Reject of the Race - Saudi Arabia 2025

[Londoner]

1. Liam Lawson. Keep this up and he won't be in the sport by the summer break.

2. Gabriel Bortoleto. Nearly caused an aeroplane accident with Alonso.

[You-Gee-Eee-Day]

1. Yuki Tsunoda - [comment removed]
2. Lance Stroll - [comment removed with emphasis]

[rachel1990]

1. Liam Lawson. Oh mate. Becoming more and more of a meme every race. More likely to be dropped before the summer break now.

2. Gabriel Bortoleto. Maybe don't try to almost hit your manager's car in a race. Could have been biblically bad.

Hm the track. I hate the fact that we come here and Qatar anyway but this track always worries me.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

I’ll nominate Saudi Arabia and the track. Drivers and teams did a pretty good job today. Even the ones who crashed.

[RAK]

1) The track/race: Aside from the misstep by Verstappen at the start, the rest of the running wasn't exactly mindblowing.

2) Gabriel Bortoleto: Not only slow, but hazardous. Consistently the least impressive of the rookies.

[James1978]

I'm going to say something different because I think the 4 green cars are generally struggling a bit compared to the rest of the F1.5's.

I'll go for 2 big DHM's for the 2021 title duellers, Max as I don't think he had a leg to stand on with missing the chicane at the first but he has a face like a slapped arse at the end and the same goes for Horner too. Oscar had the high ground and you know it. But I disagree with Brundle in saying he should give the place back over a penalty. If it was give the place back he could play dare with the DRS line like in 2021, not possible with a penalty and it decided the race.

Meanwhile Hamilton is absolutely getting thrashed by Leclerc and is also behind his old car driven by a youngster. That 8th championship is looking further and further away.

Also a mild DHM for Lando for that qually accident costing him yet more crucial ground to his teammate. This could end up being Oscar v Max and Lando has to be the new Bottas.

[Salamander]

1. The track - Awful, awful, awful. A crime against sport. Breeds racing that is not only terrible, but dangerous too.
2. Oscari Piastri - For pulling the zero-skill manoeuvre (forcing your opponent off track rather than try to complete the move cleanly) at turn 1, lap 1.

[mario]

1. The track - Awful, awful, awful. A crime against sport. Breeds racing that is not only terrible, but dangerous too.
2. Oscari Piastri - For pulling the zero-skill manoeuvre (forcing your opponent off track rather than try to complete the move cleanly) at turn 1, lap 1.

The telemetry data seems to suggest it was more of a case of Max coming off the brakes early to try and make it look like he was ahead at the apex and that he was cutting the track because he was forced off, rather than because of the speed he was carrying into the corner.

[Salamander]

1. The track - Awful, awful, awful. A crime against sport. Breeds racing that is not only terrible, but dangerous too.
2. Oscari Piastri - For pulling the zero-skill manoeuvre (forcing your opponent off track rather than try to complete the move cleanly) at turn 1, lap 1.

The telemetry data seems to suggest it was more of a case of Max coming off the brakes early to try and make it look like he was ahead at the apex and that he was cutting the track because he was forced off, rather than because of the speed he was carrying into the corner.

Regardless, Piastri barely made turn 2 himself - even if Verstappen had tried to make it, he wouldn't have been able to. Both drivers deserved penalties, in hindsight.

[Ducktanian]

The photo that Horner is apparently using to prove Max's innocence.

[Jarvis]

The Track: They need to make some changes in turn 1.
Gabriel Bortoleto: He lacked pace and nearly forced Alonso out of the race with a collision.

[Alextrax52]

Aside from the usual mention for this race just because it exists, my picks are:

Gabriel Bortoleto: Nearly sent his own manager torpedoing into the turn 1 wall, pretty stupid move which could have had appalling consequences

Lewis Hamilton: I’m gonna say it now, China Sprint aside he’s basically picked up in 2025 how he performed for 3/4 of 2024. I know Saudi hasn’t been a great track of his with these cars but to be 6 tenths off in qualifying and 30 seconds behind Leclerc in the race with no delays is not a good look

Horner’s evidence photo: You know a team is desperate to prove they’re not guilty when they start resorting to the printed photo trick

[mario]

1. The track - Awful, awful, awful. A crime against sport. Breeds racing that is not only terrible, but dangerous too.
2. Oscari Piastri - For pulling the zero-skill manoeuvre (forcing your opponent off track rather than try to complete the move cleanly) at turn 1, lap 1.

