Ponderbox

[Wallio]

Additionally, although there was talk of significant backing from Beatrice Foods, I wonder how much of that money did actually end up going to the team in the end. Whilst the company was sold at the very end of 1986 to KKR, Jim Dutt, the CEO who signed the deal with the FORCE F1 team, was forced out of his position in August 1985.

It does seem that the team was at least flush with cash at first. But building the factory, setting up FORCE, coming to the weird arrangement with March over Newey, and essentially designing 2 cars at once (the THL1 only appeared at Monza, but was carried over in '86 while the THL2 was being built and tested.) all combined to drain the team quickly. Plus Jones was given a healthy retainer.

Interesting to note that after Patrick Tambay had to miss the '86 Detroit Grand Prix due to an accident, Eddie Cheever substituted. Haas' original choice was Mario Andretti since he was driving for Haas in Champcar.Mario declined,so they tried-but failed to get-a superlicence for Michael Andretti to drive instead!

It really is unbelievable how many brushes with major names the team had. F1's own version of "6 degrees of Kevin Bacon."

[noiceinmydrink]

Was watching the '94 British GP some time ago and noticed a big ol Marlboro sign facing down the hangar straight despite tobacco advertising being a no-no (I assume anyway, all the other cars had their stuff censored), what's the deal?

[Wallio]

Was watching the '94 British GP some time ago and noticed a big ol Marlboro sign facing down the hangar straight despite tobacco advertising being a no-no (I assume anyway, all the other cars had their stuff censored), what's the deal?

Perhaps the UK had a similar version of the regs the US adopted not long after? In the US, only one entity could be sponsored by a cigarette brand. Its why famously Ferrari had to drop their Marlboro logos, while "Marlboro Team Penske" did not. Winston went from sponsoring NASCAR, NHRA, and IHRA, to just NASCAR.

[noiceinmydrink]

Perhaps the UK had a similar version of the regs the US adopted not long after? In the US, only one entity could be sponsored by a cigarette brand. Its why famously Ferrari had to drop their Marlboro logos, while "Marlboro Team Penske" did not. Winston went from sponsoring NASCAR, NHRA, and IHRA, to just NASCAR.

Ah right, that makes sense then - I had no idea that was a thing even in the US!

[Bleu]

In mid-90s I think Canada had a rule where only brands available locally were permitted to advertise. Benetton is in non-tobacco form while Williams and Ferrari have theirs.

[mario]

Perhaps the UK had a similar version of the regs the US adopted not long after? In the US, only one entity could be sponsored by a cigarette brand. Its why famously Ferrari had to drop their Marlboro logos, while "Marlboro Team Penske" did not. Winston went from sponsoring NASCAR, NHRA, and IHRA, to just NASCAR.

Ah right, that makes sense then - I had no idea that was a thing even in the US!

It is also possible that some of those modifications were made to permit the races to be broadcast in other countries - in 1992 and 1993, French anti-tobacco advertising legislation threatened to prevent Formula 1 from broadcasting any races in France, and it seems that, in late 1992, a French court imposed a fine on Williams and threatened to seize their equipment if they entered the country again (which resulted in the FIA initially striking the French GP off the 1993 calendar). It seems that the FFSA eventually managed to strike a deal with the French government that allowed some tobacco advertising to continue in the short term, provided that it was phased out by the end of 1995.

As an aside, whilst trying to find an answer to it, I did also stumble across an extract of a debate in the House of Lords from 1997 when the UK initially passed an exemption allowing Formula 1 to continue with tobacco advertising (https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hans ... motorsport). It is rather interesting to see how the members there were complaining that it was necessary for tobacco advertising to be kept up in order to keep the UK motorsport sector going (this being around the time that Ecclestone was also donating money to the government, followed by them giving Formula 1 an exemption to tobacco advertising).

[dr-baker]

So this is something that I have been pondering for a little while:

1. The works Mercedes teams of the 1950s and the one from 2010 onwards can be considered a continuation as they are both essentially the works team of a major manufacturer.

2. Frank Williams Racing Cars (aka Politoys and Iso-Marlboro) (late 1960s to mid 1970s) and Williams Grand Prix Engineering (late 1970s) can be considered closely related teams as they were both founded and run by Frank Williams but are certainly two separate entries.

3. The mid- 1980s Haas and the current Haas teams are definitely two different and unrelated teams despite both being American as they were founded and run by two different Haases.


So, if Damon Hill were to have set up and run his own Hill racing team, how would this team have been considered to be related to his father's Hill team? Would it be closer to the Williams or Haas examples above?

[Wallio]

So this is something that I have been pondering for a little while:

1. The works Mercedes teams of the 1950s and the one from 2010 onwards can be considered a continuation as they are both essentially the works team of a major manufacturer.

2. Frank Williams Racing Cars (aka Politoys and Iso-Marlboro) (late 1960s to mid 1970s) and Williams Grand Prix Engineering (late 1970s) can be considered closely related teams as they were both founded and run by Frank Williams but are certainly two separate entries.

3. The mid- 1980s Haas and the current Haas teams are definitely two different and unrelated teams despite both being American as they were founded and run by two different Haases.


So, if Damon Hill were to have set up and run his own Hill racing team, how would this team have been considered to be related to his father's Hill team? Would it be closer to the Williams or Haas examples above?

