The best F1 driver(s) that Grand Prix racing has produced...

[kowalski]

I got to thinking about (some of) our minor obsessions with Japanese drivers in F1. Firstly why is this? (things like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i72SExnu4jE obviously helps!) and where do our heroes stand in the hall of fame?

I thought it would be interesting to compare some of the cream using the current points system (I have taken 7 drivers – mention any others I have missed):
Kamui Kobayashi – 27 points (14 races, 20 actual points)
Kazuki Nakajima – 34 points (36 races, 9 actual points)
Shinji Nakano - 45 points (33 races, 2 actual points)
Ukyo Katayama – 65 points (97 races, 5 actual points)
Aguri Suzuki – 88 points (88 races, 8 actual points (1 podium))
Takuma Sato – 135 points (93 Races, 44 actual points (1 podium))
Satoru Nakajima – 154 points(!!!) (80 Races, 16 actual points (1 fastest lap))

Obviously the board-favourite Kobayashi has a long way to go to go to work his way up but he has shown some genuine talent in some of his drives. Will he make it or will he end up as another almost-but-not-quite-but-we-still-love-him Japanese driver? He still hasn’t escaped reject status and even then he will need to go a fair way to match the level of Sato & Nakajima (and even Katayama & Suzuki) if he wants to be classed as the best of the best...

It also shows how much the new points system is going to make a joke out of the record books... (Taku & Satoru would both have more points under this system than Gilles Villeneuve actually got in his career... )

Anyway I just thought I would throw this out and see what people think about this...

Edit: added the 'great' Shinji

[shinji]

Uh, NAKANO SHINJI has 45 points...

I think.

[kowalski]

Uh, NAKANO SHINJI has 45 points...

I think.

Many thanks!! I'll add him now...

[muttley]

Taki Inoue and Tora Takagi? Though I think they wouldn't have got any points even with the new point system...

[shinji]

Uh, NAKANO SHINJI has 45 points...

I think.

Many thanks!! I'll add him now...

That's better.

[Klon]

Inoue "has" 6 points whereas Takagi "has" 14 points.

[Barbazza]

Even better than that, Noritake Takahara and Kunimitsu Takahashi would have 2 points each!!

[thehemogoblin]

Toshio Suzuki?

[TomWazzleshaw]

If Kobayashi keeps doing what's he doing right now he'll probably end up being better than Sato, Suzuki and Nakajima. Afterall Kobyashi is far and away the best starter out of everyone on the grid right now if not one of the best starters in history (Yes that is a bold claim but his starts at Canada and Hungary back me up here)

[Instant Mash]

I firmly believe that Cowboyashi has the talent to go far. He still needs a little refinement, but once he's ready and gets into a good car... LOOK OUT!

[kowalski]

Yes, I realise there are plenty of races I have 'missed'. I wasn't attempting a complete list of drivers - just the 'best' of the bunch.

- It is suprising how many points some of these guys could have picked up under the new rules though...

Does anyone have any theories as why a Japanese driver has never made it right to the top? The nearest i suppose we have ever seen was Sato fighting for podiums in the Honda a few years back (I think he even led a race)...

So, yes, keep Sakon & Kamui plus bring back Taku for next season and I'll be happy!

[jackanderton]

Lack of opportunity in a good car? Not just good in a pace sense but reliable too. The second factor being bad luck. The third probably something to do with pressure. Let's have a full look:

Fushida? DNS and DNQ in 2 race entries. Qualified in the Maki but blew his engine.

Hasemi? Only one race entry, 11th place in the Kojima and set the fastest lap of the race at the Japanese GP in 1976. Bizarrely he finished 7 laps down. A not untypically unconventional Japanese F1 career then.

Hattori? Two DNPQ's in the Coloni, and not really worth discussing.

Hoshino? Another Japan-only race entry, retiring in 1976 because of burning through all his tyres! but finishing 11th in 1997.

Ide? Hah. 3 retirements and a 13th place finish for Super Aguri in 2006.

Inoue? 2 top ten finishes for Footwork, but twelve retirements. Sponsorship dried up, couldn't compete for race seats at Tyrell or Minardi over Katayama or Fisichella.

