2010 Turkish Grand Prix Discussion

Post by **mario** » 30 May 2010, 17:08

Possibly they would have informed Vettel that Mark was on a fuel saving mode. However, if it was the case that Webber made the change in engine mapping himself, then it might not have been immediately apparent to the team what was going on, especially since it appears that he had changed the engine setting that lap.

As for Horner's comments, he has a tricky line to walk - castigating Mark will sour the atmosphere in the team, and could risk setting the drivers at each other's throats. If Mclaren are catching Red Bull, they can't afford any infighting between the drivers (I had, partially in jest, likened this season to 1986 - perhaps I might have accidentally been closer to the mark then perhaps I had first though?). On the other hand, Vettel will feel aggrieved, and think that Mark should take the blame, so he might hold a bit of a grudge against him in the next few races.
So, for now he has to try to take a diplomatic line and not pin the blame on either driver, especially since at the moment feelings will be running high. Equally, blaming one driver or the other in public will create a media frenzy, since they might scent a chance of stirring things up between the drivers for their headlines, and hurt their image. Even so, I suspect that things may not be quite so cordial as once they were at Red Bull...

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 30 May 2010, 17:16

mario wrote:As for Horner's comments, he has a tricky line to walk - castigating Mark will sour the atmosphere in the team, and could risk setting the drivers at each other's throats. If Mclaren are catching Red Bull, they can't afford any infighting between the drivers (I had, partially in jest, likened this season to 1986 - perhaps I might have accidentally been closer to the mark then perhaps I had first though?). On the other hand, Vettel will feel aggrieved, and think that Mark should take the blame, so he might hold a bit of a grudge against him in the next few races.
So, for now he has to try to take a diplomatic line and not pin the blame on either driver, especially since at the moment feelings will be running high. Equally, blaming one driver or the other in public will create a media frenzy, since they might scent a chance of stirring things up between the drivers for their headlines, and hurt their image. Even so, I suspect that things may not be quite so cordial as once they were at Red Bull...

Yup. It's a relief, in a way - Red Bull always tries to pretend everything is all right, everyone is friendly and kind, and it's not that simple, as we all know. Good to see there are actually people, not just marketing puppets, in that team.

If you read the print version of Autosport, there has been a string of articles about how Webber cried enough and very nearly re-invented himself, after being beaten from pole in Malaysia by Vettel. I was also jesting when I said it was 1992 all over again and that Brundle was destroying Schumacher in Benetton - but that's a bit of what it feels like. Vettel has been so cuddled, carried, hyped and adored, he probably started believing he had some sort of divine right. I really do think that Webber has been using that against him, planting the deeds of doubt, acting seemingly cool and relaxed, not asking for a new tub in his car, etc.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 30 May 2010, 19:54

When you have a team that's sculpted around getting your teammate into F1 and making your teammate succeed in F1, do you REALLY think you'll get a new tub if you ask for it?

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 30 May 2010, 19:56

Cynon wrote:When you have a team that's sculpted around getting your teammate into F1 and making your teammate succeed in F1, do you REALLY think you'll get a new tub if you ask for it?

I'm sure they'd come up with a tub if he and his engineer asked for it, Red Bull is not Andrea Moda...

Post by **mario** » 30 May 2010, 20:03

Vettel had already taken a few knocks to his confidence even before Turkey - bear in mind that the back to back victories in Spain and Monaco were the first time that Webber has beaten Vettel to take the win across the whole of the weekend (i.e. dominated in qualifying and the subsequent race) since they started driving alongside each other. Vettel is intensively competitive, and he will have been very unhappy with being beaten twice in a row, so he would have been determined to get one back at Mark. Passing Mark on the track for the win would have given Vettel a chance to stamp his authority on Mark, and knocked Mark back both in terms of confidence and points.

I do suspect that Mark might have the tougher mindset - he has gone through a lot of adversity in his career, when the car let him down, was terribly slow, or he was involved in somebody else's accident and was in the wrong place at the wrong time - whereas Vettel perhaps hasn't had the same level of mental challenges. If Mark was to turn that to his advantage, it might pay dividends, although at the moment Vettel must be pretty wound up anyway.

That said, the heat could well soon be on Mark from the top - Helmut Marko, the motorsport advisor at Red Bull, has come out and criticised Mark quite a bit, saying that he feels that Mark should have yielded the place to Vettel for the benefit of the team.

"We are handling our team and both drivers in the same way," insisted Marko. "Vettel was under such pressure and if such a situation comes up – you have to look after the team. We still could have been 1-2."

