Unusual F1 Stats

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 22 Nov 2015, 19:44

tommykl wrote:I also think it's unfair to say the Ickx was never close to being champion, not only because a) he never had the outright best car, but also because b) 1970? Or, more competitively, was three points behind Graham Hill with 3 rounds left in 1968.

I did look at 1970, and I decided "Rindt so it doesn't count". I should've said that.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 22 Nov 2015, 22:00

Heat 2
Thirty-two remain, but not the thirty-two champions. Will any non-champions move on? Well, yes, there's a match between two of them.

Michael Schumacher - Jean Alesi
Obviously they spent most of their time together. Alesi had more points in 1991, which probably shouldn't count, and no other season. Over their careers... nope, can't find something Alesi did better, apart from coming in 5th place.

Nigel Mansell - Alan Jones
Both of them are single champions, so that doesn't matter. Mansell-Jones: win rate .16-.10, podium .31-.21, pole .17-.05. (You may notice Wessel's site doesn't provide poles, so now I'm dragging Stats F1 into this too.) Mansell has more seasons, so Jones can't use longevity as an excuse. Mansell wins.

James Hunt - Emerson Fittipaldi
Hunt has wins 11%-9%, podiums 25%-23%, and poles 15%-4%. Is that enough to beat an extra championship? Well, they were contemporaries, and Fittipaldi has him beat 5-2 on season points, using the system they actually drove with. Championship top tens, this competition's proxy for a year where someone was figuratively visible, has Fittipaldi up 7-5. Hunt may have had a slightly denser career, but he had one serious title fight, and those two wins and two 2nds from Fittipaldi are too much.

Nelson Piquet - Carlos Reutemann
They had a couple good years together, but they spent more time away, so I'll be looking at them individually. Piquet has wins .11-.08, Reutemann has podiums .31-.29. Poles is .12-.04 for Piquet. Even without a three-title difference, it's going towards Piquet, but with it there's no contest.

Lewis Hamilton - John Surtees
Hamilton has win rate .26-.05, championships 3-1, and every other stat. All Surtees has is more seasons, but even that's blatantly unfair. Hamilton wins easily.

Jackie Stewart - Mika Häkkinen
Stewart has everything. It's not as much of a blowout as the previous one, but it's the same idea.

Ayrton Senna - Giuseppe Farina
Farina has a better podium rate, .57-.49! Everything else points towards Senna, though.

Juan Manuel Fangio - Felipe Massa
I guess it's technically possible Massa will go on an amazing run of six championships after I write this. But some guy who isn't even a champion has nothing on the only driver to take pole in the majority of his entries.

Alain Prost - Stirling Moss
Wins are roughly equal, .25-.24 for Prost. Podiums is clearer, .52-.34. Moss has poles .24-.17. Basically what I need is something to make up a deficit of four championships, and it's not there.

Jack Brabham - Niki Lauda
This is this round's Jochen Rindt Egregiously Early Match. After a few easy ones, we now have two three-time champions. Lauda wins win% 14-11, podium% 31-25, and pole% 14-11. Brabham has two more seasons with multiple races, whilst Lauda has better FL rate. It's slight, but it's clear that Lauda wins.

Sebastian Vettel - Dan Gurney
Vettel-Gurney: wins .27-.05, podiums .50-.22, poles .29-.03, championships 4-0.

David Coulthard - Ronnie Peterson
You know who has the best win rate? Not Fangio, it's Lee Wallard. Cheap, right? Anyway, Coulthard first: win rate .05-.08, podium .25-.21, pole .05-.11. Peterson has three championship podium finishes to Coulthard's five. They both had their chance in a top team as well. Of course, Peterson's death makes everything arguable. With that all so close, I'm going to teammate comparisons, and that goes to Peterson. With the elimination of #57 Hunt, this makes #42 Peterson the worst seed left.

Fernando Alonso - Damon Hill
Damon Hill has a better win rate, .18-.13. Alonso takes podiums .38-.34. Poles is .17-.09 to Hill. Is that worth an extra championship? Alonso has one more championship 2nd or 3rd and way more top tens. Hill's got some things going for him, but overall, Alonso has the better career.

Jenson Button - Jim Clark
Clark-Button: win rate .35-.05, podium rate .44-.18, pole rate .46-.03, championships 2-1. Jim Clark even wins on excuses 3-0.

Kimi Räikkönen - Nico Rosberg
Räikkönen first: wins .09-.07, podiums .34-.22, poles .07-.11, titles 1-0. Räikkönen also has more high overall finishes in general. So is it Räikkönen? As of 2015, yes. Rosberg's future races aren't enough this time, especially since Räikkönen has some too.

Graham Hill - Denny Hulme
Hill first: wins .08-.07, podiums .20-.29, poles .07-.01. And Hill of course has the extra title. With that, Graham Hill moves on.

Peterson has made it the furthest of the non-champions. The next post will be the round of 16, and the one after that will be the other remaining rounds.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 23 Nov 2015, 23:24

Round of 16
These aren't really the sixteen greatest drivers statistically, this bracket's a bit weird.

Michael Schumacher - Nigel Mansell
There isn't anything Mansell did better. I could list off some numbers, but they all tell the same story.

Emerson Fittipaldi - Nelson Piquet
Piquet gets win rate .11-.09, podiums .29-.23, poles .12-.04, and of course has an extra championship.

Lewis Hamilton - Jackie Stewart
Hamilton first: win rate .26-.27, podiums .52-.43, poles .30-.17, championships 3-3. They have an equal number of seasons right now and neither career ends with a protracted slide down the grid, so that's convenient. It's slightly toward Hamilton, and with Mercedes he's more likely to improve his stats. So either way you look at it, it goes to him.

Ayrton Senna - Juan Manuel Fangio
Fangio is better at everything. It's disappointly boring how easy the decision is.

Alain Prost - Niki Lauda
Hey, this one actually happened! Two seasons together, and they each got one title from it. Not that useful, honestly. Actually, I was really hyped for this one, but Prost takes all the stats. I'm disappointed again.

Sebastian Vettel - Ronnie Peterson
Peterson had a good run, didn't he? He beat people like... Bruce McLaren and David Coulthard. Okay, not that great, but he made it. But yeah, it's another boring walkover.

Fernando Alonso - Jim Clark
Clark beats Alonso. Win rate .35-.13, podium .44-.38, pole .46-.09. With better luck, Alonso could have collected more championships, but the same is true of Clark.

Kimi Räikkönen - Graham Hill
Räikkönen first. Win rate: .09-.08! Something close! Podium rate: .34-.20. Poles: .07-.07! Are those podiums better than a championship? What will Räikkönen do in future? If Räikkönen was projected to win a championship or even just increase his stats, like a certain three drivers, I'd give it to him, but at the moment it just looks like he'll make them worse. So Graham Hill moves on.

So that round wasn't the toughest to work out. Sorry about that.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 26 Nov 2015, 22:03

Quarterfinals
Michael Schumacher - Nelson Piquet
Er... Piquet has more... er. I'm sure he has more something.

Lewis Hamilton - Juan Manuel Fangio
Even if Hamilton does win 2016, his stats still aren't as good.

Alain Prost - Sebastian Vettel
The two tetrachampions, and would you believe it, it's actually close. Prost first: win rate .25-.27, podium .52-.50, pole .17-.29. So Vettel has the slight advantage there. Who's the better driver? I don't know. I feel oddly unqualified to answer that. Plus Vettel's career isn't even over yet. So since it's about stats and Vettel has a big stat in his favour, he moves on.

