Possible return for KERS in 2011?

[TomWazzleshaw]

Just one of the many possible changes for 2011 that will be discussed

[mario]

It's strange that they suddenly think that KERS will give them the extra perfromance they need to leapfrog others, although it is great that they are reintroducing th technology to the sport. Whilst the single supplier option would tap into the theme of cutting costs that the FIA has been pushing, opening up the regulations could produce some very interesting result (although it would probably guarantee the success of the Mercedes/Zytek system, given that they were the only ones who really got their system to work).

What will also be interesting is if they go for that change in rear tyre size as well - going from 13 to 18 inches is quite a change. Will they be changing the front tyres as well, though? Surely, otherwise, we will end up with a major imbalance between front and rear end grip, when it is understeer that the drivers complain about when following another car.

[CarlosFerreira]

I'm part of the crew saying KERS was a poorly executed good idea. Arguably, I believe KERS was part of the collateral damage caused by the strife last year and the supposed break of what came to be known as Formula Elaborate Bluff. So, bringing it back is a good idea in principle, but I would like to point out that poor execution and implementation could again hamper its success; lots of cost-cutting standardization means everyone ends up with the same equipment and producing the same results...

[TeamTipper]

I feel that the idea of F1 is to be open with rules and design. And seeing KERS return and letting team choose on how the system can be used is a huge step foward for the sport and engineering.

[Ross Prawn]

I'm part of the crew saying its b*ll*cks. Massively complicated and expensive at a time when they should be cost cutting. Not convincing environmentally, because its too techy for most greens to understand. Potentially dangerous at the starts. And the whole 'push to pass' concept is great in Mario cart but bollocks in F1. And because it gets used defensively, its not possible to argue that it will help overtaking. And the batteries are definitely not eco friendly, being full of some of the most noxious substances you can think of. And if it goes wrong then the driver gets his bits toasted off in the resulting fire. And rant, rant, rant, rant, rant .......

So overall I'm not keen.

[mario]

I'm part of the crew saying its b*ll*cks. Massively complicated and expensive at a time when they should be cost cutting. Not convincing environmentally, because its too techy for most greens to understand. Potentially dangerous at the starts. And the whole 'push to pass' concept is great in Mario cart but bollocks in F1. And because it gets used defensively, its not possible to argue that it will help overtaking. And the batteries are definitely not eco friendly, being full of some of the most noxious substances you can think of. And if it goes wrong then the driver gets his bits toasted off in the resulting fire. And rant, rant, rant, rant, rant .......

So overall I'm not keen.

The battery variants are indeed of questionable ecological value - lithium is in short supply, thanks to the electronics industry, and mining it isn't exactly that ecologically friendly. That was why I am more keen on the flywheel variant developed by Williams - which is more durable (Porsche is running it in the GT3 for endurance racing), and has been designed with a fail safe mechanism which would not harm the driver (where the disk itself breaks down).

Some of your points are curious though - what exactly do you mean by "potentially dangerous at the starts"? Surely it is no more dangerous then a driver being overexuberant with the right boot, which is the usual cause of first corner accidents. Besides, we effectively have had "push to pass" before, during the turbo engine era, when the driver could manually adjust the boost pressure. Sometimes it was used offensively, and sometimes defensively.

Yes, KERS is potentially expensive - Mercedes are said to have spent £80 million, although most teams who ran KERS are said to have spent closer to $20-40 million (Mercedes spent so much because they wanted to transfer technology from the race cars to their road division). On the other hand, the teams would happily spend that money on aerodynamics (and then some), which many complain are ruining the sport by making overtaking too difficult. Or contrast that to the hundreds of millions that the teams would spend on engines before the FIA restricted them. Anywhere the teams believe that they can get a competitive advantage, the teams will plough money into it.

[fjackdaw]

I wasn't a fan last year, because it effectively resulted in two-tier racing. No one could pass or hold off the McLarens or Ferraris because they had a magic button no one else had which allowed them to defend or pass. It was very computer-gamey. It's not so bad if everyone has it, but it doesn't feel like real racing to me.

[Ross Prawn]

If everybody has KERS, then its contribution to the racing is debatable. One driver pushes to pass and the guy in front pushes to defend. Still no overtaking. Indeed probably less, as defending is always easier. Last year KERS was most effective as a blocking tool.

So it will chew up a lot of money and not improve the show.

If not everyone has KERS then its potentially dangerous at the starts as some guys can take off like rockets and some can't. OK KERS is disabled for the first 100 yards or so, but there can still be big speed differentials into the first corner.