He then went on to say that he thought that Mark should have moved across and given Vettel more room

"He [Vettel] was already ahead, at least two metres ahead, and there was a corner to the left side coming, so he had to go for the line," he said. "He cannot brake on the dirt because for sure he knows what happens."

Either way, it could be a difficult time for Mark - Marko has said that Mateschitz is very unhappy with what happened today, and he has made it clear that they do not want this to happen again. Full article here http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84052

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 30 May 2010, 20:52

Mario - you have an uncanny knack of hitting the nail right on the head! Difficult times coming for Webber. For the sake of him, and the sport I hope he comes through and wins the Championship, and then takes the number 1 to somewhere he is more valued and appreciated.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 30 May 2010, 20:54

noisebox wrote:Mario - you have an uncanny knack of hitting the nail right on the head! Difficult times coming for Webber. For the sake of him, and the sport I hope he comes through and wins the Championship, and then takes the number 1 to somewhere he is more valued and appreciated.

What he said.

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 30 May 2010, 21:43

CarlosFerreira wrote:
noisebox wrote:Mario - you have an uncanny knack of hitting the nail right on the head! Difficult times coming for Webber. For the sake of him, and the sport I hope he comes through and wins the Championship, and then takes the number 1 to somewhere he is more valued and appreciated.

What he said.

Can I not agree with another post?

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 30 May 2010, 21:45

noisebox wrote:Mario - you have an uncanny knack of hitting the nail right on the head! Difficult times coming for Webber. For the sake of him, and the sport I hope he comes through and wins the Championship, and then takes the number 1 to somewhere he is more valued and appreciated.

Shades of Damon Hill at Williams, perhaps? Let's hope he doesn't settle for a sub-par team.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 30 May 2010, 22:01

noisebox wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
noisebox wrote:Mario - you have an uncanny knack of hitting the nail right on the head! Difficult times coming for Webber. For the sake of him, and the sport I hope he comes through and wins the Championship, and then takes the number 1 to somewhere he is more valued and appreciated.

What he said.

Can I not agree with another post?

Absolutely. In fact, I am agreeing with you, mate.

Dom · Post by **Dom** » 30 May 2010, 22:11

I think Vettel's got an issue with trying to be too 'macho'. You remember the idiotic push he put on Hamilton in the pit lane in China? Well it was similar to what he did today. He'd done all the hard work of actually making the pass but then he went on to try and impose himself by shoving the other driver across the grass. I think he needs to calm down slightly and stop trying to intimidate his competitors.

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 30 May 2010, 22:18

I cannot believe the rubbish coming out of Red Bull overnight (my time).

Webber gave Vettel legitimate room on the left ... and heaps of room on the right. Button went to the right of Hamilton and made the pass stick. What's wrong with that?

This "didn't give enough room" crap is nothing but sheer favouritism and mollycoddling Sebastian in the press. The Red Bull hierarchy has even justified Sebastian moving across Mark on the basis that (a) he had pulled up a long way alongside, and (b) he needed to brake for the next corner. If (a) is true we might as well start allowing people to barge others out of the way, and as for (b) ... boo-hoo.

The investigation into and explanation for why Vettel was able to close up that lap is a diversion and utterly irrelevant.

Webber might as well give up now. He is the one leading the championship and yet Red Bull clearly prefer Sebastian to be given the express lane to the championship. I cannot believe I'm saying this, but I'm going to go for Button, Alonso or even Hamilton to win the title if Webber can't, so long as Vettel doesn't win it. Accuse me of fanboyism if you want. At least McLaren in 2007, even when Alonso was persona non grata, gave him a fair shot at the title (as far as we could see).

I will write more about this in the review but Webber also has history against him. The history of F1 is filled with teams that had a favoured driver, even if no actual favouritism was shown. Only a handful of times has a driver won the title despite not being the favoured driver in a team. Webber is clearly not the favoured driver at Red Bull.

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 30 May 2010, 22:29

CarlosFerreira wrote:Absolutely. In fact, I am agreeing with you, mate.

Sorry - misunderstanding!

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 30 May 2010, 22:45

eytl wrote:Webber might as well give up now. He is the one leading the championship and yet Red Bull clearly prefer Sebastian to be given the express lane to the championship. I cannot believe I'm saying this, but I'm going to go for Button, Alonso or even Hamilton to win the title if Webber can't, so long as Vettel doesn't win it. Accuse me of fanboyism if you want. At least McLaren in 2007, even when Alonso was persona non grata, gave him a fair shot at the title (as far as we could see).

