2016 Australian Grand Prix

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 19 Mar 2016, 11:12

A classic example of change for changes sake. Ok there were problems with the previous format, mainly Q3, but this has only made those problems worse!

At least Q1 was entertaining but they should give time to get everyone out on track before starting elimination. Maybe wait say 5 minutes before starting the clock? Make it that you can be either in the pits or the track when the clock starts but before it does, any lap times dont count. This could give the option of waiting so you have the freshest tyres but at the risk of only getting one lap. Or you can stay out and get two laps in but with more worn tyres and being slightly slower etc.

Also, what happens if someone bins it at the first corner of Q1 at the start and red flags the session? Do they start again or just stop the clock? If the clock just stops it could get even tighter...

Aislabie · Post by **Aislabie** » 19 Mar 2016, 11:30

Reject of the Race - The new qualifying system?

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 19 Mar 2016, 11:45

I will go against everyone here and say that the new system although not perfect and in need of tweaking should not be scraped after only one try. Give it at least a bit more time and if still rubbish scrap it completely. The real issue here is that teams prefer to save tyres than to do more than two runs at each part. After those two runs it is over. And that is for Mercedes because for the rest only one run was deemed necessary. That would not have changed this in the old format. The only difference is that instead of having zero cars in the final 4 minutes you would have 0 cars in the first 2 or 3 and then another 2 or 3 minutes in the middle of the session making most of the session pointless, like it was last year (Where, if I am honest, I couldn't be bothered to watch anymore). My beef is that there is too much people eliminated both Q1 and Q2, Q3 should have 10 drivers like last year. And the time for each session. Q1 should be longer and Q2 should be shorter. I think the way teams failed to grasp this format was best seen in Q1 and in Q3 where, in my opinion, some drivers could have chosen to go and try knock out people closer to the front but instead they decided it was okay with only one run. If only one run it is, then yes, make it a top 8 or top 10 one lap shoot-out but only after having tried this system more than once!

Post by **tommykl** » 19 Mar 2016, 11:55

DanielPT wrote:I will go against everyone here and say that the new system although not perfect and in need of tweaking should not be scraped after only one try. Give it at least a bit more time and if still rubbish scrap it completely. The real issue here is that teams prefer to save tyres than to do more than two runs at each part. After those two runs it is over. And that is for Mercedes because for the rest only one run was deemed necessary. That would not have changed this in the old format. The only difference is that instead of having zero cars in the final 4 minutes you would have 0 cars in the first 2 or 3 and then another 2 or 3 minutes in the middle of the session making most of the session pointless, like it was last year (Where, if I am honest, I couldn't be bothered to watch anymore). My beef is that there is too much people eliminated both Q1 and Q2, Q3 should have 10 drivers like last year. And the time for each session. Q1 should be longer and Q2 should be shorter. I think the way teams failed to grasp this format was best seen in Q1 and in Q3 where, in my opinion, some drivers could have chosen to go and try knock out people closer to the front but instead they decided it was okay with only one run. If only one run it is, then yes, make it a top 8 or top 10 one lap shoot-out but only after having tried this system more than once!

I agree with this. I want to pin most of the blame of the system's perceived failure on the teams and drivers here. It seems that most of them simply didn't quite understand how it works, and that others were hell-bent on sabotaging it with the purpose of making the FIA look incompetent to gain some political leverage.

I think the arguments that everyone should be able to finish their laps during the session are unfounded. They've had a few minutes before elimination started to set their laps. You couldn't finish a better lap before elimination? Tough luck. You just had to time it better or set that lap sooner. The only valid argument I see is why should drivers be allowed to finish their laps at the end of the session, and I think that's a problem worth looking at.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 19 Mar 2016, 11:57

Collieafc wrote:A classic example of change for changes sake. Ok there were problems with the previous format, mainly Q3, but this has only made those problems worse!

At least Q1 was entertaining but they should give time to get everyone out on track before starting elimination. Maybe wait say 5 minutes before starting the clock? Make it that you can be either in the pits or the track when the clock starts but before it does, any lap times dont count. This could give the option of waiting so you have the freshest tyres but at the risk of only getting one lap. Or you can stay out and get two laps in but with more worn tyres and being slightly slower etc.