[watka]

KERS needs to deliver more power, but in more limited bursts. The "push-to-pass" buttons in the lower formulae were only allowed to be used 5 or 6 times a race, not 4 times a lap. This way, I don't see it being used as a defensive mechanism so much.

[Phoenix]

I think KERS is pointless. It'll never help as much as some new aero rules to reduce the drag would for overtaking. And it's another way of raising costs.
Plus, we would have those ridiculous situations like Fisichella being unable, with a car without KERS, to overtake Raikkönen, with a car with KERS, at Belgium last year even though the Force India was faster. Why? Because maybe not all the teams will want to use it, and we could end like last year, with only Ferrari and McLaren using it all year. And if it was made mandatory, I believe everyone would use it at the same spots, which would cause its effects to be pretty much nullified.

[fjackdaw]

I think KERS is pointless. It'll never help as much as some new aero rules to reduce the drag would for overtaking. And it's another way of raising costs.
Plus, we would have those ridiculous situations like Fisichella being unable, with a car without KERS, to overtake Raikkönen, with a car with KERS, at Belgium last year even though the Force India was faster. Why? Because maybe not all the teams will want to use it, and we could end like last year, with only Ferrari and McLaren using it all year. And if it was made mandatory, I believe everyone would use it at the same spots, which would cause its effects to be pretty much nullified.

And it makes a mockery of the sport in the eyes of non-fans. It's like some football players having special mechanised "kicking boots" that help them tackle and shoot more effectively, but others not being able to afford them. Wouldn't football look ridiculous then?

[Waris]

I think you (and the FIA) are missing the point. KERS should never be intended to 'improve the show' in the first place; it should be used to conserve energy, thereby bringing costs down because engine manufacturers will not longer need to seek more engine power. (Of course, this will be offset by the cost it takes to develop KERS; but surely after they've developed it to satisfaction, they can just keep using it forever?) Of course, this only works when everyone has it, so the "push-to-defend" usage is negated.
By the way, I'm a big fan of Williams' flywheel system.

[Tealy]

I think you (and the FIA) are missing the point. KERS should never be intended to 'improve the show' in the first place; it should be used to conserve energy, thereby bringing costs down because engine manufacturers will not longer need to seek more engine power. (Of course, this will be offset by the cost it takes to develop KERS; but surely after they've developed it to satisfaction, they can just keep using it forever?) Of course, this only works when everyone has it, so the "push-to-defend" usage is negated.
By the way, I'm a big fan of Williams' flywheel system.

It could also be used to save fuel presumably, as that is what it does in a road car. Then a better KERS would make the car lighter as they would carry less fuel. Main problem here though is what happens if your KERS fails.

[Waris]

I think you (and the FIA) are missing the point. KERS should never be intended to 'improve the show' in the first place; it should be used to conserve energy, thereby bringing costs down because engine manufacturers will not longer need to seek more engine power. (Of course, this will be offset by the cost it takes to develop KERS; but surely after they've developed it to satisfaction, they can just keep using it forever?) Of course, this only works when everyone has it, so the "push-to-defend" usage is negated.
By the way, I'm a big fan of Williams' flywheel system.

It could also be used to save fuel presumably, as that is what it does in a road car. Then a better KERS would make the car lighter as they would carry less fuel. Main problem here though is what happens if your KERS fails.

Exactly, and that's why they should be allowed to put a bit of time and money into it to enable them to get it failproof, and/or just run out of fuel when their KERS fails and suffer the consequences if they don't make it stable enough. (This also relates to the general idea that F1 needs worse reliability.)

[Phoenix]

Asking for worse reliability is going far too deep. It's not fair at all. Furthermore, one of the points of F1 is to show how reliable the technology used on it is.

[thalion]

The only problem I had with KERS was that the regulations limited it to the point that it was completely useless. The teams could have designed much better systems, but the amount of power it could generate was restricted to an unreasonably low level. That's why everyone criticized it as being completely irrelevant technology.

[Mister Fungus]

It's like some football players having special mechanised "kicking boots" that help them tackle and shoot more effectively, but others not being able to afford them.

Are you serious? I mean really, think about this quote a bit.

[DonTirri]

Wouldn't football look ridiculous then?

Its ridiculous anyway. Boring, overhyped sport where primadonnas get paid millions upon millions of euros to chase a rubber ball for 90 minutes.