I have to agree with you here, Enoch, and it's just shown Red Bull and Vettel's horrible underside. Their treatment of Mark has been despicable, and in my books, Vettel has gone from being rather likeable, to being more disliked than Hamilton, in the course of a few hours. It's a good thing this has happened after the Australian Grand Prix, though, otherwise I'd hate to think of the reception they'd get, and still might get next year.

At least Vettel gets to check off another box on his Schumacher emulation list, although it's one everybody would've rather seen remain unchecked.

lostpin · Post by **lostpin** » 30 May 2010, 23:04

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:At least Vettel gets to check off another box on his Schumacher emulation list, although it's one everybody would've rather seen remain unchecked.

I sadly agree... but even Schumacher was cold-headed enough not to make himself so obnoxiously obvious. Vettel, although enjoys the treatment of a superstar, has to come with terms that he's not a multi-WDC. Actually he's not even a single world champion yet. He's more vulnerable than he can imagine.

Dom · Post by **Dom** » 30 May 2010, 23:08

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
eytl wrote:Webber might as well give up now. He is the one leading the championship and yet Red Bull clearly prefer Sebastian to be given the express lane to the championship. I cannot believe I'm saying this, but I'm going to go for Button, Alonso or even Hamilton to win the title if Webber can't, so long as Vettel doesn't win it. Accuse me of fanboyism if you want. At least McLaren in 2007, even when Alonso was persona non grata, gave him a fair shot at the title (as far as we could see).

I have to agree with you here, Enoch, and it's just shown Red Bull and Vettel's horrible underside. Their treatment of Mark has been despicable, and in my books, Vettel has gone from being rather likeable, to being more disliked than Hamilton, in the course of a few hours. It's a good thing this has happened after the Australian Grand Prix, though, otherwise I'd hate to think of the reception they'd get, and still might get next year.

At least Vettel gets to check off another box on his Schumacher emulation list, although it's one everybody would've rather seen remain unchecked.

Interestingly Hamilton seemed to express a similar viewpoint during a post race interview, even to the point that he said he was "glad he [Webber] was able to finish". Paddock opinion swinging away from Vettel, who has been so popular for the past couple of years?

lostpin · Post by **lostpin** » 30 May 2010, 23:17

Dom wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
eytl wrote:Webber might as well give up now. He is the one leading the championship and yet Red Bull clearly prefer Sebastian to be given the express lane to the championship. I cannot believe I'm saying this, but I'm going to go for Button, Alonso or even Hamilton to win the title if Webber can't, so long as Vettel doesn't win it. Accuse me of fanboyism if you want. At least McLaren in 2007, even when Alonso was persona non grata, gave him a fair shot at the title (as far as we could see).

I have to agree with you here, Enoch, and it's just shown Red Bull and Vettel's horrible underside. Their treatment of Mark has been despicable, and in my books, Vettel has gone from being rather likeable, to being more disliked than Hamilton, in the course of a few hours. It's a good thing this has happened after the Australian Grand Prix, though, otherwise I'd hate to think of the reception they'd get, and still might get next year.

At least Vettel gets to check off another box on his Schumacher emulation list, although it's one everybody would've rather seen remain unchecked.

Interestingly Hamilton seemed to express a similar viewpoint during a post race interview, even to the point that he said he was "glad he [Webber] was able to finish". Paddock opinion swinging away from Vettel, who has been so popular for the past couple of years?

Vettel belongs to that rare species of human creatures that due to their unique abilities manage to have too much, too fast and while they're too young (and possibly stupid). He has thrown a fair chance of opportunities by now, and he's doing Red Bull no service by being selfish.

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 30 May 2010, 23:32

I think this answers the question that has dogged F1 in the last few years. Can Vettel overtake in a straight fight? (or standard scenario)

Answer: No

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 30 May 2010, 23:44

eytl wrote:I cannot believe the rubbish coming out of Red Bull overnight (my time).

Webber gave Vettel legitimate room on the left ... and heaps of room on the right. Button went to the right of Hamilton and made the pass stick. What's wrong with that?

This "didn't give enough room" crap is nothing but sheer favouritism and mollycoddling Sebastian in the press. The Red Bull hierarchy has even justified Sebastian moving across Mark on the basis that (a) he had pulled up a long way alongside, and (b) he needed to brake for the next corner. If (a) is true we might as well start allowing people to barge others out of the way, and as for (b) ... boo-hoo.

The investigation into and explanation for why Vettel was able to close up that lap is a diversion and utterly irrelevant.