Jim Clark - Graham Hill
Well, they did have a year together, as any good sim racer knows, but it's just a year. So with equal championships, who has the better numbers? Well, surprise, it's Jim Clark. Clark competed in all the years Hill did, and even ignoring that Clark died still having champion skill and giving Hill all those extra races, Clark still decisively has more wins and poles.

Semifinals
Michael Schumacher - Juan Manuel Fangio
Aw geez. Well, Fangio has win rate .47-.30, podiums .69-.50, and poles .57-.22. He's just missing a couple extra championships. And that's really what does it for him: he only has seven full seasons and one partial one, so you can put eight of Schumacher's years against those, beat them, and still have so much more. It's another case of one career being denser, but the other having more. Schumacher is through to the final.

Sebastian Vettel - Jim Clark
Clark has win rate .35-.27, Vettel has podium rate .50-.44. Clark of course wins on poles, but that isn't worth two championships. Was Clark better? Sure. Probably. What does that even mean for two drivers who never drove similar cars? But in terms of pure statistical achievement, more championships beats more poles.

Bronze medal match
Juan Manuel Fangio - Jim Clark
A measly two championships and Clark doesn't even win any of the percentage stuff. Fangio takes third.

Final
Michael Schumacher - Sebastian Vettel
Schumacher takes win rate .30-.27. They tie on podiums. Vettel has poles .29-.22. Obviously if you take out Schumacher's time at Mercedes it'll look a bit better for him, but if you put in Vettel's future career, the feather writes a big question mark by itself and the ink starts to boil. So it's pretty close, except of course for Schumacher's extra three championships. Maybe I'll have to come back to this in ten years and reverse my decision, but as of 2015... Michael Schumacher has the best stats of any F1 driver. What a surprise.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 26 Nov 2015, 22:44

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:Quarterfinals
Michael Schumacher - Nelson Piquet
Er... Piquet has more... er. I'm sure he has more something.

Piquet has won more races in the Benetton B191 than Schumacher has. Also, he has more wins in a turbocharged car, has beaten more moustachioed teammates, won more races at Long Beach, has more sons that have raced in F1 and...

Piquet has more 4th places than Schumacher. That's kind of interesting, I guess.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 27 Nov 2015, 02:52

What you need to do is measure each driver's achievements as an average of career length, so it's completely equal. At the moment, you're picking Vettel over Clark, Schumi over Fangio because they essentially had more years in the sport with which to achieve their dominance in stats.

If you look at it like that, then Fangio wins easily. His proportion of titles to the number of years he competed is without parallel. Conversely, Vettel would trump Prost because he's won his 4 titles so quickly in his career. In fact, I suspect that it would be quite close between Vettel and Fangio.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 28 Nov 2015, 00:06

And now for something completely different...

Highest undecided drivers' championship position going into the final round of the season

