Reject Engines...

[Faustus]

What about the almost-certainly-would-have-been-rejects-if-they-had-actually-tried-to-race-them, like the Neotech V12 and the MGN W12?

And the turbo Matra V6 that Ligier were going to have.

[chrismc_DC2]

I'd also like to nominate the Judd CV series purely because when Williams' engines were like this:

Honda (87) - Judd CV (88) - Renault (89)

The corresponding constructor's championship positions looked like this:

1st (87) - 7th (88) - 2nd (89)

I think the Judds' biggest problem was the fact it was effectively a customer unit & John Judd didn't have manufacturer backing to develop it further....

In 1988 the Judds were in their infancy as the transition to the 3.5L formula began, & suffered a fair number of blow-ups as a result. Most were overheating related as i recall, especially in the Williams, so much of this could have been down to packaging. Also perhaps as a result of striving for more power to vainly hold onto the Turbo cars. The March was a decent car, & the engine seemed well suited to it towards the tail end of the season. The less said about the Ligier & its twin-fuel tanks the better!

As the 1989 & 1990 seasons unfolded though, the Judd development seemed to slow right down & the engine was left behind by the V10's & V12's. Only the super-slippery March showed the odd bit of form...

The Judd V10 in 1991 I actually thought was half decent in the Dallara....but pretty sure it only powered the hopeless Brabhams in 1992? Were the early Yamaha V10's further developments of the Judd unit i wonder? My memory fails me....

[Nuppiz]

The Judd V10 in 1991 I actually thought was half decent in the Dallara....but pretty sure it only powered the hopeless Brabhams in 1992? Were the early Yamaha V10's further developments of the Judd unit i wonder? My memory fails me....

In 1992 Judd powered not only Brabham, but also none other than Andrea Moda! And Yamaha OX10 and OX11 engines were based on Judd GV, HV and JV engines, but they had developed their own engines before that in 1989-1991 (OX and OX99).

[Faustus]

The Judd V10 in 1991 I actually thought was half decent in the Dallara....but pretty sure it only powered the hopeless Brabhams in 1992? Were the early Yamaha V10's further developments of the Judd unit i wonder? My memory fails me....

In 1992 Judd powered not only Brabham, but also none other than Andrea Moda! And Yamaha OX10 and OX11 engines were based on Judd GV, HV and JV engines, but they had developed their own engines before that in 1989-1991 (OX and OX99).

And that engine is still around to this day, in sportscar specification.

[Irisado]

Lots of good candidates have already been mentioned, although I feel the worst engines should be those which were consistently poor, rather than those which just had the odd bad season, such as Mercedes.

Bearing that in mind, Alfa Romeo's turbo engines from the 1980s spring to mind. They weren't that great in the works cars, so when Osella used them from 1984-1988, they weren't ever going to get much joy out of them. In fact, it's questionable whether they were much of an improvement over the old normally aspirated Alfa Romeo V12s which Osella used in 1983, and on Gartner's car at the 1984 San Marino Grand Prix, where he out qualified Ghinzani's turbo powered machine.

Still, there were engines which were much worse in my opinion, the Motori Moderni was woefully unreliable, the Subaru flat 12 was totally gutless and very overweight, and that, along with the Porsche V12 in the back of the Footwork are the only two engines which were so bad that they were ditched mid season in favour of Cosworth V8s, which sort of says it all really.

Having said that, I've overlooked Life, whose W12 really should win this contest in my opinion, as it never lasted more than two or three laps at a time at any pre-qualifying session. Didn't Bruno Giacomelli once say that he got a shock driving that car when for one moment he heard the engine make a funny sound, and he could swear that for just one second all of the cylinders were actually working?

[Klon]

[...] they backed him up with Heiko Wasser, who is the James Allen of German TV.

Off topic now, sorry for that, but I feel the desire to say that this judgement is completely unjustified. Wasser still plays patriotic cards, but not more than other commentators do and in no way as often as Allen did. And he is way less ... "shouting" than Allen, making a race quite acceptable. Of course the German announcers make avoidable mistakes but it's in no way as bad as many viewers make it seem like.

[midgrid]

Lots of good candidates have already been mentioned, although I feel the worst engines should be those which were consistently poor, rather than those which just had the odd bad season, such as Mercedes.