Webber might as well give up now. He is the one leading the championship and yet Red Bull clearly prefer Sebastian to be given the express lane to the championship. I cannot believe I'm saying this, but I'm going to go for Button, Alonso or even Hamilton to win the title if Webber can't, so long as Vettel doesn't win it. Accuse me of fanboyism if you want. At least McLaren in 2007, even when Alonso was persona non grata, gave him a fair shot at the title (as far as we could see).

I will write more about this in the review but Webber also has history against him. The history of F1 is filled with teams that had a favoured driver, even if no actual favouritism was shown. Only a handful of times has a driver won the title despite not being the favoured driver in a team. Webber is clearly not the favoured driver at Red Bull.

I don't call it fanboyism. I actually liked Vettel more than Webber going into this season, but my opinion has just swung way in the opposite direction today. Also, like you said, if Webber can't do it, I'd be happy for anyone but Vettel (or Hamilton) to become world champion this year.
Red Bull can try to enforce team orders all they like - but you can be sure Webber will just tell them where the can shove it.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 30 May 2010, 23:55

eytl wrote:Webber might as well give up now. He is the one leading the championship and yet Red Bull clearly prefer Sebastian to be given the express lane to the championship. I cannot believe I'm saying this, but I'm going to go for Button, Alonso or even Hamilton to win the title if Webber can't, so long as Vettel doesn't win it. Accuse me of fanboyism if you want. At least McLaren in 2007, even when Alonso was persona non grata, gave him a fair shot at the title (as far as we could see).

I have to be absolutely fair here: when I realised Vettel was going to make it past Webber, I went "Noooo!". I've had a soft spot for Webber ever since he came into F1. You just have to love the man, he'll take on anything, from self-destructing Williamses to being run-over by SUVs, and he's got that genuine fighter's spirit, something I personally can't see in Vettel. I was already part of the anyone-but-Vettel brigade before this.

But now, this has gone a step further. No, unless Red Bull wake up in the morning and realise "wait a minute, we're being complete idiots, what the heck has just happened to us?", and make an effort, in words and actions, to clean this mess up (I'll settle for an"Ooops, sorry!"), then if it can't be Webber, let it be anyone-but-Red Bull. Vettel is just a product of the system inside that team, as the pit wall images during the race showed very clearly.

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 31 May 2010, 00:19

Speaking of Schumacher and publicocrap: http://en.espnf1.com/mercedes/motorspor ... 18935.html

I spent most of the race also watching the live timing and like it mentions, Rosberg tended to be several seconds behind Schumacher. If you're slightly quicker than the person in front, you should be able to tuck about a second behind them, but instead Rosberg actually had a train behind him while Schumi was able to start pulling tenths here and there on him. It wasn't until the very end of the race, when the result wasn't in doubt anymore, that Rosberg slowly closed up. The Mercedes drivers have been so quick to be magnanimous to each other, but are we now witnessing the start of cracks in their relationship as well? Will we look back on Turkey as the beginning of three teammate fights?

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 31 May 2010, 00:23

Hmm, who was that team mate again who most of the times claimed to have actually been faster than Schumacher? I think he was Brazilian...

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 31 May 2010, 00:41

I'm not sure, but I really hope they dig into this:

Q: Is there any reason why he had a jump on you on that particular lap?
MW: Hmm. Maybe.

Q: Did you come out of the previous corner a bit slower on that lap?
MW: Hmm. You guys need to dig more, somewhere else.

----
Q: (Tony Dodgins – Tony Dodgins Associates) Mark, you managed to keep the F-duct cars behind you for 40 laps. I know you told us we’ve got to dig a bit more but were you slower on that lap that Seb caught you, or not?
MW: I wasn’t too slow, no.

----
Q: (Michael Schmidt – Auto, Motor und Sport) And Lewis, you were sitting in the first row, how did you see it?
LH: It was great to watch, it was like an action movie in HD or 3D; it was fantastic. It was right ahead of me. No, I got the best view of it obviously but it’s the last thing you want to see and fortunately Sebastian is safe but I just saw Sebastian go up the inside and Mark held his line. I don’t think he really had much room to move to the right and I don’t think there was necessarily a reason for Sebastian to try to move to the right. I think it was unfortunate for them but all I can say is that it was fortunate for us because we’ve been working hard all year. I think myself and Jenson have deserved to be on the front row for some time and so it was good today.

Q: (Adam Hay-Nicholls - Metro) Mark, did you know if Seb ignored an order to save fuel?
MW: No, wouldn’t have a clue, mate.

Marco · Post by **Marco** » 31 May 2010, 05:30

It wasn't until the very end of the race, when the result wasn't in doubt anymore, that Rosberg slowly closed up.