1950 - 1st between Juan Manuel Fangio (26 pts), Luigi Fagioli (24 pts) and Giuseppe Farina (22 pts). Farina won.
1951 - 1st between Juan Manuel Fangio (27 pts) and Alberto Ascari (25 pts). Fangio won.
1952 - 2nd between Giuseppe Farina (24 pts) and Piero Taruffi (21 pts). Farina won.
1953 - 2nd between Giuseppe Farina (24 pts), Juan Manuel Fangio (20.5 pts) and Mike Hawthorn (19 pts). Fangio won.
1954 - 3rd between Maurice Trintignant (17 pts), Mike Hawthorn (16.65 pts), Karl Kling (10 pts) and Hans Herrmann (8 pts). Hawthorn won.
1955 - 3rd between Maurice Trintignant (11.33 pts), Giuseppe Farina (10 pts), Eugenio Castellotti (8 pts), Roberto Mieres (7 pts), Luigi Musso (6 pts), Karl Kling (5 pts), Jean Behra (3 pts) and Piero Taruffi (3 pts). Castellotti won.
1956 - 1st between Juan Manuel Fangio (30 pts) and Peter Collins (22 pts). Fangio won.
1957 - 2nd between Stirling Moss (17 pts), Luigi Musso (16 pts), Mike Hawthorn (13 pts), Tony Brooks (10 pts) and Harry Schell (9 pts). Moss won.
1958 - 1st between Mike Hawthorn (40 pts) and Stirling Moss (32 pts). Hawthorn won.
1959 - 1st between Jack Brabham (31 pts), Stirling Moss (25.5 pts) and Tony Brooks (23 pts). Brabham won.
1960 - 3rd between Phil Hill (15 pts), Innes Ireland (12 pts), Stirling Moss (11 pts), Olivier Gendebien (10 pts), Wolfgang von Trips (10 pts) and Jim Clark (8 pts). Moss won.
1961 - 3rd between Stirling Moss (21 pts) and Dan Gurney (15 pts). Moss won.
1962 - 1st between Graham Hill (39 pts) and Jim Clark (30 pts). Hill won.
1963 - 2nd between Richie Ginther (29 pts), Graham Hill (25 pts) and John Surtees (22 pts). Hill won.
1964 - 1st between Graham Hill (39 pts), John Surtees (34 pts) and Jim Clark (30 pts). Surtees won.
1965 - 4th between Dan Gurney (19 pts), Lorenzo Bandini (13 pts) and Bruce McLaren (10 pts). Gurney won.
1966 - 2nd between Jochen Rindt (22 pts), John Surtees (19 pts), Graham Hill (17 pts), Jim Clark (16 pts) and Jackie Stewart (14 pts). Surtees won.
1967 - 1st between Denny Hulme (47 pts) and Jack Brabham (42 pts). Hulme won.
1968 - 1st between Graham Hill (39 pts), Jackie Stewart (36 pts) and Denny Hulme (33 pts). Hill won.
1969 - 2nd between Jacky Ickx (31 pts), Bruce McLaren (26 pts) and Jochen Rindt (22 pts). Ickx won.
1970 - 2nd between Jacky Ickx (31 pts), Clay Regazzoni (27 pts), Jackie Stewart (25 pts) and Jack Brabham (25 pts). Ickx won.
1971 - 3rd between Jacky Ickx (19 pts), François Cevert (17 pts), Emerson Fittipaldi (16 pts), Mario Andretti (12 pts) and Clay Regazzoni (12 pts). Cevert won.
1972 - 2nd between Jackie Stewart (36 pts) and Denny Hulme (35 pts). Stewart won.
1973 - 2nd between Emerson Fittipaldi (54 pts) and François Cevert (47 pts). Fittipaldi won. Yeah...
1974 - 1st between Emerson Fittipaldi (52 pts), Clay Regazzoni (52 pts) and Jody Scheckter (45 pts). Fittipaldi won.
1975 - 2nd between Emerson Fittipaldi (39 pts) and Carlos Reutemann (37 pts). Fittipaldi won.
1976 - 1st between Niki Lauda (68 pts) and James Hunt (65 pts). Hunt won.
1977 - 2nd between Jody Scheckter (55 pts) and Mario Andretti (47 pts). Scheckter won.
1978 - 2nd between Ronnie Peterson (51 pts), Carlos Reutemann (44 pts) and Niki Lauda (44 pts). Peterson did not participate. Peterson won.
1979 - 3rd between Alan Jones (40 pts) and Jacques Laffite (36 pts). Jones won.
1980 - 3rd between Carlos Reutemann (40 pts) and Jacques Laffite (32 pts). Reutemann won.
1981 - 1st between Carlos Reutemann (49 pts), Nelson Piquet (48 pts) and Jacques Laffite (43 pts). Piquet won.
1982 - 1st between Keke Rosberg (42 pts) and John Watson (33 pts). Rosberg won.
1983 - 1st between Alain Prost (57 pts), Nelson Piquet (55 pts) and René Arnoux (49 pts). Piquet won.
1984 - 1st between Niki Lauda (66 pts) and Alain Prost (62.5 pts). Lauda won.
1985 - 3rd between Ayrton Senna (38 pts), Elio de Angelis (33 pts), Nigel Mansell (31 pts) and Keke Rosberg (31 pts). Rosberg won.
1986 - 1st between Nigel Mansell (70 pts), Alain Prost (64 pts) and Nelson Piquet (63 pts). Prost won.
1987 - 2nd between Nigel Mansell (61 pts) and Ayrton Senna (57 pts). Mansell did not participate. Mansell won.
1988 - 4th between Thierry Boutsen (29 pts) and Michele Alboreto (24 pts). Boutsen won.
1989 - 3rd between Nigel Mansell (38 pts) and Riccardo Patrese (36 pts). Patrese won.
1990 - 3rd between Gerhard Berger (40 pts), Nelson Piquet (35 pts), Thierry Boutsen (32 pts) and Nigel Mansell (31 pts). Piquet won.
1991 - 5th between Alain Prost (34 pts) and Nelson Piquet (25 pts). Prost did not participate. Prost won.
1992 - 2nd between Riccardo Patrese (56 pts), Ayrton Senna (50 pts) and Michael Schumacher (47 pts). Patrese won.
1993 - 2nd between Damon Hill (65 pts) and Ayrton Senna (63 pts). Senna won.
1994 - 1st between Michael Schumacher (92 pts) and Damon Hill (91 pts). Schumacher won.
1995 - 3rd between David Coulthard (49 pts), Johnny Herbert (45 pts) and Jean Alesi (42 pts). Coulthard won.
1996 - 1st between Damon Hill (87 pts) and Jacques Villeneuve (78 pts). Hill won.
1997 - 1st between Michael Schumacher (78 pts) and Jacques Villeneuve (77 pts). Villeneuve won.
1998 - 1st between Mika Häkkinen (90 pts) and Michael Schumacher (86 pts). Häkkinen won.
1999 - 1st between Eddie Irvine (70 pts) and Mika Häkkinen (66 pts). Häkkinen won.
2000 - 3rd between David Coulthard (67 pts) and Rubens Barrichello (58 pts). Coulthard won.
2001 - 2nd between David Coulthard (61 pts) and Rubens Barrichello 54 pts). Coulthard won.
2002 - 3rd between Juan Pablo Montoya (47 pts), Ralf Schumacher (42 pts) and David Coulthard (41 pts). Montoya won.
2003 - 1st between Michael Schumacher (92 pts) and Kimi Räikkönen (83 pts). Schumacher won.
2004 - 4th between Fernando Alonso (54 pts), Juan Pablo Montoya (48 pts) and Jarno Trulli (46 pts). Alonso won.
2005 - 3rd between Michael Schumacher (62 pts), Juan Pablo Montoya (60 pts) and Giancarlo Fisichella (53 pts). Schumacher won.
2006 - 1st between Fernando Alonso (126 pts) and Michael Schumacher (116 pts). Alonso won.
2007 - 1st between Lewis Hamilton (107 pts), Fernando Alonso (103 pts) and Kimi Räikkönen (100 pts). Räikkönen won.
2008 - 1st between Lewis Hamilton (94 pts) and Felipe Massa (87 pts). Hamilton won.
2009 - 2nd between Sebastian Vettel (74 pts) and Rubens Barrichello (72 pts). Vettel won
2010 - 1st between Fernando Alonso (246 pts), Mark Webber (238 pts), Sebastian Vettel (231 pts) and Lewis Hamilton (222 pts). Vettel won.
2011 - 2nd between Jenson Button (255 pts), Fernando Alonso (245 pts) and Mark Webber (233 pts). Button won.
2012 - 1st between Sebastian Vettel (273 pts) and Fernando Alonso (260 pts). Vettel won.
2013 - 3rd between Lewis Hamilton (187 pts) and Mark Webber (181 pts). Webber won.
2014 - 1st between Lewis Hamilton (334 pts) and Nico Rosberg (317 pts). Hamilton won.
2015 - 4th between Valtteri Bottas (136 pts), Kimi Räikkönen (135 pts) and Felipe Massa (117 pts).

Additional notes

- Bill Vukovich was in mathematical contention for 3rd place in 1954, but was not entered for the Spanish Grand Prix.
- Bob Sweikert, Jimmy Davies, Tony Bettenhausen, Paul Russo, Paul Frère and Johnny Thomson were all also mathematically in contention for 3rd place in 1955, but none of them were entered for the Italian Grand Prix.
- Jim Rathmann and Richie Ginther were mathematically in contention for 3rd place in 1960, but neither of them were entered for the US Grand Prix.
- Phil Hill was only one point ahead of Wolfgang von Trips in the battle for the 1961 world title, but due to the latter's tragic demise on the first lap at Monza Hill won prematurely.
- Richie Ginther was also in contention for the runner-up spot in 1961, but Ferrari's decision not to enter the US Grand Prix in the wake of von Trips' death left the American unable to take part in his home race for the second year running.
- John Surtees was also in the fight for 4th place in 1965, but he missed the last two rounds after he was injured in a sportscar race at Mosport.
- Didier Pironi was also in mathematical contention for the 1982 world title, but his career-ending injury at Hockenheim ensured he would not be able to overhaul the points deficit to Rosberg in Las Vegas.
- Prost was still in contention for 4th place before Ferrari fired him in 1991. Half-points would have rendered both his and Piquet's challenges mathematically impossible anyway.
- Räikkönen was also in contention for the 3rd place spot in 2013, but his back injury prevented him from partaking in the final two rounds.

WCC battles will be covered in a separate post below.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 28 Nov 2015, 06:15

Simtek wrote:Räikkönen was also in contention for the 3rd place spot in 2013, but his back injury prevented him from partaking in the final two rounds.

Yeah... back injury....

Post by **Nuppiz** » 28 Nov 2015, 12:25

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
Simtek wrote:Räikkönen was also in contention for the 3rd place spot in 2013, but his back injury prevented him from partaking in the final two rounds.

Yeah... back injury....

It's confirmed he did have an injury and it required surgery so he could continue his career without severe pain. What is up to debate though is whether or not he needed to have it operated before the end of the season or if he just wanted to bail out from Lotus earlier.

Fetzie · Post by **Fetzie** » 28 Nov 2015, 12:33

Nuppiz wrote:
UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
Simtek wrote:Räikkönen was also in contention for the 3rd place spot in 2013, but his back injury prevented him from partaking in the final two rounds.

Yeah... back injury....

It's confirmed he did have an injury and it required surgery so he could continue his career without severe pain. What is up to debate though is whether or not he needed to have it operated before the end of the season or if he just wanted to bail out from Lotus earlier.