That's actually a good question. Initial instinct would be to scoff and say "of course they would be different". But as we saw with the whole Team Lotus/Lotus Team debacle as well as the relaunches of Vanwall, Brabham, Lola, Aston, etc. IP rights count for a lot. Damon did have a rather....complicated relationship with his dad though (of course nowhere near JV/GV levels) so I do wonder if he would fully embrace it.

[Spectoremg]

Every time wet/dry conditions make a race interesting I'm drawn to Bernie's sprinkler idea...

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

Every time wet/dry conditions make a race interesting I'm drawn to Bernie's sprinkler idea...

I get it, but I think if it happened every other race meeting it would get old before the season was out. I am curious what you think would be the right frequency for wet races?

[dr-baker]

Every time wet/dry conditions make a race interesting I'm drawn to Bernie's sprinkler idea...

I get it, but I think if it happened every other race meeting it would get old before the season was out. I am curious what you think would be the right frequency for wet races?

It would have to be very random, unannounced, and infrequent so the teams would not gain knowledge or experience of how to adequately manage the conditions.

[Wallio]

I think that part of the excitement is, for a multitude of reasons that have been covered to death, we really only have one wet weather compound. The current interest have such a narrow operating band that staying on slicks is worth considering, if not outright preferable, and then if it rains too much, even for say 3 laps, they are inefficient again. A true rain tyre would eliminate a lot of the randomness and chaos I think.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

Every time wet/dry conditions make a race interesting I'm drawn to Bernie's sprinkler idea...

I get it, but I think if it happened every other race meeting it would get old before the season was out. I am curious what you think would be the right frequency for wet races?

It would have to be very random, unannounced, and infrequent so the teams would not gain knowledge or experience of how to adequately manage the conditions.

I agree, but also there are certain tracks where it would be more welcome than others. I.e. it would be better to add water to the boring tracks. I don't really think it's ever necessary to add water to Silverstone, Spa, and some others, whereas there are some where it would almost always be welcome. I don't know the answer to that issue though.

[dr-baker]

I agree, but also there are certain tracks where it would be more welcome than others. I.e. it would be better to add water to the boring tracks. I don't really think it's ever necessary to add water to Silverstone, Spa, and some others, whereas there are some where it would almost always be welcome. I don't know the answer to that issue though.

It's funny that you mention Spa. The most memorable races for me there are the wet races. Definitely 1997. 2008 also comes to mind, especially the last few laps. And the infamous 2021 'race'. All affected by rain.

But I get your point. Random sprinklers at Monaco would work. Maybe even the occasional wave from the harbour between Tabac and La Piscine. Maybe even the fire extinguisher in the tunnel mid-race!

[Spectoremg]

But I get your point. Random sprinklers at Monaco would work. Maybe even the occasional wave from the harbour between Tabac and La Piscine. Maybe even the fire extinguisher in the tunnel mid-race!
Love it
Obviously it would have to be run at all circuits by Ferrari

[Spectoremg]

A New Zealand grand prix - why don't they have one? (I'm aware of the Oceana series).

[dr-baker]

A New Zealand grand prix - why don't they have one? (I'm aware of the Oceana series).

Would be good to have a Finnish GP too given the number of successful drivers from there. Problem with Finland is lack of a track. Good rally stages though.

[Spectoremg]

On a psychological level, today's DSQ for Ferrari isn't good. They love having an itch they can't scratch.

[Nuppiz]

A New Zealand grand prix - why don't they have one? (I'm aware of the Oceana series).

Would be good to have a Finnish GP too given the number of successful drivers from there. Problem with Finland is lack of a track. Good rally stages though.

And lack of someone willing to thrown hundreds of millions at hosting a F1 race... if it didn't happen during the 90s and early 2000s then it certainly won't happen now that we don't even have a driver racing there anymore.

[dr-baker]

A New Zealand grand prix - why don't they have one? (I'm aware of the Oceana series).

Would be good to have a Finnish GP too given the number of successful drivers from there. Problem with Finland is lack of a track. Good rally stages though.

And lack of someone willing to thrown hundreds of millions at hosting a F1 race... if it didn't happen during the 90s and early 2000s then it certainly won't happen now that we don't even have a driver racing there anymore.

Sadly true.

[mario]

A New Zealand grand prix - why don't they have one? (I'm aware of the Oceana series).

Would be good to have a Finnish GP too given the number of successful drivers from there. Problem with Finland is lack of a track. Good rally stages though.

Mind you, whilst there have been successful drivers from those nations, those drivers ultimately had to move outside of their home regions because they came from smaller nations that had limited infrastructure to be able to sustain a large motorsport industry (at least when compared to more populous nations).

If you look at Hakkinen, whilst he was able to race in Formula Ford championships in Finland, he had to move to the UK after that - I think that Sweden was the only Nordic nation that had a Formula 3 championship at the time when he was progressing through the junior series, and that only had a handful of drivers in it at the time. Keke Rosberg ended up moving over to Germany to compete in Formula Super Vee and Formula 2, Kimi Raikkonen had to move away to compete in the UK and European Formula Renault championships, Bottas spent most of his junior career in series across the UK and the rest of Europe and so on.

I might be mistaken here, but I think that the Nordic region doesn't even has any Formula 3 championships these days, with the Nordic Formula 4 championship being the highest ranking Formula racing series in the region. It creates the situation where you have several drivers from those places, but most of their career had to take place outside of those regions due to the lack of opportunities within them.