Katayama? He had a decent F1 career, when you consider he never got (or rather chose not to) drive with a front running team. 16 top ten finishes.

Kobayashi? Looked to be going the way of the rest early in the season. But his lowest finish in a Formula 1 race is 12th. 6 top ten finishes already. He looks like he's got the raw materials of an F1 driver. Could he win a race? That will depend whether he can earn a better drive.

Kuwashima? Heh. One practice session for Wolf Williams

K. Nakajima? 8 top ten finishes. A bright start in 2008 But a pointless 2009, didn't really look quick enough at any stage and was propped up only by the Toyota engine arrangement. Coming between 10-15th a lot doesn't do your F1 career any good.

S. Nakajima? 27 top ten finishes in 5 seasons isn't bad going. He entered F1 too late perhaps.

Nakano? Yet another Japanese driver stuck in crap cars. But 9 top 10 finishes in the Prost and Minardi. He never really had a chance but did well with what he had.

Noda? 3 spectacularly crappy retirements for Larrousse!

Sato? 23 top ten finishes in 5 seasons and a half and a race. Obviously erratic but looked good enough. Deserved a better run of luck after a very good 2004.

A. Suzuki? 17 top ten finishes. Though he got a podium with Larrousse his best year was as a midfield runner for Footwork in 1992. Hamstrung by crap cars and could have done a lot better.

T. Suzuki? Two races, two finishes! Wahey. Except they were 12th and 14th in a Larrousse. I suppose getting them to the finish line is notable.

Takagi? 4 top ten finishes. Stuck with Tyrrell and Arrows who were teams on the way out. The second half of 1999 was pretty appalling for him though.

Takahara? A top ten finish in the Surtees in 1976! Where....where else but Japan! Not so lucky the year after.

Takahashi? It's 1977. It's Japan. It's a top ten finish in a Tyrrell.

Yamamoto? 17 race starts. Yet to show any hint of anything outstanding in any of them, though he did finish 12th in Japan in 2007.



So that's your lot. Let's run through the teams involved an work out why none of them have won a Grand Prix.

90's Tyrrell.
Footwork
Arrows
Larrousse
Simtek
Super Aguri
Prost
Minardi
Williams (in both cases years they were way off the pace)

Sato comes top partly because in 2004 he drove for the competitive BAR Honda.

There isn't one example there of a Japanese driver blowing his opportunity, because there are only a few fleeting moments where a Japanese driver had the opportunity.

Kobayashi has a great chance to be the 2nd most successful Japanese driver, if not the first, as he entered with Toyota who were competitive and is now driving for Sauber who are always in with a shout of some points. Plus as we're discovering, he has something about him. A few of the guys above did too, but didn't get the opportunities through tough luck or poor choices.

Though to end on a positive note, these cast of talented misfits have achieved 104 top ten finishes between them!

[jackanderton]

Let's finish now with my top ten Japanese F1 drivers:

1. Takuma Sato
2. Saturo Nakajima
3. Ukyo Katayama
4. Aguri Suzuki
5. Shinji Nakano
6. Kamui Kobayashi (and rising! watch out shinji...)
7. Kazuki Nakajima (in time I hope he will settle in his natural position of somewhere in between 10th and 15th)
8. Tora Takagi
9. Taki Inoue
10. Sakhon Yamamoto (by virtue of still somehow being in the sport! oh, and because there are no other Japanese drivers to have entered enough races and scored more than 1 top ten finish!)

[Myrvold]

I think there is a good reason why we haven't had a top japanese F1 driver yet.
They just haven't been good enough.

[shinji]

I think there is a good reason why we haven't had a top japanese F1 driver yet.
They just haven't been good enough.

That completely and utterly, in every single possible way, goes against what F1 Rejects has stood for for the last ten years.

[TomWazzleshaw]

I think there is a good reason why we haven't had a top japanese F1 driver yet.
They just haven't been good enough.

BLASPHAMY!!!

[frongor]

In case someone is in Tokyo during a GP weekend i wholeheartedly recomend you to visit the F1 Pit Stop Cafe in Roppongi.