Rosberg said in an interview to German TV, he wanted the gap, because if the rain had come, there would have been enough time for Schumacher to clear the pits so Nico would not be delayed...

Post by **mario** » 31 May 2010, 08:03

noisebox wrote:Mario - you have an uncanny knack of hitting the nail right on the head! Difficult times coming for Webber. For the sake of him, and the sport I hope he comes through and wins the Championship, and then takes the number 1 to somewhere he is more valued and appreciated.

Ironically, to a certain extent I hope that I am wrong, and that Mark is not hauled over the coals by his team. However, given the nature of the communications coming out of Red Bull, I fear that he is going to be given quite a hrd time of it.

Hopefully, there will be some cool heads within Red Bull that take charge soon, because this episode does have the potential to really disrupt the team, and it could prove to be a big mistake, given that Mclaren are close enough to start threatening them. They need to take stock and calmly appraise the situation; yes, you can see why Vettel wanted to get past Mark, and therefore why he went for the pass, but when you are putting your car in such close proximity to your team mate, who is known for not yielding easily, and has squeezed you to the side of the track, there is always going to be a very high risk that something goes wrong, as it did.
However, yelling at one driver or the other is not going to get those points back from Mclaren, and if anything, they should learn a lesson from Mclaren; give each other more room, so if you make a mistake, it gives the other guy a chance to back out of it. [Speaking of Mclaren, on a side note, I was surprised that Hamilton was so neutral on the podium; then again, he was said to feel that he didn't win on merit, so that might go some way to explaining why he didn't look that happy.]

Either way, this whole eposide is proving to be pretty toxic for Red Bull's image; quite a few former and current drivers have already lined up to say that Vettel bears the blame for that accident, but their calls have fallen on deaf ears at Red Bull so far. Vettel's image of a happy-go-lucky racer now lies in tatters, and Red Bull have the uncomfortable situation where Mark leads the title chase, but not by much, with Hamilton and Button both within 9 points, and Alonso only 14 behind. Now, we know that Cadada could be a weaker track for Red Bull, since the Mclaren duo have a top speed advantage, and in the two times we've been there, Hamilton has been very strong in qualifying. If either he or Button take the win, that will ratchet the pressure up on Red Bull to start backing a driver - and here the trouble will start.
If Webber is ahead in the WDC, it would be sensible to back him; on the other hand, the team owner openly admires Vettel, and there could well be pressure from the top to back him. Either way, Canada could well be quite a tense race...

[Edit] The damage limitation has begun from Horner - he has put out a statement saying that the team will try to resolve the issues between the drivers, and prevent them from venting their frustration on the track. By comparison to Marko, Horner has taken a more balanced line to the situation, as he is blaming both drivers for playing their part in the resultant accident.

C. Horner wrote:"They should never have been where they were on the circuit. It needs both of them to realise. You need a bit of co-operation from both, and they both played hard ball and we saw the net result."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84060

coops · Post by **coops** » 31 May 2010, 10:42

This has sort of happened before dont forget, only then Vettel was in a Toro Rosso.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 31 May 2010, 11:16

coops wrote:This has sort of happened before dont forget, only then Vettel was in a Toro Rosso.

Though that crash was more Hamilton's fault for his stop-start behaviour under the safety car.

bighaydo · Post by **bighaydo** » 31 May 2010, 11:46

Not a good result for Red Bull... just about every commentator that was watching (bar Eddie Jordan, who must surely be looking to preserve any tenuous links he has to the sport in this day and age?) laid the blame at Vettel's door for the accident. I'll admit I'm a Webber fan, but I'm absolutely inclined to agree.

Mark pulled his classic defensive manouvre: he pulled to the extreme left of the circuit and left no more than a car's width for Vettel to pass - as the driver in the lead, he's allowed to (it was one solid move). Webber has done this a lot over the years (witness Suzuka 2005 on Alonso, Fuji 2008 on Massa, Spain 2009 on Alonso) - to widely varying effect. It was actually quite generous that he gave him a car's width - drivers like Schumacher would have been less charitable (witness his move on Alonso at Silverstone 2003). And I thought that drivers learned not to close down uncompromising rival on the straight back in their Formula Ford days... ultimately, with the same powerplant, the pass would not have been complete until they reached turn 12 anyway, and Mark could potentially have used the less dirty side of the track to switch back into the lead should Sebastian have failed to sufficiently scrub off his speed on the muck.