They say F1 is an expensive sport... But just look at the Wages the teams are paying to some players in La Liga or Serie A... RIDICULOUS!

Hell, I think Cristiano Ronaldo could run an F1 team with just his Football wages...

[Phoenix]

Hell, I think Cristiano Ronaldo could run an F1 team with just his Football wages...

Considering his signing costed €94m, then arguably the Real Madrid Hookers Club could well run a frontrunner F1 team. Let's pray for this not to happen ever, though.

[Klon]

Hell, I think Cristiano Ronaldo could run an F1 team with just his Football wages...

Considering his signing costed €94m, then arguably the Real Madrid Hookers Club could well run a frontrunner F1 team. Let's pray for this not to happen ever, though.

Hmmm ... they don't have a team in Superleauge Formula. Skipping the reject pool and going straight to Formula 1.

[mario]

Hell, I think Cristiano Ronaldo could run an F1 team with just his Football wages...

Considering his signing costed €94m, then arguably the Real Madrid Hookers Club could well run a frontrunner F1 team. Let's pray for this not to happen ever, though.

Am I the only one who, upon seeing that comment, is desperately trying to prevent themselves from making a Max Mosely joke?

[DemocalypseNow]

Hell, I think Cristiano Ronaldo could run an F1 team with just his Football wages...

Considering his signing costed €94m, then arguably the Real Madrid Hookers Club could well run a frontrunner F1 team. Let's pray for this not to happen ever, though.

Am I the only one who, upon seeing that comment, is desperately trying to prevent themselves from making a Max Mosely joke?

That would only really work if it was Bayern Munich and not Real.

[Phoenix]

Hell, I think Cristiano Ronaldo could run an F1 team with just his Football wages...

Considering his signing costed €94m, then arguably the Real Madrid Hookers Club could well run a frontrunner F1 team. Let's pray for this not to happen ever, though.

Am I the only one who, upon seeing that comment, is desperately trying to prevent themselves from making a Max Mosely joke?

Then do it, man. We're all expecting it (well, maybe only me, but never mind).

[mario]

Shame that I never did get around to making that Max Mosely joke. However, the thread archaeology is justified because it seems that Williams are now throwing their support back behind a reintroduction of KERS in 2011. To add further intrigue to the plot is the fact that Ferrari and Renault are also supposed to be joining the KERS party for 2011, with both of those teams having actually pushed the idea in the first place.
Costs, meanwhile, appear to be capped at €1 million for the season; the idea is that limiting costs to that level would allow for limited competition, but prevent KERS becoming excessively expensive.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83171

Now, this is going to potentially spice things up. We know that Renault and Ferrari would potentially be able to use the Magnetti Marelli system they used in 2009. The Mercedes unit (although, strictly speaking, it was actually designed by Zytek), which was particularly effective, is more interesting - what would be the commercial terms for Mclaren, now that Mercedes have gone off on their own?

[AndreaModa]

I'm guessing that with Zytek being a British company that McLaren would be getting first dibs on it, though I wouldn't rule out Mercedes utilising it too, and maybe even Force India depending on how close the technical partnership is.

Interesting development though, especially as you have to consider that Williams have already ruled out putting the flywheel design in a current F1 car because the larger fuel tank leaves no room which means they're going to have to come up with something new.

And I'm also curious to see how the privateer teams are going to cope, will Cosworth be supplying something? Are the teams going to have to develop them seperately and in-house? Interesting times indeed.

[mario]

I'm guessing that with Zytek being a British company that McLaren would be getting first dibs on it, though I wouldn't rule out Mercedes utilising it too, and maybe even Force India depending on how close the technical partnership is.

Interesting development though, especially as you have to consider that Williams have already ruled out putting the flywheel design in a current F1 car because the larger fuel tank leaves no room which means they're going to have to come up with something new.

And I'm also curious to see how the privateer teams are going to cope, will Cosworth be supplying something? Are the teams going to have to develop them seperately and in-house? Interesting times indeed.

Cosworth would probably have to redesign the engine to integrate the KERS system, so although they could offer it to the new teams, I think that it would neither be easy or quick to do. If it would be particularly expensive - and remember that the engines are now fixed at €5 million a season, so you can't recoup costs easily - then I would bet that Cosworth wouldn't do so immediately.
Besides, the Renault/Ferrari initiative would involve the use of a standardised system, which would probably be the Magnetti Marelli system they used last year.

As for the Mclaren-Mercedes issue, I would assume that since Zytek owns the full rights to the system that they could sell it to either party, or to both if they so wished.