They show the races live, provide food and pre-race entertainment, F1 Ultra-quiz and best of all, our loved japanese F1 Rejects as guest commentators. Last year Yuji Ide came several times and ate turkish kebab. Last race i shook hand with the real-deal Shinji Nakano, and for the Beligan GP Super-Aguri Suzuki will be the guest. Very recomended!

http://www.f1pitstopcafe.co.jp/English/

http://blog.pit-fm.jp/archives/2773

http://blog.pit-fm.jp/archives/1493

[shinji]

In case someone is in Tokyo during a GP weekend i wholeheartedly recomend you to visit the F1 Pit Stop Cafe in Roppongi.

They show the races live, provide food and pre-race entertainment, F1 Ultra-quiz and best of all, our loved japanese F1 Rejects as guest commentators. Last year Yuji Ide came several times and ate turkish kebab. Last race i shook hand with the real-deal Shinji Nakano, and for the Beligan GP Super-Aguri Suzuki will be the guest. Very recomended!

http://www.f1pitstopcafe.co.jp/English/

http://blog.pit-fm.jp/archives/2773

http://blog.pit-fm.jp/archives/1493

omigodomigodomigod...

[jackanderton]

If these Japanese drivers haven't been good enough, as Myrvold claims, please cite an example where a driver has had the car to score points in every race and failed.

You have a point in that none of the above are in the class of driver to be world champion, but if they hadn't nearly all found themselves in dodgy machinery, the likes of Katayama, A. Suzuki and S. Nakajima would have been regular points scorers. I've no doubt about that. Takuma Sato proved that in 2004, and I actually don't rate him that much (although he was hugely enjoyable to watch).

Japanese drivers have traditionally failed to get a secure foothold in F1 for a number of reasons. Someone else might be helpful in fleshing this out, but I can identify two reasons for stars:

1. They enter F1 in a reject team and go unnoticed apart from when they hit people or crash or break down.
2. They're placed in by a major Japanese manufacturer and come contract-signing time they find it difficult to jostle for places with different teams who don't run their paymaster's engine

I think Sato is genuinely unlucky and should've spent the last 6 years in F1. He's better than Alguersuari, Petrov, Liuzzi, Hulkenburg, De La Rosa, not to mention Di Grassi, Senna, Chandhok.

Japanese drivers should be afforded the dignity of not being seen as the Reject nation of F1 drivers. Switzerland and Belgium have had the most F1 entrants without winning a championship. Japan is 3rd. The USA have the worst ratio of drivers to Drivers Championships out of any country. Not that that's a barometer or anything- just interesting.

[kowalski]

From Murry Walkers own mouth

Another gutsy drive by Japans best driver yet

- Our very own KK!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/murraywalker/2010/08/my_hungarian_grand_prix_review.html

In case someone is in Tokyo during a GP weekend i wholeheartedly recomend you to visit the F1 Pit Stop Cafe in Roppongi.

They show the races live, provide food and pre-race entertainment, F1 Ultra-quiz and best of all, our loved japanese F1 Rejects as guest commentators. Last year Yuji Ide came several times and ate turkish kebab. Last race i shook hand with the real-deal Shinji Nakano, and for the Beligan GP Super-Aguri Suzuki will be the guest. Very recomended!

- That looks serioously awsome!

[dr-baker]

In case someone is in Tokyo during a GP weekend i wholeheartedly recomend you to visit the F1 Pit Stop Cafe in Roppongi.

They show the races live, provide food and pre-race entertainment, F1 Ultra-quiz and best of all, our loved japanese F1 Rejects as guest commentators. Last year Yuji Ide came several times and ate turkish kebab. Last race i shook hand with the real-deal Shinji Nakano, and for the Beligan GP Super-Aguri Suzuki will be the guest. Very recomended!

- That looks serioously awsome!

I want a cafe or two like this in South-East England (South Essex or S-W London...)

[mario]

From Murry Walkers own mouth

Another gutsy drive by Japans best driver yet

- Our very own KK!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/murraywalker/2010/08/my_hungarian_grand_prix_review.html

In case someone is in Tokyo during a GP weekend i wholeheartedly recomend you to visit the F1 Pit Stop Cafe in Roppongi.

