car. That was a weird way of effectively saying they cheated.

[CoopsII]

Not unexpected at all but there was still some hope in my heart...

He might be a nice guy and involved unwittingly but the fact remains his car had an advantage so.....

[Salamander]

Not unexpected at all but there was still some hope in my heart...

He might be a nice guy and involved unwittingly but the fact remains his car had an advantage so.....

Agreed. Newey basically admitted as much just before the hearing.

It still staggers me how incredibly stupid Red Bull has acted in regards to this whole situation. I really cannot think of a single reason that they think that this would have ever worked out in their favour apart from them simply being that arrogant.

[eytl]

From a legal and administrative standpoint it would have been an absolute joke if any other decision had been reached.

I agree with DanielPT's point about how Red Bull conceded Ricciardo would not have finished 2nd had they heeded the FIA's warnings. There's no way he could have kept the 2nd place after that.

And even though the 18 points, the 2nd place trophy and the place in the record books would have been nice, Dan still proved his point over the course of the Melbourne weekend.

[James1978]

I think on Ricciardo's Bahrain showing, he'll soon put the record right anyway, but glad the team didn't get away with it!!

[watka]

Ricciardo will get a podium soon enough and if Red Bull develop their car like we know they can then we'll see him challenging for victories too.

[jackanderton]

Ricciardo is looking more at home with the car than Vettel so far, more than held his own.

[mario]

Not unexpected at all but there was still some hope in my heart...

He might be a nice guy and involved unwittingly but the fact remains his car had an advantage so.....

Agreed. Newey basically admitted as much just before the hearing.

It still staggers me how incredibly stupid Red Bull has acted in regards to this whole situation. I really cannot think of a single reason that they think that this would have ever worked out in their favour apart from them simply being that arrogant.

It mainly turns on their interpretation of the enforceability of a Technical Directive which, by the FIA's own admission, does not have the same legal authority as the Technical Regulations (or indeed any legal authority - they outline how the FIA interprets the regulations but, strictly speaking, are only the FIA's opinions, not the FIA's instructions). In some senses Red Bull does have a point, but overall the impact it would have had on the FIA's ability to rule the sport meant that there was little chance they could have succeeded - there was simply too much at stake for the FIA to concede defeat.

[FullMetalJack]

I really cannot think of a single reason that they think that this would have ever worked out in their favour apart from them simply being that arrogant.

They give off the vibe that they think they're above the regulations. I think it's down to the recent success they've had.

[Salamander]

It still staggers me how incredibly stupid Red Bull has acted in regards to this whole situation. I really cannot think of a single reason that they think that this would have ever worked out in their favour apart from them simply being that arrogant.

It mainly turns on their interpretation of the enforceability of a Technical Directive which, by the FIA's own admission, does not have the same legal authority as the Technical Regulations (or indeed any legal authority - they outline how the FIA interprets the regulations but, strictly speaking, are only the FIA's opinions, not the FIA's instructions). In some senses Red Bull does have a point, but overall the impact it would have had on the FIA's ability to rule the sport meant that there was little chance they could have succeeded - there was simply too much at stake for the FIA to concede defeat.

That's the part that's leaving me scratching my head - they surely must've known this. Letting Red Bull win the hearing would've made a mockery of the fuel flow restriction. If their intention was to bring up a flaw in the enforcement of the rule, they could easily have brought it up without butting heads with the FIA. Instead, they chose this self-destructive route in which they backed themselves into a corner and left the FIA with no reasonable option but to shut them down entirely. I know you should never attribute to malice what can easily be explained by stupidity... but there's something fishy about Red Bull's course of action in all this.

[mario]

Well, the FIA have been true to their word and have now published a detailed explanation of their judgement, and some of the comments they have made are a pretty damning indictment of Red Bull's defence. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/04/18/f ... peal-full/

For a start, it appears that Red Bull's claims that the fuel flow model they used was "completely accurate" was rather questionable - it now transpires that they didn't actually measure directly how much fuel was being injected into the cylinder, only what had been programmed to be injected into the cylinder.