I dunno, his doctors might have said "you must have the surgery now or you have a significant risk of never being able to drive in F1 again". That said, the idea of Kimi wanting out that he'd lie about when he needed to have surgery to get out of driving for Lotus isn't unthinkable, especially given the circumstances.

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 28 Nov 2015, 12:42

If my memory serves me well, Enstone have been in financial difficulties for like 3 and a half years, and even with the Raikkonen / Grosjean pairing, the team was in deep financial... issues. It was just a matter of how soon Kimi was going to get out of there.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 28 Nov 2015, 14:13

Yeah, there was the issue of Lotus being unable to pay Kimi's salary, which just so happened to coincide with his injury, but anyway, on to part 2!

Highest undecided constructors' championship position going into the final round of the season

1958 - 5th between Maserati (6 pts) and Lotus-Climax (3 pts). Maserati won.
1959 - 4th between Lotus-Climax (3 pts), Cooper-Maserati (0 pts), Maserati (0 pts), Porsche (0 pts), Kurtis Kraft-Offenhauser (0 pts), Cooper-OSCA (0 pts), Tec-Mec-Maserati (0 pts) and Connaught-Alta (0 pts). Lotus-Climax won.
1960 - 4th between BRM (6 pts), Cooper-Maserati (3 pts), Cooper-Castellotti (3 pts), Maserati (0 pts) and Scarab (0 pts). BRM won.
1961 - 2nd between Lotus-Climax (24 pts) and Porsche (17 pts). Lotus-Climax won.
1962 - 1st between BRM (39 pts) and Lotus-Climax (36 pts). BRM won.
1963 - 3rd between Ferrari (24 pts), Brabham-Climax (24 pts) and Cooper-Climax (24 pts). Brabham-Climax won.
1964 - 1st between Ferrari (43 pts), BRM (42 pts) and Lotus-Climax (36 pts). Ferrari won.
1965 - 3rd between Ferrari (26 pts) and Brabham-Climax (24 pts). Brabham-Climax won.
1966 - 3rd between Cooper-Maserati (24 pts) and BRM (22 pts). Cooper-Maserati won.
1967 - 2nd between Lotus-Ford (35 pts) and Cooper-Maserati (27 pts). Lotus-Ford won.
1968 - 2nd between Matra-Ford (45 pts) and McLaren-Ford (43 pts). McLaren-Ford won.
1969 - 2nd between Lotus-Ford (47 pts) and Brabham-Ford (45 pts). Brabham-Ford won.
1970 - 2nd between Ferrari (46 pts) and March-Ford (45 pts). Ferrari won.
1971 - 2nd between Ferrari (32 pts), BRM (30 pts) and March-Ford (30 pts). BRM won.
1972 - 2nd between McLaren-Ford (45 pts) and Tyrrell-Ford (42 pts). Tyrrell-Ford won.
1973 - 1st between Lotus-Ford (83 pts) and Tyrrell-Ford (82 pts). Lotus-Ford won.
1974 - 1st between McLaren-Ford (70 pts) and Ferrari (65 pts). McLaren-Ford won.
1975 - 2nd between Brabham-Ford (54 pts) and McLaren-Ford (47 pts). Brabham-Ford won.
1976 - 2nd between McLaren-Ford (70 pts) and Tyrrell-Ford (65 pts). McLaren-Ford won.
1977 - 2nd between Lotus-Ford (62 pts) and Wolf-Ford (55 pts). Lotus-Ford won.
1978 - 2nd between Brabham-Alfa Romeo (53 pts) and Ferrari (49 pts). Ferrari won.
1979 - 2nd between Williams-Ford (75 pts) and Ligier-Ford (61 pts). Williams-Ford won.
1980 - 2nd between Ligier-Ford (60 pts) and Brabham-Ford (55 pts). Ligier-Ford won.
1981 - 2nd between Brabham-Ford (59 pts) and Renault (48 pts). Brabham-Ford won.
1982 - 1st between Ferrari (74 pts), McLaren-Ford (63 pts) and Renault (59 pts). Ferrari won.
1983 - 1st between Ferrari (89 pts) and Renult (78 pts). Ferrari won.
1984 - 2nd between Ferrari (54.5 pts) and Lotus-Renault (45 pts). Ferrari won.
1985 - 1st between McLaren-TAG (90 pts) and Ferrari (80 pts). McLaren-TAG won.
1986 - 4th between Ferrari (33 pts), Ligier-Renault (29 pts) and Benetton-BMW (19 pts). Ferrari won.
1987 - 2nd between McLaren-TAG (76 pts) and Lotus-Honda (64 pts). McLaren-TAG won.
1988 - 4th between Arrows-Megatron (20 pts), March-Judd (19 pts), Williams-Judd (17 pts), Lotus-Honda (17 pts) and Tyrrell-Ford (5 pts). Arrows-Megatron won.
1989 - 2nd between Williams-Renault (64 pts) and Ferrari (59 pts). Williams-Renault won.
1990 - 3rd between Benetton-Ford (62 pts) and Williams-Renault (54 pts). Benetton-Ford won.
1991 - 1st between McLaren-Honda (132 pts) and Williams-Renault (121 pts). McLaren-Honda won.
1992 - 2nd between McLaren-Honda (89 pts) and Benetton-Ford (81 pts). McLaren-Honda won.
1993 - 2nd between McLaren-Ford (74 pts) and Benetton-Ford (72 pts). McLaren-Ford won.
1994 - 1st between Williams-Renault (108 pts) and Benetton-Ford (103 pts). Williams-Renault won.
1995 - 4th between McLaren-Mercedes (27 pts), Jordan-Peugeot (21 pts), Ligier-Mugen-Honda (18 pts) and Sauber-Ford (18 pts). McLaren-Mercedes won.
1996 - 2nd between Benetton-Renault (65 pts) and Ferrari (64 pts). Ferrari won.
1997 - 4th between McLaren-Mercedes (47 pts) and Jordan-Peugeot (33 pts). McLaren-Mercedes won.
1998 - 1st between McLaren-Mercedes (142 pts) and Ferrari (127 pts). McLaren-Mercedes won.
1999 - 1st between Ferrari (118 pts) and McLaren-Mercedes (114 pts). Ferrari won.
2000 - 1st between Ferrari (156 pts) and McLaren-Mercedes (143 pts). Ferrari won.
2001 - 4th between Sauber-Petronas (21 pts), Jordan-Honda (19 pts), BAR-Honda (17 pts), Benetton-Renault (10 pts) and Jaguar-Cosworth (9 pts). Sauber-Petronas won.
2002 - 4th between Renault (22 pts), Sauber-Petronas (11 pts), Jaguar-Cosworth (8 pts), BAR-Honda (7 pts) and Jordan-Honda (7 pts). Renault won.
2003 - 1st between Ferrari (147 pts) and Williams-BMW (144 pts). Ferrari won.
2004 - 2nd between BAR-Honda (116 pts) and Renault (100 pts). BAR-Honda won.
2005 - 1st between Renault (176 pts) and McLaren-Mercedes (174 pts). Renault won.
2006 - 1st between Renault (195 pts) and Ferrari (186 pts). Renault won.
2007 - 4th between Williams-Toyota (28 pts), Red Bull-Renault (24 pts) and Toyota (12 pts). Williams-Toyota won.
2008 - 1st between Ferrari (156 pts) and McLaren-Mercedes (145 pts). Ferrari won.
2009 - 3rd between McLaren-Mercedes (71 pts), Ferrari (70 pts) and Toyota (54.5 pts). McLaren-Mercedes won.
2010 - 2nd between McLaren-Mercedes (421 pts) and Ferrari (389 pts). McLaren-Mercedes won.
2011 - 5th between Renault (72 pts), Force India-Mercedes (57 pts), Sauber-Ferrari (42 pts) and Toro Rosso-Ferrari (41 pts). Renault won.
2012 - 2nd between Ferrari (367 pts) and McLaren-Mercedes (353 pts). Ferrari won.
2013 - 2nd between Mercedes (348 pts), Ferrari (333 pts) and Lotus-Renault (315 pts). Mercedes won.
2014 - 3rd between Williams-Mercedes (254 pts) and Ferrari (210 pts). Williams-Mercedes won.
2015 - 6th between Lotus-Mercedes (76 pts), Toro Rosso-Renault (67 pts) and Sauber-Ferrari (36 pts).

