Grand Prix Rejects

Lewis also should get RotR points as the Massa SC* ended up costing Button the win.

*I don't know if Massa's car was damaged, but if there was no move at Loews, unlikely Lewis would've been close enough in the tunnel.

Ben Gilbert wrote:Kamui Kobayashi

I can see the papaya canons being prepared as I type this, but consider this. What was the main factor that ruined the end of the race? The giant crash next to the swimming pool. What caused the giant crash next to the swimming pool? Adrian Sutil's puncture throwing him completely off-line, and creating a concertina behind him. What caused Sutil's puncture? Kamui Kobayashi's somewhat sideways overtake causing the Sauber's front wing to tag the rear wheel of the Farce India

Admittedly, the move looked to be a simple, and ultimately forgiveable, error, and he did put in a solid drive to take fifth (that should have been fourth), but utterly ruining a great battle towards the end of the race, albeit indirectly, deserves a mention at the very least.

I'm pretty sure Sutil's puncture was caused by crashing at Tabac, but maybe there was already a puncture.

The crash was many laps after the Kamui crash, so I don't think that caused it.

Ben Gilbert wrote:What (probably) caused Sutil's puncture? Kamui Kobayashi's somewhat sideways overtake causing the Sauber's front wing to tag the rear wheel of the Farce India.

Pretty sure Adrian lost the wheel when he ran wide after Pastor overtook him

patrick wrote:

Ben Gilbert wrote:What (probably) caused Sutil's puncture? Kamui Kobayashi's somewhat sideways overtake causing the Sauber's front wing to tag the rear wheel of the Farce India.

Pretty sure Adrian lost the wheel when he ran wide after Pastor overtook him

I admit that I may be wrong, but I think that Adrian's tyre had been punctured before that. Looking at the shot of the overtake in question, it seems as though the right-rear is looking a little flat just before the corner. And then there's the rate at which he dropped back beforehand. Sutil lost around fifteen seconds between the incident with Kobayashi and the pileup. To me, that speaks of a suspension issue (and given that he held off Heidfeld after the restart, this seems unlikely) or that he had a slow puncture at the time.

Like I said, I may be wrong, though.

The rule allowing drivers to change tyres during the red flag. It robbed the fans of an epic climax, meaning we had 2 dreadful anticlimaxes in 2 days, and mean that Hamilton was able to remain in the race and take out Maldonado. Why on Earth does that rule exist? The restart is a continuation of the previous race, so surely the cars should have to continue in the state they were in beforehand?

East Londoner wrote:This is academic. Hamilton for acting like an arse throughout the race.

This

The tyre rule is sensible, if you think about it, for example at Nurburgring 2007 - to allow people to change from slicks to wets or whatever.

The rule had good intentions, so it's unfair to blame it this time out.

Ben Gilbert wrote:Kamui Kobayashi

I can see the papaya canons being prepared as I type this, but consider this. What was the main factor that ruined the end of the race? The giant crash next to the swimming pool. What caused the giant crash next to the swimming pool? Adrian Sutil's puncture throwing him completely off-line, and creating a concertina behind him. What (probably) caused Sutil's puncture? Kamui Kobayashi's somewhat sideways overtake causing the Sauber's front wing to tag the rear wheel of the Farce India.

Admittedly, the move looked to be a simple, and ultimately forgiveable, error, and he did put in a solid drive to take fifth (that should have been fourth), but utterly ruining a great battle towards the end of the race, albeit indirectly, deserves a mention at the very least.

1. Kobayashi passed Sutil many laps before Sutil crashed.

2. Sutil's puncture was from him having absolutely zero grip on extremely old tires (he had only stopped once up to that point), going offline, getting onto the marbles, and hitting the wall at Tabac. That is why he was dropping back so fast.

3. If Kobayashi had punctured his tire, it would have been deflated long before the incident.

4. Sutil looked like he ran wide after being startled by Kobayashi in his mirrors, and Kobayashi subsequently drifted past.

First of all, I'm glad that Perez and Petrov are OK after what they went through this weekend.

And now on to the nominees:

-Mercedes: after a nice start to the race, they faded away quickly and delivered an unexpectedly weak performance as backmarkers that was reminiscent of the Brackley squad's Earth Cars. Clearly, they have deficits in mechanical grip.
Yet, there are stronger contenders.

-Unnecessary restarts:
Both Q3 and the race had a red flag situation. Both sessions were restarted for a "green - white - chequered" type of finish reminiscent of NASCAR which F1 does not need. Yet, not aborting the sessions and announcing a dummy restart helps in keeping the roads empty in Monaco for the ambulance to get through to the hospital. That would definitely not be the case if they had put out the chequered flag right away. In that case, the streets would have been jammed with spectators.
So there are stronger contenders.

-Jaime Alguersuari:
He made a strong ROTR campaign all weekend, highlighted by his low grid position behind the two Team Lotus cars and capped off by crashing into the back of Hamilton and taking out Petrov in the process, whereupon the red flag came out.