They show the races live, provide food and pre-race entertainment, F1 Ultra-quiz and best of all, our loved japanese F1 Rejects as guest commentators. Last year Yuji Ide came several times and ate turkish kebab. Last race i shook hand with the real-deal Shinji Nakano, and for the Beligan GP Super-Aguri Suzuki will be the guest. Very recomended!

- That looks serioously awsome!

Murray Walker was very complimentary towards Kobayashi, and does seem to have taken a shine to him. It isn't the first time that he has been enthusiastic about Kobayashi - if I recall correctly, he was also very positive about him in Valencia, due to his move on Alonso.

If these Japanese drivers haven't been good enough, as Myrvold claims, please cite an example where a driver has had the car to score points in every race and failed.

You have a point in that none of the above are in the class of driver to be world champion, but if they hadn't nearly all found themselves in dodgy machinery, the likes of Katayama, A. Suzuki and S. Nakajima would have been regular points scorers. I've no doubt about that. Takuma Sato proved that in 2004, and I actually don't rate him that much (although he was hugely enjoyable to watch).

Japanese drivers have traditionally failed to get a secure foothold in F1 for a number of reasons. Someone else might be helpful in fleshing this out, but I can identify two reasons for stars:

1. They enter F1 in a reject team and go unnoticed apart from when they hit people or crash or break down.
2. They're placed in by a major Japanese manufacturer and come contract-signing time they find it difficult to jostle for places with different teams who don't run their paymaster's engine

I think Sato is genuinely unlucky and should've spent the last 6 years in F1. He's better than Alguersuari, Petrov, Liuzzi, Hulkenburg, De La Rosa, not to mention Di Grassi, Senna, Chandhok.

Japanese drivers should be afforded the dignity of not being seen as the Reject nation of F1 drivers. Switzerland and Belgium have had the most F1 entrants without winning a championship. Japan is 3rd. The USA have the worst ratio of drivers to Drivers Championships out of any country. Not that that's a barometer or anything- just interesting.

You forgot the third option - they enter the sport as a test driver. Sato, for example, spend a fairly sizeable chunk of 2003 as a test driver, Kobayashi was Toyota's test driver (and had it not been for Glock's accident in Suzuka, he probably would have remained their test driver, never had a chance to show his potential, and left the sport with Toyota), as was Nakajima for Williams.
Whilst it is a toehold in F1, it is all too precarious, and even more so now that testing during the season is banned, with test sessions only at the beginning of the year. In fact, that is one of the downsides of the testing ban - Vettel, for example, would have had a lot more difficulty in getting into F1, from his prominence as a BMW Sauber test driver (when he managed to set some very eye-catching times), and poor Luca Badoer showed that being unable to drive a car for a long time makes it very hard to get on the pace when you are needed in a hurry (although, as Fisichella showed, the F60 was pretty difficult to set up and drive, thanks to the destabilising effect of the KERS unit when harvesting energy).

[Phoenix]

I've been thinking lately that test sessions during mid-season should return. It's a right of the sport, after all, and, as mario pointed out, allows young drivers to get experience and learn the craft without pressure, as well as getting a foothold onto a titular seat should they want to participate in F1 after succesful campaigns in junior categories. Without testing, they have limited oportunities, and so when they join they struggle as a result. So, yeah, I think mid-seson testing is by no means expendable.

[dr-baker]

I've been thinking lately that test sessions during mid-season should return. It's a right of the sport, after all, and, as mario pointed out, allows young drivers to get experience and learn the craft without pressure, as well as getting a foothold onto a titular seat should they want to participate in F1 after succesful campaigns in junior categories. Without testing, they have limited oportunities, and so when they join they struggle as a result. So, yeah, I think mid-seson testing is by no means expendable.

I agree. Ban all simulators, heavily restrict windtunnels and CFD and let them all hit the track, and charge a nominal fee for spectators to attend to cover the costs of commentators to explain each team's programme for the day and provide interviews with drivers etc. Oh, and let Sauber test in Switzerland, to save them having to leave the country to test.