Bearing that in mind, Alfa Romeo's turbo engines from the 1980s spring to mind. They weren't that great in the works cars, so when Osella used them from 1984-1988, they weren't ever going to get much joy out of them. In fact, it's questionable whether they were much of an improvement over the old normally aspirated Alfa Romeo V12s which Osella used in 1983, and on Gartner's car at the 1984 San Marino Grand Prix, where he out qualified Ghinzani's turbo powered machine.

Still, there were engines which were much worse in my opinion, the Motori Moderni was woefully unreliable, the Subaru flat 12 was totally gutless and very overweight, and that, along with the Porsche V12 in the back of the Footwork are the only two engines which were so bad that they were ditched mid season in favour of Cosworth V8s, which sort of says it all really.

Having said that, I've overlooked Life, whose W12 really should win this contest in my opinion, as it never lasted more than two or three laps at a time at any pre-qualifying session. Didn't Bruno Giacomelli once say that he got a shock driving that car when for one moment he heard the engine make a funny sound, and he could swear that for just one second all of the cylinders were actually working?

And Motori Moderni was established by Carlo Chiti, who had previously worked for the Alfa F1 project.

[Irisado]

And Motori Moderni was established by Carlo Chiti, who had previously worked for the Alfa F1 project.

Good point.

I think we all should feel rather sorry for Carlo Chiti, as it seems that every engine project he got involved in was a disaster!

[RejectSteve]

Bearing that in mind, Alfa Romeo's turbo engines from the 1980s spring to mind. They weren't that great in the works cars, so when Osella used them from 1984-1988, they weren't ever going to get much joy out of them. In fact, it's questionable whether they were much of an improvement over the old normally aspirated Alfa Romeo V12s which Osella used in 1983, and on Gartner's car at the 1984 San Marino Grand Prix, where he out qualified Ghinzani's turbo powered machine.

I seem to recall that the engines were such a disappointment that late in the engine's life span Alfa Romeo requested Osella to rebadge the engine to Osella. When you don't want your name associated with your own product, that's rejectworthy.

I think we all should feel rather sorry for Carlo Chiti, as it seems that every engine project he got involved in was a disaster!

Well, he was the common denominator in all of these disasters.

[Irisado]

I seem to recall that the engines were such a disappointment that late in the engine's life span Alfa Romeo requested Osella to rebadge the engine to Osella. When you don't want your name associated with your own product, that's rejectworthy.

You are absolutely correct, in that Enzo Osella discovered that Alfa Romeo were no longer going to develop the engines, therefore, he decided the team would develop it themselves, but it still ended up being labelled an Alfa Romeo engine on all the results sheets, so I'm not too sure what its final status (in terms of its name) actually was in 1988.

[Faustus]

I seem to recall that the engines were such a disappointment that late in the engine's life span Alfa Romeo requested Osella to rebadge the engine to Osella. When you don't want your name associated with your own product, that's rejectworthy.

You are absolutely correct, in that Enzo Osella discovered that Alfa Romeo were no longer going to develop the engines, therefore, he decided the team would develop it themselves, but it still ended up being labelled an Alfa Romeo engine on all the results sheets, so I'm not too sure what its final status (in terms of its name) actually was in 1988.

Alfa Romeo by then was pouring money into Bernie's coffers for that Procar championship that never happened.

[noisebox]

Based on this years results, I'd say the Honda engine was a dud in 07 & 08...

I got a bit of stick for posting this, yes, the Honda was crap all round last year, but having just re read Autocourse they list it as the least powerful engine in 08. That must be ehy Brawn are so impressed with the Mercedes.

[Nuppiz]

so I'm not too sure what its final status (in terms of its name) actually was in 1988.

Osella 890T 1.5 V8T, it seems.

[WeirdKerr]

so I'm not too sure what its final status (in terms of its name) actually was in 1988.

Osella 890T 1.5 V8T, it seems.

a 1.5 V8 has got 1 major disatvantage..... tiny pistons....

i wonder if it was 2 x 750cc fiat panda engines joined at the bottom with turbo's slapped on..... lol

[Popi_Larrauri]

The '96 Mercedes engine apparently wasn't brilliant either. Loads of mapping problems and power delivery that Hakkinen & Coulthard characterised with phrases like "all over the place", I have to go find whatever book or annual I read that.

There's also the Ford ED series from 95-98, it seems to have been the top engine Ford supplied in 1995, either because they were without a works team, or because it was their works engine, I don't know which. They were a "customer" engine subsequently, before there were Ztech engines all round for 1998. The 18 points Sauber somehow accumulated with it in 1995 is the best it ever did. By far.