I'll hope that the majority of quotes that have come from the Red Bull camp were taken in the heat of the moment after Seb got back to the pits (I was ready for this bias seeing that Mark was still circulating and likely unable to present his viewpoint effectively), but wearing the black hat I'm inclined to think things might be a little more sinister. They clearly did not present the whole truth initially, declining to present the fact that Mark was told to turn his engine down until after Mark alluded to this in the press conference.

I was quite concerned prior to the double win that Mark was at risk of being subjugated within the Red Bull ranks: Vettel was the kid they bankrolled, the driver that appears on a lot of their promotional material and clearly the apple of Helmut Marko's eye in particular (I see a lot of Vettel praise from him, and there's a solid chance that he doesn't quite know who this Australian bloke is) and almost always gets the preferential call on the final qualifying run or optimum pit strategy. The team seemed to try to smother his recent lack of comparative performance by providing a new tub and blaming some form of mystery delamination... the fact is that Webber has been sublime these past few races while Vettel has been reduced to scowling in the press conferences and looking a lot like this: :evil:

I'm stuck to think of the motivation to push Vettel to this level anyway - the recent FIA/F1 Racing results actually showed that Webber is a (slightly) more popular driver.

Even before this event Vettel was beginning to wear a bit thin with me: he celebrated pole in Australia a bit too much and looked like some kind of pantomime villain that was pumping the air and extending his index finger to the point of almost soliciting boos from the parochial home crowd of his team mate. Plus this latest Gen-Y influx of spoiled brats that have had the easy road into F1 and thinking they own the place aren't exactly winning me over in the slightest.

But ultimately, I can't quite believe what I am hearing when the blame is being leveled at Mark: here was a guy that led from the lights going out, resisted Hamilton in a car with a clear straight-line advantage... and was coming off the back of two imperious lights to flag wins. Mark seemed a little perplexed on the Saturday when Vettel took the last qualifying run when that was something that was supposed to be bequeathed to him (and nonetheless took pole anyway). And when, having to dial his Renault back, his teammate was permitted to attack on full power, just what was he supposed to do?

The team have pointed at McLaren about how teammates could fight safely: but I wouldn't believe it - there was no higher skill involved when they almost ran into each other at turn 1 when Hamilton successfully re-passed, and strangely enough the whole thing ended when McLaren insisted that both drivers 'save fuel' - almost a code word for "cut it out, you saw what happened to the guys that were in front of you". No wonder both drivers seemed a little downcast after the race.

At least Mark tried to be diplomatic in the press conference, and the whole thing could have been avoided if the team were willing to say it was a little Column A and Column B from the outset. From my view, Mark seemed to be controlling the race in close quarters, taking wider lines to avoid scrubbing out his tyres, and not even flinching when Lewis was waving around in his mirrors (why couldn't Sebastian do that himself? Hamilton wasn't even looking at him, which gives even less credence to the Red Bull PR machine). There's even a chance that Mark being told to conserve fuel was a bit of a bum steer from the team, seeing that he was setting fastest laps in the closing stages. Why was nobody concerned about fuel then?

I could go on, but that might be enough of a rant for the moment...

coops · Post by **coops** » 31 May 2010, 14:30

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
coops wrote:This has sort of happened before dont forget, only then Vettel was in a Toro Rosso.

Though that crash was more Hamilton's fault for his stop-start behaviour under the safety car.

If you drive your car into the back of someone its your fault irrespective of what going on up ahead. Im sure Webber was annoyed at Seb in the interview afterwards, I bet this brought it all back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiJYXj6AXkM

Watch from 2.25 for the sort of fruity language Mark probably also used yesterday regarding Vettel!

LukeB · Post by **LukeB** » 31 May 2010, 14:32

bighaydo wrote:(bar Eddie Jordan, who must surely be looking to preserve any tenuous links he has to the sport in this day and age?)

Is this the same Eddie Jordan that said McLaren should just set fire to their car and start again last year? And said he'd consider firing Raikkonen for eating ice cream at the Malaysian GP? The guy may be many things (like wrong in this case), but he's not backward in coming forward.

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 31 May 2010, 16:48

It does seem that the new rules have an inbuilt mechanism for causing team punch ups, which both Red Bull and McClaren demonstrated yesterday. It goes like this:-

Your team-mate streaks off into the lead (or second place) and gets involved in a big ding dong battle.

Meanwhile you wisely toddle around behind conserving your fuel and tyres for later in race. (Just like Prost in the 1980's.)

Come the end of the race you have more fuel/tyres than your team-mate and you try to waltz pass him when he has been told to turn the wick down, because at that stage you are in better shape.

However, this mightily pisses off your team-mate who feels he has earned his lead, and/or pisses off the team who were hoping for a quiet cruise in to a 1-2 finish rather than a last gasp battle. (Of course if you crash whilst waltzing past, you piss off everyone.)