[AndreaModa]

Now I'm not sure if this is true, but I've heard somewhere or another that testing will actually be re-established if not next year then 2012 to allow the teams to have more running because, lets face it these simulators aren't saving the teams money, and the smaller teams don't even have them, whereas all cars can test new bits. It makes perfect sense.

[Valrys]

Oh, and let Sauber test in Switzerland, to save them having to leave the country to test.

I don't think there's any circuits that can take an F1 car in Switzerland, due to circuit racing being banned and all that

[Phoenix]

Oh, and let Sauber test in Switzerland, to save them having to leave the country to test.

I don't think there's any circuits that can take an F1 car in Switzerland, due to circuit racing being banned and all that

I can't believe they still enforce this ban. It's just silly. As if Switzerland wasn't boring enough

[DemocalypseNow]

Oh, and let Sauber test in Switzerland, to save them having to leave the country to test.

I don't think there's any circuits that can take an F1 car in Switzerland, due to circuit racing being banned and all that

I can't believe they still enforce this ban. It's just silly. As if Switzerland wasn't boring enough

This explains why Jean-Denis Deletraz was that slow. He had nowhere to practise!

[Klon]

Now here's something worse. Some nationalists in Swiss have "proposed" an allowance for some regions to join the country. One of these regions is Baden-Wüttemberg, home of the Hockenheimring. So, an even bigger loss would this racing ban have if that goes through, which of course it won't.

[dr-baker]

This Wikipedia article suggests:

On June 6, 2007 an amendment to lift the ban was passed by the lower house of the Swiss parliament, 97 in favour and 77 opposed[1]. The act still has to pass the upper house, which has previously voted down similar proposals[2].

I believe that Sauber have previously occasionally been permitted to do some straight-line testing at an airport with special dispensation?

[mario]

Oh, and let Sauber test in Switzerland, to save them having to leave the country to test.

I don't think there's any circuits that can take an F1 car in Switzerland, due to circuit racing being banned and all that

I can't believe they still enforce this ban. It's just silly. As if Switzerland wasn't boring enough

Oh, they definitely enforce it, and with an alarming vigour, depending on which canton you are unlucky enough to end up in. There was the time that the motoring presenter Jeremy Clarkson was pulled over by a policeman because the stock exhaust on the Ferrari he was driving was deemed to be too loud - whilst at the same time, they didn't care that he also had a semi-automatic assault rifle slung across the back seat.

Probably the worst would be Basel (you know it is bad when the rest of Switzerland considers it to be very conservative), where a former lecturer of mine once ended up (researching seismic activity in the region for the Swiss nuclear industry). The two things that the canton of Basel seems to enjoy doing is trying to get a nuclear power plant just over the border in France shut down (which, as you can imagine, the French ignore quite happily), and being mind bendingly dull and pedantic. As he put it, the thing that you are most likely to die of in Basel is sheer boredom.

[JeanDenisAlcatraz]

I'm going to have to defend Switzerland here. I spent a week travelling around it in March and found it wonderful.

Admittedly, the best part was the Italian bit

[Debaser]

The Swiss football team are the dullest, most soporific football team known to man. They play energy-sapping defensive football that's capable of sending Red-Bull junkies to a relaxing sleep. Along with the refusal to fight wars and their hatred of cars, it doesn't make me particularly appreciative.

[Klon]

The Swiss football team are the dullest, most soporific football team known to man. They play energy-sapping defensive football that's capable of sending Red-Bull junkies to a relaxing sleep. Along with the refusal to fight wars and their hatred of cars, it doesn't make me particularly appreciative.

But Ottmar Hitzfeld is awesome, fella. And the refusal to fight war is even more awesome, so Swiss ain't that bad, I guess. Just tasteless, maybe...

[mario]

The Swiss football team are the dullest, most soporific football team known to man. They play energy-sapping defensive football that's capable of sending Red-Bull junkies to a relaxing sleep. Along with the refusal to fight wars and their hatred of cars, it doesn't make me particularly appreciative.

But Ottmar Hitzfeld is awesome, fella. And the refusal to fight war is even more awesome, so Swiss ain't that bad, I guess. Just tasteless, maybe...