The telemetry data seems to suggest it was more of a case of Max coming off the brakes early to try and make it look like he was ahead at the apex and that he was cutting the track because he was forced off, rather than because of the speed he was carrying into the corner.

Regardless, Piastri barely made turn 2 himself - even if Verstappen had tried to make it, he wouldn't have been able to. Both drivers deserved penalties, in hindsight.

Do you also have the attitude that Leclerc pushed Antonelli off the track and that he should have been punished for that at the start?

A few teams have commented recently that, particularly as we've seen more problems with following other cars emerge, it can be seen as advantageous in some cases to cut a corner to keep a position and maintain clean air. That is part of the reason why they have pushed for the stewards to be stricter with enforcing those rules, and also for instituting harsher penalties for that offence.

To me, it feels more like Verstappen chose to put his car there to engineer a situation where he wanted to claim he was being pushed off track, and therefore use that to justify cutting the corner, because it was a strategic advantage to get into clean air ahead of Piastri. He was then probably gambling that the team might be able to pressure the stewards into letting him keep the corner and, even if they didn't, it was probably more to his advantage to be the one in front, where he had fewer problems with his car overheating or higher tyre wear, than being in Piastri's wake and being the one having to deal with that dirty air.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

The telemetry data seems to suggest it was more of a case of Max coming off the brakes early to try and make it look like he was ahead at the apex and that he was cutting the track because he was forced off, rather than because of the speed he was carrying into the corner.

Regardless, Piastri barely made turn 2 himself - even if Verstappen had tried to make it, he wouldn't have been able to. Both drivers deserved penalties, in hindsight.

Do you also have the attitude that Leclerc pushed Antonelli off the track and that he should have been punished for that at the start?

A few teams have commented recently that, particularly as we've seen more problems with following other cars emerge, it can be seen as advantageous in some cases to cut a corner to keep a position and maintain clean air. That is part of the reason why they have pushed for the stewards to be stricter with enforcing those rules, and also for instituting harsher penalties for that offence.

To me, it feels more like Verstappen chose to put his car there to engineer a situation where he wanted to claim he was being pushed off track, and therefore use that to justify cutting the corner, because it was a strategic advantage to get into clean air ahead of Piastri. He was then probably gambling that the team might be able to pressure the stewards into letting him keep the corner and, even if they didn't, it was probably more to his advantage to be the one in front, where he had fewer problems with his car overheating or higher tyre wear, than being in Piastri's wake and being the one having to deal with that dirty air.

I agree with Mario. I think Verstappen was pushing beyond the bounds of the rules while Oscar was just within the bounds. I don't blame either one for doing what they did, but the stewards were right to penalize Max I think. I'm not sure what the rules should be in order to prevent both of them from doing what they did?

[Salamander]

Do you also have the attitude that Leclerc pushed Antonelli off the track and that he should have been punished for that at the start?

I don't remember that incident, to tell you the truth. Regardless, if any driver effectively tuns another off the road like Piastri did (and Verstappen himself has done countless times in the past), I think they should be harshly penalised. It's not a racing move, and certainly not one that requires any skill - a child could do it. If these are the best drivers in the world, I think we should hold them to higher standards, and that starts with getting rid of this obnoxious habit they all have of forcing whoever they're battling off the road at the first opportunity.

A few teams have commented recently that, particularly as we've seen more problems with following other cars emerge, it can be seen as advantageous in some cases to cut a corner to keep a position and maintain clean air. That is part of the reason why they have pushed for the stewards to be stricter with enforcing those rules, and also for instituting harsher penalties for that offence.