Additional notes

- It was mathematically possible for any constructor outside the top four to take 5th place in 1958, but Maserati and Lotus were the only ones present in Morocco.
- It was mathematically possible for any constructor outside the top three to take 4th place in 1959, but the ones mentioned above were the only ones present in the US. The same goes for 1960.
- Lotus and Ferrari would have been battling for the runner-up spot in 1960, but Ferrari elected not to send cars across the Atlantic for the final round.

Peteroli34 · Post by **Peteroli34** » 28 Nov 2015, 21:59

We know that Michael Schumacher has the most wins in F1 but do we know who has scored the most 17th place finishes in F1. As i cant find that information i compiled it myself

most finishes in the same Position

1. Micheal Schumacher - 91
2. Micheal Schumacher - 43
3. Kimi Raikkonen - 29
4. Fernando Alonso/ Gerhard Berger - 26
5. Jenson Button - 27
6. Felipe Massa - 24
7. Johnny Herbert - 17
8 Jenson Button - 19
9. Felipe Massa - 17
10 Rubens Barrichello - 20
11. Sergio Perez - 16
12. Rubens Barrichello - 15
13. Adrian Sutil - 13
14. Pastor Maldonado - 12
15. Rubens Barrichello/Jenson Button - 6
16. Heikki Kovalainen/Takuma Sato/Adrian Sutil - 8
17. Max Chilton/Adrian Sutil - 10
18. Timo Glock - 10
19. Max Chilton - 8
20. Jerome D'ambrosio - 4
21. Narain Kartikeyan - 5
22. Alan Brown/Christian Klien/Vitantonio Luizzi/Narain Kartkeyan -1
23. Narain Kartikeyan - 2
24. Narain Kartikeyan - 1

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 29 Nov 2015, 00:33

So Narain Karthikeyan holds the most records (tied or otherwise)?

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 29 Nov 2015, 15:23

Nico Rosberg's winning history:
2006-2011 - no wins
2012 - 1 win
2013 - 2 wins
2014 - 5 wins
2015 - 6 wins

Rosberg wins more races every year, so by that rule he should get at least 7 race wins next year?

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 29 Nov 2015, 15:28

Rob Dylan wrote:Nico Rosberg's winning history:
2006-2011 - no wins
2012 - 1 win
2013 - 2 wins
2014 - 5 wins
2015 - 6 wins

Rosberg wins more races every year, so by that rule he should get at least 7 race wins next year?

I predict 9 (and no im not doing an avatar bet)

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 01 Dec 2015, 01:14

I calculated these a while back but kept forgetting to post them.

The Max Chilton Award for most race classifications in a season

1950 - Giuseppe Farina, Luigi Fagioli and Louis Rosier (5/7)
1951 - Juan Manuel Fangio, Alberto Ascari and Louis Rosier (6/8)
1952 - Alberto Ascari and Giuseppe Farina (6/8)
1953 - Mike Hawthorn (8/9)
1954 - Juan Manuel Fangio (8/9)
1955 - Juan Manuel Fangio, Stirling Moss and Jean Behra (5/7)
1956 - Jean Behra (6/8)
1957 - Juan Manuel Fangio (6/8)
1958 - Mike Hawthorn and Roy Salvadori (8/11)
1959 - Maurice Trintignant (8/9)
1960 - Wolfgang von Trips (8/10)
1961 - Dan Gurney (8/8)
1962 - Graham Hill (9/9)
1963 - Jim Clark (10/10)
1964 - Richie Ginther (10/10)
1965 - Lorenzo Bandini (9/10)
1966 - Jack Brabham and Jochen Rindt (6/9)
1967 - Denny Hulme (9/11)
1968 - Graham Hill, Jackie Stewart and Denny Hulme (8/12)
1969 - Jean-Pierre Beltoise (9/11)
1970 - Henri Pescarolo (10/13)
1971 - Jackie Stewart and Ronnie Peterson (9/11)
1972 - Denny Hulme and Ronnie Peterson (10/12)
1973 - Denny Hulme (14/15)
1974 - Emerson Fittipaldi, Clay Regazzoni and Graham Hill (12/15)
1975 - Niki Lauda (13/14)
1976 - Jody Scheckter, Clay Regazzoni, Jochen Mass and Tom Pryce (12/16)
1977 - Carlos Reutemann (13/17)
1978 - Jacques Laffite (14/16)
1979 - Jody Scheckter (13/15)
1980 - Alan Jones and Carlos Reutemann (11/14)
1981 - Carlos Reutemann and Alan Jones (12/15)
1982 - Keke Rosberg, John Watson and Michele Alboreto (11/16)
1983 - Alain Prost (12/15)
1984 - Elio de Angelis and René Arnoux (12/16)
1985 - Alain Prost and Thierry Boutsen (12/16)
1986 - Alain Prost (13/16)
1987 - Nelson Piquet and Jonathan Palmer (13/16)
1988 - Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost (14/16)
1989 - Alain Prost (13/16)
1990 - Nelson Piquet, Gerhard Berger and Nicola Larini (13/16)
1991 - Ayrton Senna (15/16)
1992 - Michele Alboreto (14/16)
1993 - Alain Prost (15/16)
1994 - Olivier Panis (14/16)
1995 - Michael Schumacher and Johnny Herbert (13/17)
1996 - Jacques Villeneuve and Mika Häkkinen (13/16)
1997 - Jean Alesi (14/17)
1998 - Mika Häkkinen, Michael Schumacher, Eddie Irvine and Jacques Villeneuve (13/16)
1999 - Eddie Irvine (15/16)
2000 - Mika Häkkinen and David Coulthard (14/17)
2001 - Jean Alesi (16/17)
2002 - Michael Schumacher (17/17)
2003 - Michael Schumacher (15/16)
2004 - Michael Schumacher, Rubens Barrichello and Giancarlo Fisichella (17/18)
2005 - Tiago Monteiro (18/19)
2006 - Fernando Alonso, Michael Schumacher, Felipe Massa and Giancarlo Fisichella (16/18)
2007 - Lewis Hamilton, Fernando Alonso and Heikki Kovalainen (16/17)
2008 - Nick Heidfeld (18/18)
2009 - Jenson Button, Rubens Barrichello, Nico Rosberg and Giancarlo Fisichella (16/17)
2010 - Fernando Alonso and Felipe Massa (18/19)
2011 - Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso and Paul di Resta (18/19)
2012 - Kimi Räikkönen (20/20)
2013 - Jenson Button, Sergio Pérez and Max Chilton (19/19)
2014 - Valtteri Bottas, Jenson Button, Kevin Magnussen and Kimi Räikkönen (18/19)
2015 - Lewis Hamilton, Nico Rosberg, Sebastian Vettel and Sergio Pérez (18/19)