Also, what happens if someone bins it at the first corner of Q1 at the start and red flags the session? Do they start again or just stop the clock? If the clock just stops it could get even tighter...

The clock just stops. I believe there was an article discussing this published only a couple of days ago.

Anyway, my views: That was the worst qualifying session I have had to endure, however, the system could still work with some tweaks.

Firstly, the current Q1-Q2-Q3 format doesn't appear suited to this system. I understand that keeping it allows for TV stations to go to ad breaks, but there just simply is not enough time as is for the elimination format to work as best as it potentially could. It caused a lot of confusion, but that comes as no surprise seeing as this is a brand new format that the teams have yet to fully adjust to. They're hardly going to have it sussed out from the get-go.

Secondly, the tyres degrade too quickly, hence all the one-lap runs. Pirelli are introducing more durable tyres next year, which would hopefully solve this problem.

Thirdly, the 90-second elimination is not feasible for all tracks. Someone elsewhere pointed out that in a wet qualifying at Spa it would be impossible for any driver to go out, complete an out lap and a timed lap before the elimination starts, which would undoubtedly descend into farce, so a bigger window would be required there.

Although at the end of it I really think it was a bad idea to introduce it for this year. Delaying it until next year would certainly have given ample time to iron out any potential flaws.

Or we just go back to the old system and forget anything happened. Either way our lives aren't significantly changed

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 19 Mar 2016, 12:06

tommykl wrote:I agree with this. I want to pin most of the blame of the system's perceived failure on the teams and drivers here. It seems that most of them simply didn't quite understand how it works, and that others were hell-bent on sabotaging it with the purpose of making the FIA look incompetent to gain some political leverage.

I reckon Ferrari was the worst perpetrator of this. Not even trying to defend a second place? It is rubbish I say. Mercedes are now too far off is it?

andrew · Post by **andrew** » 19 Mar 2016, 12:30

The main problem was, the teams were all cuaght out by the mathmatics not leaving enough time to have an outlap and flying lap. The issue with planning to do a second run is however you can suddenly loose 90seconds if your bumped out.

The change makes the q1 q2 and q3 thing rather pointless and the timings are not enough, we saw them all queue at the end of q1. At Monaco this could possibly get rather dangerous. The other problem is that if people are getting timed out at Australia, a fairly short track the problem will only be worse at tracks like Belgium especially in the rain. Ferrari also caused problems by not going out at all at the end of q3 (they had time) whereas those from Verstappen onwards did not have enough time.

If they want to fix this they need to give the drivers longer so they get a least a chance to react (they could be held up by traffic) or scrap the q1 q2 q3 system altogether, giving them an hour session.

I don't believe giving the drivers time to complete a lap after each 90 second interval will work either as this would get confusing and negate the whole point of the new system, they should however scrap the you can complete your final lap after the chequered flag bit as this is what cost Ericcson in q1 and it deeply unfair on him.

yannicksamlad · Post by **yannicksamlad** » 19 Mar 2016, 12:32

Q1 had some tension, and drivers had to go early....but overall we have fewer laps done by drivers. And it fizzles out. I think we knew this would happen in the dry with the tyres, but what I didn't anticipate was that the TV would just seem to show mostly cars and drivers in the pits..
It like those multi pitstop races where you're watching the most fantastic cars and drivers taking turns at parking and then driving off at 50 mph..to see if a wheel nut jams.
Not enough drama on track, it's all in the pits.
And as people have said; what happens at a wet Spa if you are last in the queue..tight to do any lap at all before cut off.

AxelP800 · Post by **AxelP800** » 19 Mar 2016, 12:37

* I'm the one who added the text on the left

Comment? You don't need any.

andrew · Post by **andrew** » 19 Mar 2016, 12:41

It's Seb Vettel 2013 all over again.
To be fair to the stewards Whincup was told.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 19 Mar 2016, 12:41

I think McLaren, at least, will be relieved it's not as bad as it was last year, even if still not great.

It doesn't at the moment look as if anyone's got much closer to Mercedes, though.

Fetzie · Post by **Fetzie** » 19 Mar 2016, 12:44

http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/35850766

The new quali method was so successful, that there's a good chance it gets scrapped.

I think it could have been ok, if your lap had counted so long as you started it within the 90 second period.

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 19 Mar 2016, 12:59

Change it back to the way it was, forget this weekend ever happened, and move on.