To me, it feels more like Verstappen chose to put his car there to engineer a situation where he wanted to claim he was being pushed off track, and therefore use that to justify cutting the corner, because it was a strategic advantage to get into clean air ahead of Piastri. He was then probably gambling that the team might be able to pressure the stewards into letting him keep the corner and, even if they didn't, it was probably more to his advantage to be the one in front, where he had fewer problems with his car overheating or higher tyre wear, than being in Piastri's wake and being the one having to deal with that dirty air.

I don't have an issue with Verstappen being penalised for cutting the corner. Personally, I view Piastri's move as worse - and something that was understated on the Sky broadcast, which is why I gave him my 2nd nomination for ROTR here. But as you say, Verstappen's actions were calculated as well, and he probably also warranted a harsher penalty than what he got.

Regardless, I don't see how any of that means that Piastri is free from being penalised as well.

[mario]

Do you also have the attitude that Leclerc pushed Antonelli off the track and that he should have been punished for that at the start?

I don't remember that incident, to tell you the truth. Regardless, if any driver effectively tuns another off the road like Piastri did (and Verstappen himself has done countless times in the past), I think they should be harshly penalised. It's not a racing move, and certainly not one that requires any skill - a child could do it. If these are the best drivers in the world, I think we should hold them to higher standards, and that starts with getting rid of this obnoxious habit they all have of forcing whoever they're battling off the road at the first opportunity.

It was also at the start, as Leclerc was also somewhat late in braking for the first corner and Antonelli, being on the outside for Turn 1, drove off the track at Turn 2 and made up a position on Leclerc in the process. As it so happens, Antonelli chose to give up the position and the potential advantage he gained by cutting the track at that point in time, so no further action occurred.

A few teams have commented recently that, particularly as we've seen more problems with following other cars emerge, it can be seen as advantageous in some cases to cut a corner to keep a position and maintain clean air. That is part of the reason why they have pushed for the stewards to be stricter with enforcing those rules, and also for instituting harsher penalties for that offence.

To me, it feels more like Verstappen chose to put his car there to engineer a situation where he wanted to claim he was being pushed off track, and therefore use that to justify cutting the corner, because it was a strategic advantage to get into clean air ahead of Piastri. He was then probably gambling that the team might be able to pressure the stewards into letting him keep the corner and, even if they didn't, it was probably more to his advantage to be the one in front, where he had fewer problems with his car overheating or higher tyre wear, than being in Piastri's wake and being the one having to deal with that dirty air.

I don't have an issue with Verstappen being penalised for cutting the corner. Personally, I view Piastri's move as worse - and something that was understated on the Sky broadcast, which is why I gave him my 2nd nomination for ROTR here. But as you say, Verstappen's actions were calculated as well, and he probably also warranted a harsher penalty than what he got.

Regardless, I don't see how any of that means that Piastri is free from being penalised as well.

In the case of Verstappen cutting the corner, I see that it is therefore a case where we differ, as I do think it was wrong for Verstappen to do what he did (as I feel it was done with the intention of gaining an advantage over those taking a more normal line).

I question how much of it was really a case of Verstappen being "forced off the road", and feel it was more of a case of Verstappen wanting to create a situation where, by coming off the brakes early in an attempt to get ahead of Piastri at the apex, he could act as if he was being pushed off the track and then use that as a justification to cut across the run off area.

Personally, I have the feeling that, seeing how other drivers reacted in a similar situation, Verstappen could have slowed down and made the corner by cutting in behind Piastri, but did not want to do so because it would have compromised his entry speed into Turn 2 and left him potentially vulnerable to Russell (as Russell would have been able to take a more optimal line through the corner and thus would have had more momentum on corner exit).

The whole question of when exactly a driver does or does not have a right to room is a vexed question that is going to be somewhat subjective and full of shades of grey - at some point, there will be a question of whether the person making the attacking move is being too optimistic with their actions, particularly in cases where you have a corner sequence of a chicane where the racing line, by it's nature, will cross over sides of the track. We've seen many incidents in the past where we would draw the line at a different point, and no doubt will see many more soon enough.