Both the Red Bull and McClaren battles come down to this, and so probably we will see the same thing again.

On this basis. I have a feeeling that it was Jenson who was done out of victory on Sunday, more than Mark. Everyone else would have had to turn the wick down to get to the end of the race, but I reckon Jenson was probably in pretty good shape having stayed out of scraps for most of the race. If Vettel and Webber hadn't crashed, then McClaren would have let Jenson go past Lewis so that he could have a go at them. And then who knows? As it was team orders came into play and Jenson was not able to capitalise on his fifty laps of conserving the car.

Post by **mario** » 31 May 2010, 17:03

coops wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
coops wrote:This has sort of happened before dont forget, only then Vettel was in a Toro Rosso.

Though that crash was more Hamilton's fault for his stop-start behaviour under the safety car.

If you drive your car into the back of someone its your fault irrespective of what going on up ahead. Im sure Webber was annoyed at Seb in the interview afterwards, I bet this brought it all back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiJYXj6AXkM

Watch from 2.25 for the sort of fruity language Mark probably also used yesterday regarding Vettel!

Actually, when he mentioned that, I was thinking of 2008 when Vettel had several retirements in the opening races due to accidents.

bighaydo wrote: I was quite concerned prior to the double win that Mark was at risk of being subjugated within the Red Bull ranks: Vettel was the kid they bankrolled, the driver that appears on a lot of their promotional material and clearly the apple of Helmut Marko's eye in particular (I see a lot of Vettel praise from him, and there's a solid chance that he doesn't quite know who this Australian bloke is) and almost always gets the preferential call on the final qualifying run or optimum pit strategy. The team seemed to try to smother his recent lack of comparative performance by providing a new tub and blaming some form of mystery delamination... the fact is that Webber has been sublime these past few races while Vettel has been reduced to scowling in the press conferences and looking a lot like this: I'm stuck to think of the motivation to push Vettel to this level anyway - the recent FIA/F1 Racing results actually showed that Webber is a (slightly) more popular driver.

It is true that Marko loves to sing Vettel's praises, as does Mateschitz (who had earmarked Vettel out for a seat at Red Bull when he had only just got his seat at Toro Rosso), and Vettel has been the poster boy for Red Bull instead of Webber. I expect that to a certain extent, some of the comments made by Marko, and others at Red Bull, were made in the heat of the moment, but, who knows, they might have hinted to a slightly darker side of the team.
It is true that Vettel has not taken well to being beaten by Mark - we've seen how much he was scowling in the press conferences. That said, at times, you could say that he has revelled a little too much in his own success; the celebrations in Australia after qualifying almost seemed calculated to cause maximum insult to Mark's home crowd (and it is known that Vettel had wanted to win in front of his home crown in 2009, when Mark took the win instead ), and in Malaysia, he seemed to delight in reminding Mark in the press conference about how he passed him at the start, to the latter's evident discomfort. Ironically, in many ways that has been what has kicked Mark into a higher gear - we know that he was determined not to let it happen again, and was charging from the off in Spain and Monaco, trying to break Vettel's self confidence.
Now, we know that Vettel was pretty keen to win again, given that Mark hasn't beaten him twice in a row before in a straight fight, and perhaps that made him just a little impetuous; either way, he'll be regretting his decision.

bighayo wrote:The team have pointed at McLaren about how teammates could fight safely: but I wouldn't believe it - there was no higher skill involved when they almost ran into each other at turn 1 when Hamilton successfully re-passed, and strangely enough the whole thing ended when McLaren insisted that both drivers 'save fuel' - almost a code word for "cut it out, you saw what happened to the guys that were in front of you". No wonder both drivers seemed a little downcast after the race.

That was something Eddie Jordan asked Whitmarsh about, and quite forcefully too (with the "What did you say to your drivers?" comment). To be fair, Whitmarsh was doing the sensible thing; Hamilton and Button could easily have taken each other out (they were perhaps a little more circumspect when duelling, but they weren't exactly holding back that much), which could have gifted the win back to Mark (and put him a long way ahead in the standings), and would have made them look like right idiots for doing exactly what Mark and Vettel had just done a few laps before them.
As for why he was trying to be so even handed, I cannot say; evidently, from watching the video footage, he thought that both drivers played their part (and I can see how you could come to such a decision). Still, he doesn't always back away from controversial decisions, and has been provocative in the past. At times, you can see why he would have made those calls (after all, the MP4-24 was, frankly, hopeless early in the season, and most people would have given up on it when Mclaren continued - and they did salvage 3rd in the constructors, so it did pay off for them. As for Kimi, he wasn't the only one to criticise him for the coke and ice cream antics, and a few people were already calling for Kimi to step aside after struggling in 2008).

watka · Post by **watka** » 31 May 2010, 20:48

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 713780.stm - Both drivers give their side's of the story. I'm guessing that where Vettel says he "suddenly lost control of the car" he's eluding to the car touching Webber's, rather than getting out of shape on the dirty side of the track.