-Lewis Hamilton:
A bad strategic call in Q3 left him without a "banker lap", an off in his only qualifying attempt left him without a time in P9. He caused a collision with Massa during the race. He caused a collision with the Reverend McDonald late in the race. And his involvement in the situation at the swimming pool that led to the red flag only adds to his tally of involvements.
I'm pretty certain he will get a post-race time penalty for his collision with the Reverend McDonald that would drop him out of the points. So it looks very much like the winner is him this time around.

Ed24 wrote:The tyre rule is sensible, if you think about it, for example at Nurburgring 2007 - to allow people to change from slicks to wets or whatever.

The rule had good intentions, so it's unfair to blame it this time out.

Yes, and at the end of the day the rules are the rules. Yes it robbed the race of a grandstand finish, but the rules can't be changed simply to avoid that.

Methinks I have a rather simple decision to make this race ...

The anticlimactic finish/FIA rules regarding the restart: I felt a little bit cheated after such a potential finish. Vettel was effectively gifted that win - even though he probably still would have won on the worn set of tyres, it would have felt like he actually had to work for it.

The Austrian national anthem: At least the German national anthem sounds a bit more spirited when played by a band. The Austrian national anthem is as boring as ever. I'm getting sick of hearing both of them.

Lewis Hamilton: A scrappy, unprofessional performance which really shouldn't have gifted points.

3) Mercedes: Terrible performance, Rosberg was anonymous as ever, and from what I noticed the only action they had was trying to pass Timo Glock's Virgin, and that wasn't for position. I said it before; they are the Toyota F1 of today.

2) The FIA: The red flag is understandable. There was an ambulance on track, and it makes sense to stop the race. What doesn't make sense is allowing the cars to have their tires changed. What more, there should not have been a rolling start. Vettel's win was gifted, like it or not. Concerning Nurburgring 2007, that made sense because of the weather conditions. Here, it was sunny. I guess this is another case of the FIA needing to change the rule again. And as for repairing the car, if the car is a safety risk to the driver and others, then I don't see the problem of fixing the car. Changing the tires though (obviously if they aren't blown off) is not needed.

1) Lewis Hamilton: Driving into people, driving like a complete idiot when not barging into other drivers, and topping it off, acting like an idiot saying "Massa turned into me." And as if the drive through penalty wasn't enough, he then goes and barges into Pastor Maldonado. Really amateurish driving from Hamilton; honestly, I think he should be disqualified and if not that, given a 20 second penalty next race. That was inexcusable behavior.

Ed24 wrote:The tyre rule is sensible, if you think about it, for example at Nurburgring 2007 - to allow people to change from slicks to wets or whatever.

The rule had good intentions, so it's unfair to blame it this time out.

The rule should be the same as the rule about keeping the same tyres from qualifying to the race, you're allowed to change if there's a change in climactic conditions, but no other work should be allowed to be done on the car. Otherwise it just makes a mockery of the sport.

LionZoo wrote:

Ben Gilbert wrote:Kamui Kobayashi

I can see the papaya canons being prepared as I type this, but consider this. What was the main factor that ruined the end of the race? The giant crash next to the swimming pool. What caused the giant crash next to the swimming pool? Adrian Sutil's puncture throwing him completely off-line, and creating a concertina behind him. What (probably) caused Sutil's puncture? Kamui Kobayashi's somewhat sideways overtake causing the Sauber's front wing to tag the rear wheel of the Farce India.

Admittedly, the move looked to be a simple, and ultimately forgiveable, error, and he did put in a solid drive to take fifth (that should have been fourth), but utterly ruining a great battle towards the end of the race, albeit indirectly, deserves a mention at the very least.

1. Kobayashi passed Sutil many laps before Sutil crashed.

2. Sutil's puncture was from him having absolutely zero grip on extremely old tires (he had only stopped once up to that point), going offline, getting onto the marbles, and hitting the wall at Tabac. That is why he was dropping back so fast.

3. If Kobayashi had punctured his tire, it would have been deflated long before the incident.

4. Sutil looked like he ran wide after being startled by Kobayashi in his mirrors, and Kobayashi subsequently drifted past.

1. I understand that. However, a puncture can easily be due to a shard of the front wing being lodged in the tyre, and slowly working its way through the rubber to cause the eventual puncture.

2. He had already lost the fifteen seconds before making the impact at Tabac. And I agree, the puncture may have been accelerated and/or caused by the impact with the wall at Tabac, but it seems as though Sutil was already struggling with a problem at the rear of his car before that impact.

3. See point 1.

4. I'm not sure which overtake you're refering to here. Yes, for the incident where Sutil crashed into Tabac, it looks as though he was startled off-line by Maldonado. However, during the incident with Kobayashi, the Sauber was already out of shape under braking before the impact. Sutil ran wide because he was hit by the Sauber.

Lewis Hamilton - just because a slower driver is beating you does not give you the right to ram them off the road.

EDIT: And the frankly outrageous interview he's just given to Lee McKenzie

Hamilton, hands down.

With the consensus. Hamilton, hands down. Poor Pastor.

Another vote for someone that reared a egomaniac and paranoid head. I hope that FIA gives him a 10-place grid penalty for next race.