Sauber had the factory Zetec-R engines in 1995, as did Benetton in 1994 and earlier. Wasn't the infamous 1997 Lola team powered by Zetecs as well?

The Zetec spam of life where: 1994 under Benetton (a great drivers championship. Sauber designed 1995 car for a Mercedes V10, but Mercedes pulled the plug after switching to the Works deal with McLaren. I don´t know wich the prospect of the Ford Zetec was for Ford, since they were already providing ED V8's to the rest of the field and Zetec R V8 to Sauber as a last resource. In fact, that Sauber had multiple problems and, combined with the low profile return of Wendlinger, Boullion inexperience (in some articles people kill him, to me, he was a bit inexperienced, but grossly misvaluated on par with Frentzen) the year was about to be a lost one. Before French GP Sauber made a heavy revision of the chassis that made the upturn in fortunes (including a podium for Frentzen in Germany).

In 1996 Sauber is promised the Zetec V10 as an engine that would rival Renaults and Ferrari's V10. They were a disaster, giving a lot of vibrations (I read an article from Sauber saying that they had a chain insted of gears in the camshaft, wich to me is quiet absurd, but, OK, if Peter said so...) underpowered and heavy. Zetec V8 (and this kepts me totally amazed, because this engine seemed to have a better hand over the EDs, went to... Forti! Nowhere better to place them?. Forti by those days were not anymore the untedted team. They were a tottal disaster going dire straits, and predictably lasted no more than six or seven races before folding, therefore, the Zetec V8 received no more development (or whatsoever had had under de contract with Forti).

That very same engine, withuot any updrage was fit in Lolas... Well, I don't have to explain, from all places on earth, here, what happened. Zetec R, CR & VJ V10 soldiered on with some success (even running in Minardi 98-2000 with old specs, wich should say something, but it doesn't: they were crappy even on the Works spec.

The Zetec V8 just passed away, like all the V8s. In fact (before changing regulations to 2.6 L engines), the last race a V8 had was in Jerez, both Minardi (with Harts) and Tyrrell on Ford ED ran there for the last time.

But to me, there was always some kind of "missign part sindrome" about how an engine started winning a driver championship and ended in the very core of rejectdom in a spam of 3 years.

Faustus, you are the guru here! If I´m not correct, the true be said!

[Irisado]

As far as I am aware the V10 engine used by Stewart in from 1997-1999, Tyrrell in 1998, and Minardi from 1998-2001 were not Zetec engines, rather they were new Ford Cosworth engines which were designed to replace the ED V8 which was last used by Minardi in 1996 and Tyrrell in 1997.

The Cosworth V10 was derived from the engine which Sauber used in 1996, but I don't think this V10 was classified as a Zetec engine. I think, if I remember correctly, the Zetec was only ever a V8, and it was last used by Forti and Lola in 1996 and 1997, as you correctly say.

One thing I can confirm is that the Ford Cosworth V10 did have chain driven camshafts in 1997, and these engines were then handed down to Tyrrell and Minardi for 1998, while Stewart received a new version, without those such primitive devices. The irony of course was that the Stewart carbon fibre gearbox of 1998 was so bad, that Minardi and Tyrrell had a better reliability record, in spite of the predictable failures they suffered of those Ford Cosworth engines.

[WeirdKerr]

oh how i miss those days when we had at least one engine spectaculary grenading its self per race.........

[Irisado]

oh how i miss those days when we had at least one engine spectaculary grenading its self per race.........

If you want a modern example of this happening, there was the most unexpected mega engine failure for Kubica's BMW in yesterday's practice session at Monaco (go to BBC sport's F1 page to see the clip). It was so spectacular it reminded of a turbo engine failure from the late 1980s. I wish engines failed more often too, but that's a debate for another thread I suspect.

[Faustus]

Yeah, I'm afraid that the advances in quality assurance, quality control, manufacturing techniques, materials science and simulation have almost eliminated the likelihood of catastrophic failures in engines. You need only take a look at the percentage of cars that retire from a race.

[Jack O Malley]

(go to BBC sport's F1 page to see the clip).

Can't find it... could you please paste a direct link?

[Faustus]

(go to BBC sport's F1 page to see the clip).

Can't find it... could you please paste a direct link?

Here you go:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 062302.stm

[Faustus]

Double post, sorry.

[Jack O Malley]

Thank you guys.