Peteroli34 · Post by **Peteroli34** » 01 Dec 2015, 23:29

Following on from which driver has finished in the same position the most times, this time its which driver has started from the same position the most time. The numbers dont include the Indy 500

1. Michael Schumacher - 68
2. Alain Prost - 53
3. Michael Schumacher - 53
4. Gerhard Berger - 37
5. Fernado Alonso - 35
6. Jean Alesi - 26
7. Nico Rosberg, Jarno Trulli - 21
8. Jarno Trulli - 23
9. Jarno Trulli - 20
10. Jenson Button - 20
11. Olivier Panis, Mark Webber - 19
12. Olivier Panis - 20
13. Rubens Barrichello - 19
14. Andrea De Cesaris - 19
15. Nick Heidfeld - 19
16. Nick Heidfeld - 16
17. Jenson Button, Giancarlo Fisichella - 16
18. Andrea De Cesaris- 18
19. Heikki Kovalianen, Jos Verstappen - 16
20. Jarno Trulli - 17
21. Timo Glock - 17
22. Tarso Marques - 15
23. Piercarlo Ghinzani - 10
24. Narain Kartikeyan, Jonathan Palmer - 11
25. Piercarlo Ghinzani - 11
26. Piercarlo Ghinzani - 8
27.Piero Carini, Kurt Adolf, Tim Parnell, Paul Pietsch, Eitel Cantoni, Jack Fairman, Lance Macklin, Luigi Villoresi, Louis Rosier, Tony Marsh, Hubert Hahne- 1
28. Wili Krakau, Theo Helfrich, Wolfgang Siedel, Gino Bianco, Roy Salvadori, Giraud Cabantous, Onofre Marimom, Jack Brabham, Massimo Natili, Silvio Moser - 1
29.Ernst Klodwig, Wolfgang Siedel, Renato Pirrochi, Lance Macklin, Louis Chiron, Hans Stuck, Rodney Nuckey, Tim Parnell, Gerhard Mitter - 1
30. Gunther Bechem - 2
31. Ludwig Fischer, Ernst Loof, Brain Naylor, Toulo De Grafferied, Louis Rosier- 1
32. Johnny Claes, Ernst Klodwig, Roberto Lippi, Harry Schell, Roberto Mieres - 1
33. Erwin Bauer - 1
34. Oswald Karch - 1

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 14 Dec 2015, 10:39

Seeing as Mr Alguersuari has retired (an event I have apparently been completely oblivious to this whole time!), what's the youngest a driver has been at their final F1 race. I mean, Jaime was only 21, so he has to be close to the youngest, right?

novitopoli · Post by **novitopoli** » 14 Dec 2015, 10:57

Rob Dylan wrote:Seeing as Mr Alguersuari has retired (an event I have apparently been completely oblivious to this whole time!), what's the youngest a driver has been at their final F1 race. I mean, Jaime was only 21, so he has to be close to the youngest, right?

Esteban Tuero was 20 years, 6 months and 10 days old at his last race (Japan 1998): he was the youngest driver to end his Formula 1 career, as StatsF1 points out. Ricardo Rodriguez comes a close second, being 20 years, 7 months and 2 days old at the 1962 Italian GP, before losing his life in a fatal accident later that year.

MorbidelliObese · Post by **MorbidelliObese** » 14 Dec 2015, 20:54

Off the top of my head I figured Mike Thackwell had to be a contender, but turns out he came back for some one-offs in 1984, which would make him 23 by my rough calculations.

AustralianStig · Post by **AustralianStig** » 14 Dec 2015, 21:40

Google didn't help me much, so figured I'd post it here. I'm simulating an alternate history of F1 (just for my own enjoyment, I may post one day) using RNGs, plus my Excel simulator I created for my NewF1 series I used to run. Due to an extremely unlikely occurrence (less likely than 1%, thanks RNG!), Pal Varhaug is making his F1 debut for Williams at the 2014 British GP. I'm about halfway through simulating the race, and he's currently running 3rd, on a drying track and the Williams is coming alive, setting FLs, and unless he does something silly is very much within a chance of winning the race.

TL;DR - Who was the last driver to win on debut? I'm guessing plenty of drivers would have managed it in the 50s, but it seems a rather tough ask for the decades following.

MorbidelliObese · Post by **MorbidelliObese** » 14 Dec 2015, 21:46

AustralianStig wrote:Google didn't help me much, so figured I'd post it here. I'm simulating an alternate history of F1 (just for my own enjoyment, I may post one day) using RNGs, plus my Excel simulator I created for my NewF1 series I used to run. Due to an extremely unlikely occurrence (less likely than 1%, thanks RNG!), Pal Varhaug is making his F1 debut for Williams at the 2014 British GP. I'm about halfway through simulating the race, and he's currently running 3rd, on a drying track and the Williams is coming alive, setting FLs, and unless he does something silly is very much within a chance of winning the race.

TL;DR - Who was the last driver to win on debut? I'm guessing plenty of drivers would have managed it in the 50s, but it seems a rather tough ask for the decades following.

That sounds interesting, working on my own F1 race/season simulator but it's a bit unwieldy I think I've bitten off more than I can chew :s

But on subject, I think Giancarlo Baghetti is the only one (he also won his first two non-championship races prior to that one). Unless you count Giuseppe Farina - which I don't

There are three pole winners on debut IIRC - Mario Andretti, Carlos Reutemann and Jacques Villeneuve.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 14 Dec 2015, 21:46

AustralianStig wrote:TL;DR - Who was the last driver to win on debut? I'm guessing plenty of drivers would have managed it in the 50s, but it seems a rather tough ask for the decades following.

Giancarlo Baghetti in France 1961. The only ones before him were Giuseppe Farina and Johnnie Parsons in Britain and Indianapolis 1950, respectively.

Peteroli34 · Post by **Peteroli34** » 18 Dec 2015, 01:06

Drivers who have entered one full season in F1

By full season i mean entered every event on the calendar. drivers who fall to start or fail to qualify count in the entry also included is the number of events the driver entered before and after that one season.
Drivers whose only full season is 2015 are not included, If a driver entered the weekend as a practice only driver it doesnt count as a entry.