The thing is, the Swiss constitution prevents a Swiss citizen from fighting outside of Swiss borders (unless it is because they are repelling an offensive into Switzerland - the armed forces are supposed to be a defensive force). However, they have still taken an active role in places like Iraq, where they have been operating as medical orderlies.

Furthermore, during times such as the Second World War, Switzerland wasn't quite as passive as you'd think - the Swizz air force and ground forces would regularly attack any aircraft, regardless of nationality, that crossed their borders, and managed to shoot down and kill a number of pilots. In addition, the Swiss government was fairly pro-German (since, at the time, most of the members of the Swiss government came from the German influenced regions of Switzerland), and allowed the SS to not only recruit Swiss nationals, but to establish a recruitment office in Geneva - so, by the end of the war, the SS had raised an entire division of Swiss nationals.

In fact, Swiss nationals have often been far more active in conflicts then you would imagine - for example, during the 19th century, the Swiss military would often provide military assistance in the form of weapons and soldiers, albeit claiming that those soldiers were free agents acting of their own accord, into Italy to help in the Italian risorgimento, because they hated the Austrians and wanted to help anybody who stood up to them.

[RAK]

The Swiss football team are the dullest, most soporific football team known to man. They play energy-sapping defensive football that's capable of sending Red-Bull junkies to a relaxing sleep. Along with the refusal to fight wars and their hatred of cars, it doesn't make me particularly appreciative.

But Ottmar Hitzfeld is awesome, fella. And the refusal to fight war is even more awesome, so Swiss ain't that bad, I guess. Just tasteless, maybe...

The thing is, the Swiss constitution prevents a Swiss citizen from fighting outside of Swiss borders (unless it is because they are repelling an offensive into Switzerland - the armed forces are supposed to be a defensive force). However, they have still taken an active role in places like Iraq, where they have been operating as medical orderlies.

Furthermore, during times such as the Second World War, Switzerland wasn't quite as passive as you'd think - the Swizz air force and ground forces would regularly attack any aircraft, regardless of nationality, that crossed their borders, and managed to shoot down and kill a number of pilots. In addition, the Swiss government was fairly pro-German (since, at the time, most of the members of the Swiss government came from the German influenced regions of Switzerland), and allowed the SS to not only recruit Swiss nationals, but to establish a recruitment office in Geneva - so, by the end of the war, the SS had raised an entire division of Swiss nationals.

In fact, Swiss nationals have often been far more active in conflicts then you would imagine - for example, during the 19th century, the Swiss military would often provide military assistance in the form of weapons and soldiers, albeit claiming that those soldiers were free agents acting of their own accord, into Italy to help in the Italian risorgimento, because they hated the Austrians and wanted to help anybody who stood up to them.

Swiss mercenaries.

Do you know why the Swiss are neutral? It's because the last time they fought, they were so good at it that the rest of Europe mandated that they shouldn't be allowed to fight wars any more. Once the modern mandatory military service is over, Swiss men are allowed to purchase their assault rifles for a nominal fee, meaning that any Swiss man you meet in his home borders may be heavily armed.

[Phoenix]

Oh, they definitely enforce it, and with an alarming vigour, depending on which canton you are unlucky enough to end up in. There was the time that the motoring presenter Jeremy Clarkson was pulled over by a policeman because the stock exhaust on the Ferrari he was driving was deemed to be too loud - whilst at the same time, they didn't care that he also had a semi-automatic assault rifle slung across the back seat.

Stupid tradition. They've been told along those 55 years that motor racing was unacceptably dangerous, yet I bet they never bothered about really thinking about it. But skiing isn't dangerous, for sure...

I'm going to have to defend Switzerland here. I spent a week travelling around it in March and found it wonderful.

Admittedly, the best part was the Italian bit

We were talking about how conservative they are. I'm sure the landscapes are beautiful, for sure

Once the modern mandatory military service is over, Swiss men are allowed to purchase their assault rifles for a nominal fee, meaning that any Swiss man you meet in his home borders may be heavily armed.

No motor racing, but any wacko can get an assault rifle. Life's strange...