[Waris]

Bearing that in mind, Alfa Romeo's turbo engines from the 1980s spring to mind. They weren't that great in the works cars, so when Osella used them from 1984-1988, they weren't ever going to get much joy out of them. In fact, it's questionable whether they were much of an improvement over the old normally aspirated Alfa Romeo V12s which Osella used in 1983, and on Gartner's car at the 1984 San Marino Grand Prix, where he out qualified Ghinzani's turbo powered machine.

I seem to recall that the engines were such a disappointment that late in the engine's life span Alfa Romeo requested Osella to rebadge the engine to Osella. When you don't want your name associated with your own product, that's rejectworthy.

I think we all should feel rather sorry for Carlo Chiti, as it seems that every engine project he got involved in was a disaster!

Well, he was the common denominator in all of these disasters.

He should design an engine called "Chiti" and have that power all the new teams in 2010.

[Fitch]

BRM H-16

[watka]

No one has mentioned those distinctly average Mecachrome/Playlife/Supertec engines that Williams, Benetton, and BAR all used. It seems that as soon as Renault pulled out, it was down to the engine makers to sort themselves out (Renault used to use Mecachrome to make the engines when they where still badged as Renault) and they fell apart. The advantage swung away from Benetton and Williams in 1998, and to McLaren and Ferrari. I think that was down to the engines as much as it was the rule changes at the time.

[Faustus]

BRM H-16

This lump actually won a race, though. Jim Clark, Lotus 43, US Grand Prix at Watkins Glen 1966.

[crazydude1992]

BRM H-16

This lump actually won a race, though. Jim Clark, Lotus 43, US Grand Prix at Watkins Glen 1966.

Yeah, but using the same engine for 9 years, till 1975 is not smart. The Lotus 72 got bad in 1975.

[Faustus]

BRM H-16

This lump actually won a race, though. Jim Clark, Lotus 43, US Grand Prix at Watkins Glen 1966.

Yeah, but using the same engine for 9 years, till 1975 is not smart. The Lotus 72 got bad in 1975.

It wasn't the same engine . The H16 was dropped at the end of 66 and they designed a new V12 for 1967, which was indeed used until the bitter end, albeit highly revised. Completely different engine, but that one won 4 races.

[Nin13]

those Asia tech engines on Arrows.............OR


Mercedes and Honda engines in 2004 & 2005 which went off almost every race...............

[Irisado]

No one has mentioned those distinctly average Mecachrome/Playlife/Supertec engines that Williams, Benetton, and BAR all used. It seems that as soon as Renault pulled out, it was down to the engine makers to sort themselves out (Renault used to use Mecachrome to make the engines when they where still badged as Renault) and they fell apart. The advantage swung away from Benetton and Williams in 1998, and to McLaren and Ferrari. I think that was down to the engines as much as it was the rule changes at the time.

The reason why the Mechachrome engines haven't been mentioned is because, as you say, they were average. They were neither good nor bad, just unremarkable, so they don't really qualify as reject engines on that basis in my opinion.

As for the Asiatech engine which was mentioned, it was much more reliable than the old Peugeot engine it was based on, so I would argue it was actually superior to the 2000 Peugeot engine, and not really a reject engine. In addition, Minardi did alright with the engine in 2002, and even the performance of Arrows with the 2001 engine, was far from disgraceful; indeed the old Yamaha/Hart engine that Arrows used in 1998 and 1999 was, arguably, much worse in my view.

[BB01]

This lump actually won a race, though. Jim Clark, Lotus 43, US Grand Prix at Watkins Glen 1966.

Yeah, but using the same engine for 9 years, till 1975 is not smart. The Lotus 72 got bad in 1975.

It wasn't the same engine . The H16 was dropped at the end of 66 and they designed a new V12 for 1967, which was indeed used until the bitter end, albeit highly revised. Completely different engine, but that one one won 4 races.

And Lotus didn't use any BRM engine after mid-67 because they were involved with the development of the Cosworth and used that until the early 80s.

Also, didn't Arrows run in about '98-ish with their own branded engine? I think it was developed by Hart...

[Fitch]

Actually the BRM H-16 was what prompted Chapmen to convince Ford to finance the Cosworth DFV......


and yes, 98 and 99 Arrows ran with Arrows V-10s

[Debaser]

I think Arrows bought Hart and all his engine making facilities and aimed to develop the engine themselves. They gave up after 99 because they were so down onpower and got a Supertec for 2000. The Asiatech engine they got in 01 sucked, maybe Faustus has something to say about this.