Sterling Moss - 1961. Before - 58, After - 0
Trevor Taylor - 1962. Before - 2, After - 18
Carel Godin De Beaufort - 1962, Before - 12, After - 10
Rolf Stommelen - 1970, Before - 1, After - 49
Peter Gethin - 1971, Before - 7, After - 13
Andrea De Adamich - 1972, Before - 18, After - 6
Tim Schenken - 1972, Before- 4, After - 24
Wilson Fittipaldi - 1973, Before- 10, Afte- 13
Gunnar Nilsson - 1977, Before- 15, After - 0
Alex Ribeiro- 1977, Before-1 , After - 2
Beppe Gabbiani- 1981, Before-2, After - 0
Brian Henton - 1982, Before- 21, After - 0
Raul Boesel - 1983, Before - 15, After - 0
Maruo Baldi - 1983, Before-15, After - 11
Danny Sullivan - 1983, Before- 0, After - 0
Carrado Fabi - 1983, Before - 0, After - 3
Francois Hesnault - 1984, Before -0, After - 5
Johnny Dumfries - 1986, Before - 0, After - 0
Adrian Campos - 1987, Before - 0, After- 5
Julian Bailey - 1988, Before - 0, After - 4
Oscar Larrauri - 1988, Before - 0, After - 5
Pierre Henri Raphanel - 1989, Before - 1, After - 0
Yannick Dalmas - 1990, Before - 32, After- 2
Eric Bernard - 1990, Before - 2, After - 29
Emanuaele Pirro - 1991, Before - 24, After - 0
Eric Van Der Poele - 1991, Before - 0, After- 13
Karl Wendlinger - 1993, Before - 16. After - 10
David Brabham - 1994, Before - 14, After - 0
Paul Belmondo - 1994, Before - 11, After - 0
Luca Badoer - 1995, Before - 14, After - 27
Taki Inoue - 1995, Before - 0, After - 0
Andrea Montermini - 1995, Before - 1, After - 11
Pedro Lamy - 1996, Before - 16, After - 0
Jan Magnussen - 1997, Before - 1, After - 7
Esteban Tuero - 1998, Before - 0, After - 0
Alex Zarnardi - 1999, Before - 28. After - 0
Ricardo Zonta - 2000, Before - 13, After - 7
Gaston Mazzacane - 2000, Before - 0, After - 4
Enrique Bernoldi - 2001, Before - 0, After -12
Allann Mcnish - 2002, Before - 0, After - 0
Justin Wilson - 2003, Before - 0, After - 0
Cristiano Da Matta - 2003, Before - 0, After - 12
Gimmaria Bruni - 2004, Before - 0, After - 0
HWNSBM- 2004, Before - 2, After - 0
Christian Klien - 2004, Before - 0, After - 31
Scott Speed - 2006, Before - 0, After -10
Anthony Davidson - 2007, Before- 3, After -4
Sebastian Bourdias - 2008, Before - 0, After -0
Nelson Piquet JR - 2008, Before - 0, After - 10
Lucas di Grassi - 2010, Before - 0, After -0
Jerome Dambrosio - 2011, Before - 0 , After -1
Bruno Senna - 2012, Before - 26, After - 0
Max Chilton - 2013, Before - 0, After - 16
Jules Bianchi - 2013, Before - 0, After - 15
Giedo Van Der Garde - 2013, Before - 0, After -0
Kevin Magnussen - 2014, Before - 0, After - 1

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 18 Dec 2015, 01:12

peteroli34 wrote:HWNSBM

He Whose Name Shall Be Mentioned? You mean we can say his name now? Alright! Zso-

*gets hit by a papaya*

Never mind.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 18 Dec 2015, 04:38

I'm sure Bourdais started 9 races after his full season and not 0. Especially interesting that Moss is on this list. But again not much of a surprise because he was constantly hopping from one team to another and back.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 18 Dec 2015, 09:03

This wrote:I'm sure Bourdais started 9 races after his full season and not 0. Especially interesting that Moss is on this list. But again not much of a surprise because he was constantly hopping from one team to another and back.

Moss is only on the list because of the Indy 500. Otherwise, he's done five full seasons.

Post by **tommykl** » 18 Dec 2015, 11:31

Also, I do believe you forgot Mike Hailwood, who had a full season in 1973, 24 entries before then and 11 after that...

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 18 Dec 2015, 20:27

Inoue also had one race with Simtek.

Basically from the list, following drivers have one full season and nothing else:
Danny Sullivan
Johnny Dumfries
Esteban Tuero
Gianmaria Bruni
Lucas di Grassi
Giedo van der Garde

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 19 Dec 2015, 14:14

In 1997 season, Schumacher and Villeneuve never shared a podium despite being championship contenders. I don't know but I believe this never happened before.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 19 Dec 2015, 14:36

Dj_bereta wrote:In 1997 season, Schumacher and Villeneuve never shared a podium despite being championship contenders. I don't know but I believe this never happened before.

Closest I can find is two instances in the 1950s, and even then there was a third contender that shared a podium with the other two:

1950 - Farina and Fangio never shared a podium, though they both shared a podium with Fagioli.
1959 - Brooks and Moss never shared a podium, though they both shared a podium with Brabham.

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 19 Dec 2015, 17:22

I remember looking back on 2008 and how Hamilton and Kovalainen (to my knowledge anyway) never shared a podium as teammates, even though they were fighting for the championship. Or at least one was. I dunno they were teammates for 2 full seasons in super cars so you'd expect at least one shared podium.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 21 Dec 2015, 07:39

Apparently Hermann Lang did two championship F1 races. This is an unusual F1 stat as far as I'm concerned.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 21 Dec 2015, 12:59

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:Apparently Hermann Lang did two championship F1 races. This is an unusual F1 stat as far as I'm concerned.

I guess you can say he didn't have a Lang career :geek:

I'll get my coat...

girry · Post by **girry** » 22 Dec 2015, 21:58

The Fernando Alonso Trophy for Illustrious Career Planning

This trophy gets awarded to drivers who chose to leave a team which would become World Champions the very next year.

José Froilán González - Ferrari 1951
González got hired by Enzo Ferrari mid way 1951, and promptly started causing serious headache to Alberto Ascari - winning the marquee's first World Championship race in the process. In retrospect, González' decision to follow Fangio to Maserati in 1952 was questionable, especially for Maserati only got their cars on track on the final round of the season...

Mike Hawthorn - Ferrari 1955
Having already left Ferrari after 1954 to sign for Jaguar and Vanwall, Hawthorn returned to Ferrari mid-1955 - only to soon leave for British cars for the second time, this time BRM - which turned out to be uncompetitive. Given how close Peter Collins was from taking the title, it's plausible to assume Hawthorn missed a real shot at the 1956 title here.

Stirling Moss & Cesare Perdisa - Maserati 1956
Another "victim" of patriotism, Moss chose to sign for Vanwall in 1957 despite a strong 1956 for the Italian team. Perhaps as an indication of what might have been, Moss drove a final race for Maserati in the first round of 1957 at Fangio's home soil Buenos Aires, where he beat the Argentinian for the pole in similar cars - only to have his race robbed by technical problems at the start, and title chances robbed by the Vanwall's technical woes until late in the season. On the other hand Perdisa, who signed for Ferrari, became a victim of the fatal accident claiming the life of his best friend Eugenio Castellotti - out of sympathy, the young Italian retired from racing altogether, having only made a single start for the Scuderia.

Roy Salvadori - Cooper 1958
Aston Martin, building their first Grand Prix car DBR4 for the 1959 season, got interested in the '58 Cooper duo of Roy Salvadori and Jack Brabham - and got verbal agreements for them to join the squad. Coventry Climax was able to lure Jack back with promises of a new 2.5 litre engine, but Salvadori, being a man of his word and honoured the agreement he had with his old pal Reg Parnell. Brabham, who in 1958 only scored three points compared to Salvadori's 15, went on to take the 1959 title in the revolutionary Cooper - whereas the DBR4 never scored a single point...

Tony Brooks - BRM 1961
An unsuccessful 1961 season for the BRM outfit prompted Brooks to retire from racing at only 29 years of age - this despite Brooks generally being the faster driver of himself and Graham Hill, who would enjoy the dominant BRM of 1962 and easily take the title.