Guzuky · Post by **Guzuky** » 31 May 2010, 22:02

eytl wrote:And interesting to see Lewis and Mark having a private conversation about the Red Bull clash. Lewis, having been right behind, seemed to suggest that he thought Vettel had moved across. Webber's hand gestures and nod seemed to be saying, "Yeah that's right, he just moved across on me."

Who better than Hamilton to confirm it?? and what was Red Bull expecting? for Webber to fade away? Sad sad sad, they (Red Bull) are going to destroy what may be Mark's only shot at the title

Guzuky · Post by **Guzuky** » 31 May 2010, 22:07

Hamilton, who took his first win of the year, sided with Webber and said: "I am very surprised with the move Vettel did.

"You have to be sensible. It was a dangerous move because I tried to go on the outside of him. He turned towards me, there was no reason to turn right.

"He did the same thing with Mark and unfortunately he took himself out. Mark has driven well in the last few races and I am glad he was able to do finish."

From the link provided above (the BBC one)

That comes from Hamilton, and apparently Vettel tried to do it twice...

Post by **mario** » 02 Jun 2010, 19:37

One last little bit about the Turkish GP, and an interesting development for the RB6.

It appears that Newey has been bending the rules a bit at Red Bull, which explains why there were so many mechanics trying to shield the rear end of their car. It appears that the rear suspension arms were given an aerofoil shape, and angled with a 20 degree angle of attack to the incident airflow (when the regulations limit you to 5 degrees), turning them into moveable aerodynamic devices.
To avoid any more problems with the FIA, it seems that Red Bull covered the offending parts with tubular sections, so those parts no longer produce any downforce (at the end of this article, which also suggests that Red Bull will not race the F-duct at Canada, despite trialling it in Turkey, and will now bring it to Valencia at the earliest). http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... 19139.html

coops · Post by **coops** » 04 Jun 2010, 10:38

On the BBCs gossip page Autosport are quoted as saying Horner instructed Webbers race engineer to tell Webber to move over and let Vettel past. Pilbeam refused and the rest we know. IMHO that is more damaging than the drivers colliding. Horners authority is clearly compromised and his decison making questionable.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 04 Jun 2010, 10:43

coops wrote:On the BBCs gossip page Autosport are quoted as saying Horner instructed Webbers race engineer to tell Webber to move over and let Vettel past. Pilbeam refused and the rest we know. IMHO that is more damaging than the drivers colliding. Horners authority is clearly compromised and his decison making questionable.

Yeah, I read that. The paper goes on to mention how Mark and Phil have a very strong relationship, and Pilbean couldn't quite bring himself to do it. You can see why: it has since transpired that both the Red Bulls and the McLarens were fueled short at the beginning to maximise performance, and at least Pilbean knew that Vettel would have to wind the engine down soon - so he had no incentive to tell Mark to let Sebastien through, when he knew that Vettel's engine advantage could only go on for for a couple of laps or so.

coops · Post by **coops** » 04 Jun 2010, 10:49

CarlosFerreira wrote:Yeah, I read that. The paper goes on to mention how Mark and Phil have a very strong relationship, and Pilbean couldn't quite bring himself to do it.

Assuming Pilbeam was sitting to Horners left on the pit-wall it adds a new context to Horners gesture when the crash happened. It could be interpreted as a "Look what you caused!"

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 04 Jun 2010, 10:56

coops wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:Yeah, I read that. The paper goes on to mention how Mark and Phil have a very strong relationship, and Pilbean couldn't quite bring himself to do it.

Assuming Pilbeam was sitting to Horners left on the pit-wall it adds a new context to Horners gesture when the crash happened. It could be interpreted as a "Look what you caused!"

Exactly. It also adds a further layer of complexity to understand the team's reaction, and raises a very interesting question: if Horner gave the order to Pilbean, how was it that he didn't see to it that Pilbean passed it on to Mark? If Mark's engineer refused to do it outright, or if Horner had realised the order hadn't gone through, he could have gone in the radio himself and overridden the engineer. For me, this turns a spotlight on the shakiest of F1 managers...