[Faustus]

I think Arrows bought Hart and all his engine making facilities and aimed to develop the engine themselves. They gave up after 99 because they were so down onpower and got a Supertec for 2000. The Asiatech engine they got in 01 sucked, maybe Faustus has something to say about this.

Who summons me?
Brian Hart sold his business to Tom Walkinshaw in 1998 and retired to the South of France, to a village just outside of Nice whose name escapes me, where he lives to this day, quite happily.
The Asiatech engine wasn't particularly bad, just basically under-powered, but they were free. Asiatech couldn't afford to carry out much development of the Peugeot engines. They were nice and easy to package, as they were pretty small and quite good on the cooling requirements, but the power and torque curves were of basically a 2 year-old engine.

[watka]

No one has mentioned those distinctly average Mecachrome/Playlife/Supertec engines that Williams, Benetton, and BAR all used. It seems that as soon as Renault pulled out, it was down to the engine makers to sort themselves out (Renault used to use Mecachrome to make the engines when they where still badged as Renault) and they fell apart. The advantage swung away from Benetton and Williams in 1998, and to McLaren and Ferrari. I think that was down to the engines as much as it was the rule changes at the time.

The reason why the Mechachrome engines haven't been mentioned is because, as you say, they were average. They were neither good nor bad, just unremarkable, so they don't really qualify as reject engines on that basis in my opinion.

Fair enough, they were midfield engines, but the teams that they were supplying should have been teams that were challenging for race wins (Williams and Benetton), and not one did those engines ever win a race. Looking at Villeneuve, winning the championship the season before, then getting lapped in the first race of the next season. Williams got 3 podiums all year, Benetton got 2, such was McLaren's and Ferrari's advantage.

[Irisado]

Fair enough, they were midfield engines, but the teams that they were supplying should have been teams that were challenging for race wins (Williams and Benetton), and not one did those engines ever win a race. Looking at Villeneuve, winning the championship the season before, then getting lapped in the first race of the next season. Williams got 3 podiums all year, Benetton got 2, such was McLaren's and Ferrari's advantage.

All true, but poor chassis design had a big part to play in the poor performance of the cars of these two teams in 1998, especially Williams, who never did manage to get the rear end of their car to stick when cornering.

[Debaser]

A reject engine is the 1994 Peugeot engine. When bored today I read parts of Martin Brundle's book, and he talks a bit about Peugeot in 1994. The engine was underpowered, had big problems containing oil and water, and had a habit of shedding its flywheel. A couple of times the flywheel came off, went through the workings of the unit and set fire to the oil (the flywheel flying off caused the faliure at Interlagos and that massive accident that nearly killed Brundle and Verstappen). To top it off Peugeot blamed Martin for the Silverstone debacle when the engine caught fire on the grid and it was Peugeot's fault, and tried to get Alliot the 2nd seat ahead of Brundle.

[Osiris13]

The Lamborghini V12's were actually pretty good....just a bit heavy IIRC, & development no doubt suffered as they were only ever powering very mediocre chassis' such as Larrousse, Lotus & Minardi.....they certainly sounded lovely!!

Another reject suggestion could be the Yamaha V12 used by Jordan in 1992. This engine was a development of that used by Martin Brundle & Mark Blundell in the 1991 Brabhams. Jordan grabbed the chance of a "manufacturer" engine after customer ford HB's in 1991, but the Yamaha proved to be pretty feeble. I remember reading the Jordans were only just quicker than the best F3000 cars on the straights at Hockenheim, & Mauricio Gugelmin had kindly received a tow from his mate Ayrton Senna in qualifying in a vain attempt to move him up the grid.....Im sure Brian Hart was employed to try & extract more from the Yamaha, but ultimately built his own V10 for Jordan to use in 1993.....

What about the Yamaha V8 used in 1989 by Zakspeed with Bernd Schneider driving??.....anyone know anything about that?

I think that Yamaha overheated so badly in pre-season testing that they just had to turn the wick down, subsequently rendering it underpowered.

[watka]

Hi guys,

I by no means have a good understanding of F1 engineering and technology, but inspired by the PURE engine thread in Stoddart forum, I thought I'd start a thread to discuss some of the worst engines in F1!

The 3 obvious reject engines that stick out for me are the Life W12, Subaru flat-12, and the Porsche V12. All huge, heavy engines that were massively underpowered.

In more recent times I remember the Supertec's blowing up every 2 seconds, particularly when in the back of the BARs.