Aislabie · Post by **Aislabie** » 19 Mar 2016, 13:33

Rob Dylan wrote:Change it back to the way it was, forget this weekend ever happened, and move on.

Can we go back to how it was at the back end of 2005 with single-lap qualifying please?

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 19 Mar 2016, 13:43

Aislabie wrote:
Rob Dylan wrote:Change it back to the way it was, forget this weekend ever happened, and move on.

Can we go back to how it was at the back end of 2005 with single-lap qualifying please?

I say we adopt a random grid draw system, just like the system used in the earliest days of motor racing!

Also, the real reason this qualifying system is a failure:

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 19 Mar 2016, 14:06

New quali system. That went well then....

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 19 Mar 2016, 14:20

While like the rest of you I find the outcome of the new system disappointing (the top 3 on the grid was a foregone conclusion before the weekend even started if you ask me), the new format has a lot of potential and scrapping it straight away would be just be frustrating as the end of Q3 was to me.
At least we had a couple of surprises, with Kvyat in 18th and Bottas in 11th (this could be the norm for Williams this year, who knows) and with some (sizable) tweaks as some have said, this change in the quali format will be worth it.

On another note, it's nice to see Toro Rosso doing so well, although regarding how Melbourne's track has a different climate and nature compared to most of the other tracks this year, I don't this expect those kind of results to be a regular thing. Besides, STR could have dreadful race pace, let's hope not though!

Fetzie · Post by **Fetzie** » 19 Mar 2016, 14:28

good_Ralf wrote:While like the rest of you I find the outcome of the new system disappointing (the top 3 on the grid was a foregone conclusion before the weekend even started if you ask me), the new format has a lot of potential and scrapping it straight away would be just be frustrating as the end of Q3 was to me.
At least we had a couple of surprises, with Kvyat in 18th and Bottas in 11th (this could be the norm for Williams this year, who knows) and with some (sizable) tweaks as some have said, this change in the quali format will be worth it.

On another note, it's nice to see Toro Rosso doing so well, although regarding how Melbourne's track has a different climate and nature compared to most of the other tracks this year, I don't this expect those kind of results to be a regular thing. Besides, STR could have dreadful race pace, let's hope not though!

Kvyat would have been 18th with the old quali system too, though.

STR had a decent package last year, that was only really let down by that Renault tractor engine. Strapping last year's Ferrari to a further developed STR from last year could well see them regularly featuring in the top third of the classification.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 19 Mar 2016, 14:53

Simtek wrote:Also, the real reason this qualifying system is a failure:

There are other people producing a Rejects podcast?! This isn't Jamie and Enoch, is it? Who are they?

Post by **Miguel98** » 19 Mar 2016, 15:00

dr-baker wrote:
Simtek wrote:Also, the real reason this qualifying system is a failure:

There are other people producing a Rejects podcast?! This isn't Jamie and Enoch, is it? Who are they?

It's Jenoch. It's the old F1R account.

Spectoremg · Post by **Spectoremg** » 19 Mar 2016, 15:17

DC: 'I expected Ferrari to be closer to Mercedes after winter testing' :facepalm:

Did I imagine a note of despair in his voice?

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 19 Mar 2016, 15:36

I watched the Sky coverage, and the reaction was pretty universal when those Mercedes posted up times a full second faster than the Ferraris. Croft and Brundle were just like "awwww s***************************t". I think people were thinking that if Mercedes had been sandbagging, we'd have known sooner. Admittedly I wasn't following the practice sessions, but I wasn't expecting that kind of pace from ROS and HAM.

Post by **mario** » 19 Mar 2016, 17:15

Fetzie wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:While like the rest of you I find the outcome of the new system disappointing (the top 3 on the grid was a foregone conclusion before the weekend even started if you ask me), the new format has a lot of potential and scrapping it straight away would be just be frustrating as the end of Q3 was to me.
At least we had a couple of surprises, with Kvyat in 18th and Bottas in 11th (this could be the norm for Williams this year, who knows) and with some (sizable) tweaks as some have said, this change in the quali format will be worth it.

On another note, it's nice to see Toro Rosso doing so well, although regarding how Melbourne's track has a different climate and nature compared to most of the other tracks this year, I don't this expect those kind of results to be a regular thing. Besides, STR could have dreadful race pace, let's hope not though!