Whether we necessarily like it is, again, something that will be to personal tastes and, no doubt, we'll draw the line in different places at different times. However, as the sport allows such moves and drivers will inevitably employ them, we therefore have to at least look to how they're enforced and the criteria that the stewards are asked to apply includes the question of the relative positioning of the drivers when on the approach to the apex of the corner.

To that end, it creates a scenario where it can be advantageous for the attacking driver to go into a corner at very high speed - perhaps even at a speed where they would not normally make the corner, or could only do so on a very compromised line - to then claim that they were ahead at the apex and therefore entitled to room. This is where I take Row Man Gross-Gene's position and feel there was an element of Verstappen looking to bend the rules to his advantage in a somewhat cynical way - i.e. there was an incentive for Verstappen to act as if he was being pushed off the track, and that there is a question of how Verstappen was using that knowledge in the way he reacted to Piastri.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

To that end, it creates a scenario where it can be advantageous for the attacking driver to go into a corner at very high speed - perhaps even at a speed where they would not normally make the corner, or could only do so on a very compromised line - to then claim that they were ahead at the apex and therefore entitled to room. This is where I take Row Man Gross-Gene's position and feel there was an element of Verstappen looking to bend the rules to his advantage in a somewhat cynical way - i.e. there was an incentive for Verstappen to act as if he was being pushed off the track, and that there is a question of how Verstappen was using that knowledge in the way he reacted to Piastri.

That's what it felt like to me, yes. They've tried being really hyper specific with the wheel to wheel rules in the past and it seemed to lead to a very legalistic and technicality-laden type of driving that Max was really able to exploit. He was within the rules at the time, but the complaints from some drivers and fans was that it wasn't really within the spirit of racing (and less fun to watch) and they seemed to make the rules more old-fashioned and vague, but are enforcing them in a way that fits more with the traditional way racing has been done in the past. At least in my opinion. It's still not perfect and crappy tracks certainly exacerbate the problem in my opinion.

I wonder if people here have a "perfect" ruleset that they thought best?

[Salamander]

In the case of Verstappen cutting the corner, I see that it is therefore a case where we differ, as I do think it was wrong for Verstappen to do what he did (as I feel it was done with the intention of gaining an advantage over those taking a more normal line).

I question how much of it was really a case of Verstappen being "forced off the road", and feel it was more of a case of Verstappen wanting to create a situation where, by coming off the brakes early in an attempt to get ahead of Piastri at the apex, he could act as if he was being pushed off the track and then use that as a justification to cut across the run off area.

Personally, I have the feeling that, seeing how other drivers reacted in a similar situation, Verstappen could have slowed down and made the corner by cutting in behind Piastri, but did not want to do so because it would have compromised his entry speed into Turn 2 and left him potentially vulnerable to Russell (as Russell would have been able to take a more optimal line through the corner and thus would have had more momentum on corner exit).

The whole question of when exactly a driver does or does not have a right to room is a vexed question that is going to be somewhat subjective and full of shades of grey - at some point, there will be a question of whether the person making the attacking move is being too optimistic with their actions, particularly in cases where you have a corner sequence of a chicane where the racing line, by it's nature, will cross over sides of the track. We've seen many incidents in the past where we would draw the line at a different point, and no doubt will see many more soon enough.

Whether we necessarily like it is, again, something that will be to personal tastes and, no doubt, we'll draw the line in different places at different times. However, as the sport allows such moves and drivers will inevitably employ them, we therefore have to at least look to how they're enforced and the criteria that the stewards are asked to apply includes the question of the relative positioning of the drivers when on the approach to the apex of the corner.

To that end, it creates a scenario where it can be advantageous for the attacking driver to go into a corner at very high speed - perhaps even at a speed where they would not normally make the corner, or could only do so on a very compromised line - to then claim that they were ahead at the apex and therefore entitled to room. This is where I take Row Man Gross-Gene's position and feel there was an element of Verstappen looking to bend the rules to his advantage in a somewhat cynical way - i.e. there was an incentive for Verstappen to act as if he was being pushed off the track, and that there is a question of how Verstappen was using that knowledge in the way he reacted to Piastri.