Dan Gurney - Brabham 1965
"The only man who Jim Clark feared", Gurney was easily Brabham's best driver for '64 and '65 - well ahead of Jack Brabham and Denny Hulme. For 1966, Gurney chose to bring his all American team into Grand Prix racing - whereas Brabham and Hulme shared the honours of '66 and '67, Dan in his often fast but unreliable Eagle-Weslake only managed a single victory in two years...

Peter Revson & Jody Scheckter - McLaren 1973
Revson, having started to beat Hulme regularly, would not be happy to play second fiddle to Fittipaldi who was due to arrive with his Marlboro money in 1974, and chose to join the Shadow team in a #1 role instead, only to get killed in it early in the year. Scheckter, the part-time driver, opted for a full time Tyrrell ride instead of going on in the #3 car role at McLaren.

Emerson Fittipaldi - McLaren 1975
In late 1975 it was Emmo's turn to make a career defining error by moving to his brother's Copersucar team to form a combination that proved to be less than successful - leaving a seat open for James Hunt to take the 1976 title instead.

Carlos Reutemann - Ferrari 1978
Carlos, having assumed the lead driver's role for Ferrari in 1978 - beating the fast but error-prone Gilles Villeneuve 48 points to 17 - accepted Colin Chapman's offer to join the dominant Lotus the next year. What Carlos didn't consider was that by 1979, Ferrari and many other teams had already out-ground-effected the Lotus, leaving the winless Carlos watch how Gilles and Jody Scheckter diced it out for the title.

Riccardo Patrese & Nigel Mansell - Williams 1992
With Mansell, Prost and Senna all looking to join Williams for 1993, Patrese chose to make sure he had a ride for 1993 by signing for Benetton - it turned out that Patrese could have stayed at Williams, as only the contract with Prost materialized: Mansell didn't like the prospect of teaming up with Prost and Williams didn't like the salary Mansell demanded - prompting Nigel to sign for Newman/Haas at CART series - and Senna sticking with McLaren.

David Coulthard - Williams 1995
DC chose to leave Williams at the end of 1995, despite creeping closer and closer to Damon Hill, and went for the McLaren-Mercedes - Williams dominated entire 1996, whereas the McLaren was the definition of mediocrity.

Fernando Alonso - McLaren 2007
The 2007 season, having started so harmoniously, eventually escalated into a scale A mess in every front - prompting the Spaniard to leave McLaren, allowing rival Hamilton to snatch the 2008 title whereas Alonso battled his incompetitive car.

HM:s (retired from F1 / got released / sacked by the team)
Luigi Fagioli, 1950 Alfa Romeo (effectively retired, returned for one race in '51)
Maurice Trintignant, 1955 Ferrari (the only Ferrari winner of '55 continued to drive their sports cars, but had to settle for Vanwalls and Bugattis in F1)
Giuseppe Farina, 1955 Ferrari (struggled with recovering from an injury and retired from F1)
Luigi Villoresi, 1955 Ferrari (not retained by the Scuderia, went on to drive for privateers)
Maurice Trintignant, 1957 Ferrari (this time Ferrari abandoned Trintignant's services altogether)
Cliff Allison, 1960 Ferrari (got injured in Monaco for the rest of the year, Ferrari didn't retain his services for 1961)
Graham Hill, 1969 Lotus (Graham got severely injured in late 1969, prompting Colin Chapman to move him to a satellite Lotus team for 1970, believing Hill was no longer upto the task)
Reine Wisell, 1971 Lotus (sacked by Lotus at the end of the year in favor of Dave Walker, who scored no points in 1972 while Fittipaldi headed for the title; Chapman sacked Walker and hired Wisell for the two last races, but scored no points either)
Clay Regazzoni, 1976 Ferrari (despite being well liked in Ferrari, underperforming for two years got him replaced by Carlos Reutemann)
Clay Regazzoni, 1979 Williams (despite being Williams' first winner, Clay had to make room for Reutemann again as Jones had generally overshadowed him)
Ricardo Zunino, 1980 Brabham (sacked 7 races in for being very uncompetitive)
Alan Jones & Carlos Reutemann, 1981 Williams (Jones retired from F1, whereas Carlos kept going on into 1982 only to abruptly quit 2 races into the season, despite having raced well - thus allowing team mate Rosberg eventually collect the title)
John Watson, 1983 McLaren (was the stronger McLaren driver out of him and Lauda, which made him request for a salary Ron Dennis didn't like, which made Ron sign Alain Prost for his seat instead and Watson to retire from F1)
Niki Lauda, 1985 McLaren (retired for good after being trashed by Prost in 85)
Keke Rosberg, 1985 Williams (beat Mansell in '85, chose to quit from Williams and replaced Lauda at McLaren - arguably the '86 constructors' champion Williams' car could have suited his style better, what with Mansell getting a single blown tyre away from the title with it)
Stefan Johansson, 1987 McLaren (had proven in three winless years in top cars that he's not worth retaining over Ayrton Senna for 1988)
Alain Prost, 1989 McLaren (Ron Dennis chose Senna, leaving Alain with few options)
Riccardo Patrese, 1993 Benetton (generally outpaced by Schumacher, making Riccardo to retire from F1)
Jos Verstappen & JJ Lehto, 1994 Benetton (the error-prone Verstappen and the underperforming Lehto got dropped late in 1994 in favour of the more consistent Herbert)
Damon Hill, 1996 Williams (the 1996 champ got released by Williams in favour of Frentzen, signed for Arrows over more competitive rides for the salary)
Eddie Irvine, 1999 Ferrari (despite the title run, Ferrari had signed Barrichello for 2000 and Irvine settled for Jaguar)
Jarno Trulli, 2004 Renault (the Monaco winner got sacked by Briatore a couple of races before the end of 2004, having stopped performing mid-season)
Michael Schumacher, 2006 Ferrari (retired after 2006, though rumours later have questioned whether retiring was his own decision or caused by the internal politics of Ferrari)

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 28 Jan 2016, 21:32

2016 will (I think) mark the first time since 1996 that two sons of F1 drivers are in the same team.

Post by **tommykl** » 28 Jan 2016, 21:36

Simtek wrote:2016 will (I think) mark the first time since 1996 that two sons of F1 drivers are in the same team.

FALSE.

2008-2009, Nico Rosberg, Kazuki Nakajima

To be fair though, I think even Kazuki Nakajima forgot that Kazuki Nakajima was once an F1 driver.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 28 Jan 2016, 21:46

tommykl wrote:
Simtek wrote:2016 will (I think) mark the first time since 1996 that two sons of F1 drivers are in the same team.

FALSE.

2008-2009, Nico Rosberg, Kazuki Nakajima

To be fair though, I think even Kazuki Nakajima forgot that Kazuki Nakajima was once an F1 driver.

*commits Sudoku*

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 28 Jan 2016, 22:28

Something occurred to me recently that Fernando Alonso had swapped sides of the garage when he returned to McLaren

2007 Alonso, Hamilton
2008-9 Kovalainen, Hamilton
2010 -12 Button, Hamilton
2013 Button, Perez
2014 Button, Magnussen
2015- Button, Alonso

I looked back to other drivers returning to teams and I cannot find another driver that I can safely say swapped sides of the garage as I'm not sure whether Berger did so returning to Benetton in 1996 as both drivers changed