To make matters worse, Red Bull seem to have showed graphs which they claimed showed inconsistencies in the readings of the FIA approved fuel meter - unfortunately, it seems to have actually shown that the parameters that were used in the fuel flow model were varying from lap to lap. To seal the deal though, it seems that even their own fuel flow model indicated that Ricciardo was exceeding the maximum fuel flow rate - so now it looks as if the basis for their defence was much flimsier than first thought.

[go_Rubens]

I have one word for you my friends, just one word.

Arrogance.

[Jocke1]

Do you find something comical about Red Bull's appeal?
Everyone needs to try their case, even the very flimsy.
These were the best lawyers that Red Bull could afford.
Are they therefore to be made the subject of fun?
Would you like it if I laughed at your misfortune, huh?
Maybe we should find out?

Hey, everybody! Look at this, it's CoopsII who laughs at everyone. Let's laugh at him!

[Salamander]

I have one word for you my friends, just one word.

Arrogance.

No, this just seems too stupid. I can't believe Red Bull thought the FIA would do anything other than uphold the judgement.

[dr-baker]

There's an intriguing article on Autosport that seems to be suggesting that the team's Total fuel is damaging the sensors. Not only that, but they are also making modifications to the connectors. Reminds me of the time when Benetton admitted to making modifications to the FIA refuelling rigs in 1994, just after this incident... Sounds like that, as in that 1994 incident, the FIA are going to tighten things up and prevent teams making modifications to these standard FIA-spec parts.

[mario]

There's an intriguing article on Autosport that seems to be suggesting that the team's Total fuel is damaging the sensors. Not only that, but they are also making modifications to the connectors. Reminds me of the time when Benetton admitted to making modifications to the FIA refuelling rigs in 1994, just after this incident... Sounds like that, as in that 1994 incident, the FIA are going to tighten things up and prevent teams making modifications to these standard FIA-spec parts.

The indication is that the modifications are being made predominantly by the Renault powered teams, who are drilling through the casing of the fuel sensor in order to modify the mounting system for the fuel sensor. Either way, the suggestion that it is connected with their fuel supplier is an interesting allegation given that would also presumably impact all of the Renault powered teams (I think they all use fuel from Total).

[sswishbone]

Surely this is tampering with a homologated part? And therefore subject to heavy penalties on all guilty parties?

[CoopsII]

Do you find something comical about Red Bull's appeal?
Everyone needs to try their case, even the very flimsy.
These were the best lawyers that Red Bull could afford.
Are they therefore to be made the subject of fun?
Would you like it if I laughed at your misfortune, huh?
Maybe we should find out?

Hey, everybody! Look at this, it's CoopsII who laughs at everyone. Let's laugh at him!

I found it comical that they thought they had a case, despite just about everyone else thinking they didnt. I found it comical that they then lost that case. The quality of the lawyers is irrelevant, as is the value of their counsel. Neither of which I found comical. I couldnt give a flying fook if somebody on a forum laughed at me or any misfortune of mine as I am not so insecure as to care about what somebody I will never meet thinks about my online persona so laugh away.

Finally, I dont laugh at everyone....

[FMecha]

I have one word for you my friends, just one word.

Arrogance.

No, this just seems too stupid. I can't believe Red Bull thought the FIA would do anything other than uphold the judgement.

Stupidly arrogant would better describe it.

[Jocke1]

I found it comical that they thought they had a case, despite just about everyone else thinking they didnt. I found it comical that they then lost that case. The quality of the lawyers is irrelevant, as is the value of their counsel. Neither of which I found comical. I couldnt give a flying fook if somebody on a forum laughed at me or any misfortune of mine as I am not so insecure as to care about what somebody I will never meet thinks about my online persona so laugh away.

Finally, I dont laugh at everyone....

Oh, Coops
I take it you haven't seen Season 7, Episode 21 '22 Short Films About Springfield'? I thought you had.
You were the one referencing The Simpsons, so I just joined in.
That whole thing I posted above was merely a rewrite of a scene towards the end of the episode, nothing personal.
I also think Red Bull had it coming.

http://youtu.be/bn2ofZ84tZI?t=26s

I'm sorry if you took offence.