No, sorry, I think I might not have been completely clear - my issue with Piastri is because no matter what Verstappen did, he could not have made that first corner even if he had tried, because Piastri barely made it himself. If Piastri had to use the runoff to get around turn 2, how could Verstappen have been expected to?

Again, I'm just trying to make the argument that, regardless of what Verstappen did at the first corner, Piastri's actions were unsporting, and should've been met with a penalty as well. I think both drivers should have been met with harsher penalties as well, like an old-fashioned stop-and-go which couldn't be served alongside a regular pitstop, or something about as harsh as that. It's a bit draconian, yes, but thesw are supposedly the best drivers in the world, so it really sits badly with me that they feel they have the resort to, frankly, childish tactics such as forcing each other off, cutting corners, and other similar moves.

That said, the problem could also be alleviated without such a crappy track on the schedule, as Row-Man says. Jeddah definitely lends itself to these sorts of incidents, I feel.

[Salamander]

Double post here as I've just seen this posted in the GPR Discord, which I think probably explains my thoughts/issues with turn 1 lap 1 better than I could (Screenshot taken from this post on Bluesky)

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

Fair enough Salamander, it seems what you want is a different set of rules. What Piastri did would have broken the rules as they were at an earlier point in time, but right now, what he did was within the rules.

I liked the ruleset described by Maro Engel, I'm not certain why we went away from that. Does anyone else remember why we went away from the "any bit alongside" version of the rules? I can see an issue with that as a rule, as the following car could just not brake, pull the wing alongside, and when the leading car follows the racing line, the following car goes off and says the leading car ran him off the track and get the leading car penalized. I've probably answered my own question there as to why it was changed away from that...

[mario]

Fair enough Salamander, it seems what you want is a different set of rules. What Piastri did would have broken the rules as they were at an earlier point in time, but right now, what he did was within the rules.

I liked the ruleset described by Maro Engel, I'm not certain why we went away from that. Does anyone else remember why we went away from the "any bit alongside" version of the rules? I can see an issue with that as a rule, as the following car could just not brake, pull the wing alongside, and when the leading car follows the racing line, the following car goes off and says the leading car ran him off the track and get the leading car penalized. I've probably answered my own question there as to why it was changed away from that...

That was part of the issue, but there were also questions about whether it ended up actually having some unintentional negative side effects.

Whilst I can see why Salamander has brought up the argument from Engel, Engel is talking about series with enclosed bodywork where, if the sides of both cars touch each other, it's unlikely to cause race ending damage (indeed, both of those series had a tendency to promote a rougher style of driving that encourages bumping into each other).

Open wheeler cars tend to be more vulnerable to heavier damage and potentially more serious accidents occurring if cars do start banging against each other side to side - it's easier for wheels to become interlocked, bodywork to become damaged, suspension to be broken and so on - so, to some extent, drivers in series such as DTM or supercars have a greater liberty to try moves that wouldn't work in open wheeler series because the consequences of such a move are much lower.

In the case of open wheeler series such as F1, and lower series such as F2 and F3, the first bit of bodywork that the attacking driver can position level with the leading car would be their front wing. There is an argument that those rules actually ended up increasing the number of accidents that occurred because those rules encouraged drivers to try and stick the front wing of their car beside the axle of the leading car, even if the probability of actually successfully making a move was relatively low.

What that tended to do was to increase the number of cases where the leading driver would then run over the front wing of the attacking driver, either because of more aggressive driving on the part of one or both drivers, or also just because one or both of those drivers might misjudge the situation. That, in turn, then created more problems for the marshals that then had to clear the track of debris from those incidents.

[Wallio]

I watched FP2 and Quali, but missed the race since it was Easter/Wrestlemania/my father-in-law fell again. But honestly, I have no urge to watch it. So I nominate:

The Jeddah Corniche Circuit - This track is what everyone complains Monaco is. Qualifying is the race. I would LOVE to see World Time Attack there, but a race series? Nah.