Kvyat would have been 18th with the old quali system too, though.

STR had a decent package last year, that was only really let down by that Renault tractor engine. Strapping last year's Ferrari to a further developed STR from last year could well see them regularly featuring in the top third of the classification.

Toro Rosso have certainly shown well and could potentially show promising pace in the opening races, but the one weakness the team has is going to be the fact they are using a 2015 spec engine. Given how late they out their car together, they managed to produce a very promising and well packaged chassis - however, I can see them falling back a bit as their rivals update their engines over the course of the season.

I can see Verstappen presenting something of a quandary for the two Ferrari drivers off the line - I expect him to be fairly aggressive, and he could really disrupt things for them if he is able to mix things up with them.

The other outfit that could be interesting in the race might be Force India - they still have the benefits of free tyre choice, and Perez could always present a threat with his tyre management skills too. Bottas certainly performed worse than expected in qualifying, and I can see Massa coming under pressure from both Force India and Red Bull in the race given that both of those outfits do seem to have maintained their tyre management advantage over Williams from 2015.

Samster · Post by **Samster** » 19 Mar 2016, 17:21

Well the new qualifying system had the exact opposite effect of what it intended. :facepalm:

However I put the blame mainly on the teams as most of them seemed to not give a stuff when their drivers were looking at elimination. I'd say allow drivers up for elimination to complete the lap they are on as long as its started before the countdown ends and give them unlimited tires for qualifying and the system may just work. Otherwise, scrap it. Hell I wish they would just go back to single lap runs or just have the old hour session as I never really liked the elimination format to begin with.

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 19 Mar 2016, 19:21

Rob Dylan wrote:Change it back to the way it was, forget this weekend ever happened, and move on.

I totally agree. If the problem was that there were often times when there weren't cars on track (like at the beginning of each session) then just MAKE THE SESSIONS SHORTER. If there aren't enough times when the grid is 'mixed up and exciting' - well, that's the way it is. I'm no Mercedes fan, but it's up to the others to catch up, for ****s sake.

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 19 Mar 2016, 21:41

Reject of the year award decided and we haven't had lights out in the first race....

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 19 Mar 2016, 22:29

Miguel98 wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
Simtek wrote:Also, the real reason this qualifying system is a failure:

There are other people producing a Rejects podcast?! This isn't Jamie and Enoch, is it? Who are they?

It's Jenoch. It's the old F1R account.

Wow, that might be the best news of the year!

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 20 Mar 2016, 05:08

Both Ferraris through, Pascal Werhlein ahead of both saubers wow!

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 20 Mar 2016, 05:11

Holy hell... what a start from Hamilton!

Aguaman · Post by **Aguaman** » 20 Mar 2016, 05:13

I think the most important thing is that Alonso is 10th, Wehlein is ahead of the Saubers and RIO ISN'T LAST

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 20 Mar 2016, 05:23

Well, this is quite interesting - but let's just hope we haven't swapped Mercedes domination for Ferrari domination!

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 20 Mar 2016, 05:24

It is nice to see drivers getting very little coaching, none of this "target time is X:XX or Consider strat blah blah" how nice to see Verstappen genuinely racing Hamilton!

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 20 Mar 2016, 05:34

Holy ****! Switches sides, caught out by braking and then massive rebound, massively lucky! Red Flag!!

Aguaman · Post by **Aguaman** » 20 Mar 2016, 05:34

What happened? Fernando's car just is basically gone.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 20 Mar 2016, 05:37

Qualifying is forgiven. This race is epic.

AxelP800 · Post by **AxelP800** » 20 Mar 2016, 05:37

Sh*t! That was scary :shock:

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 20 Mar 2016, 05:38

Ouch! Alonso does a Brundle.

No, Ted Kravitz, it is not a shame we have been "denied this strategic battle," for goodness sake!

andrew · Post by **andrew** » 20 Mar 2016, 05:38

My god. I'm slightly worried about how that just disintegrated Fernandos car.

Aguaman · Post by **Aguaman** » 20 Mar 2016, 05:39

Red Flag.

Very vivid of Schumacher 2002 with Barrichello.

AxelP800 · Post by **AxelP800** » 20 Mar 2016, 05:39

Another flip at turn 3