Hamilton for trying to excuse his shambles of a weekend by "jokingly" accusing the stewards of racism.

Bob wrote:Lewis Hamilton - just because a slower driver is beating you does not give you the right to ram them off the road.

EDIT: And the frankly outrageous interview he's just given to Lee McKenzie

In any other industry he'd run the risk of getting fired after an interview like that & in some other sports a disrepute charge would result.....

LukeB wrote:Hamilton for trying to excuse his shambles of a weekend by "jokingly" accusing the stewards of racism.

I haven't seen the video yet (to hear his tone), but these are some of the most disgraceful comments I've ever heard from an F1 driver...

Ed24 wrote:

LukeB wrote:Hamilton for trying to excuse his shambles of a weekend by "jokingly" accusing the stewards of racism.

I haven't seen the video yet (to hear his tone), but these are some of the most disgraceful comments I've ever heard from an F1 driver...

I think it's highly likely the BBC will cut it from any replay of the Forum on the iplayer, but you might get it popping up on youtube.

And I too have to go with the trend and nominate Lewis, not just for his race, but the whole interview with Lee was just silly. I thought he'd matured

patrick wrote:I thought he'd matured

So did I. Three steps back, and first really poor character boo-boo since his hooning and petulant radio messages in Australia last year.

Ed24 wrote:The tyre rule is sensible, if you think about it, for example at Nurburgring 2007 - to allow people to change from slicks to wets or whatever.

The rule had good intentions, so it's unfair to blame it this time out.

It's an easy change then. Make it so that before the restart you can only change from slicks to wets or the other way around.

I agree that rules are rules but it completely p*ssed me off.

Of course Hamilton for ramming everyone out of his way and being a pillock.

1) Lewis Hamilton, dumb crashing into Massa

2) Lewis Hamilton, dumb crashing into Maldonado

If Hamilton doesn't get ROTR, I'll be in agonizing pain by eating beef carrots.

Ben Gilbert wrote:1. I understand that. However, a puncture can easily be due to a shard of the front wing being lodged in the tyre, and slowly working its way through the rubber to cause the eventual puncture.

2. He had already lost the fifteen seconds before making the impact at Tabac. And I agree, the puncture may have been accelerated and/or caused by the impact with the wall at Tabac, but it seems as though Sutil was already struggling with a problem at the rear of his car before that impact.

3. See point 1.

4. I'm not sure which overtake you're refering to here. Yes, for the incident where Sutil crashed into Tabac, it looks as though he was startled off-line by Maldonado. However, during the incident with Kobayashi, the Sauber was already out of shape under braking before the impact. Sutil ran wide because he was hit by the Sauber.

1-3. While possible, I've never seen a slow puncture on an F1 car last more than a couple laps and usually a side cut deflates the tire instantly. A contact puncture lasting the amount of laps that Sutil's did (about 5 laps), is almost unheard of. In that case I'd rather go with Occam's Razor and speculate that Sutil was slowing because he had destroyed his tires. Incidentally, Kobayashi managed to get past Sutil at around the 30 lap mark when Sutil had obviously slowed from tire wear while Kobayashi's tires still seemed to be holding up. The timeline in this currently situation seemed to suggest a similar scenario. (Sutil got back past Kobayashi due to a slow Sauber stop.)

(ROTR is a bit of fun, so please take the following as just my pontificating on the state of the universe and not serious at all: In my personal opinion, awarding ROTR to someone for something that might possibly, though unlikely, have happened is a bit unwarranted.)

4. I'll have to watch it again. The incident where Kobayashi passed Sutil seemed to me to be a situation where Sutil was startled and got out of the way when he realized closing the door was going to take them both out. At the time, the Chinese commetators agreed with my perspective, but eyes can deceive.

Ed24 wrote:

LukeB wrote:Hamilton for trying to excuse his shambles of a weekend by "jokingly" accusing the stewards of racism.

I haven't seen the video yet (to hear his tone), but these are some of the most disgraceful comments I've ever heard from an F1 driver...

I know F1 drivers have said some rather disparaging this before, yet if he did say those, he really doesn't belong in F1.

Ferrim wrote:
It's an easy change then. Make it so that before the restart you can only change from slicks to wets or the other way around.

I agree that rules are rules but it completely p*ssed me off.

Hindsight...

It's not possible to predict every imaginable situation in the rules.

From other thread, here are Lewis' 'because I'm black?' remarks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD8T8_JR4Mw&feature=youtu.be

Hamilton.

I'm not going to attack his character or racing though, after all I supported webber last year and he has his ups and downs and unfortunate race maneuvers and press comments.
But definitely Hamilton for reject of the whole weekend.

LionZoo wrote:

Ben Gilbert wrote:1. I understand that. However, a puncture can easily be due to a shard of the front wing being lodged in the tyre, and slowly working its way through the rubber to cause the eventual puncture.

2. He had already lost the fifteen seconds before making the impact at Tabac. And I agree, the puncture may have been accelerated and/or caused by the impact with the wall at Tabac, but it seems as though Sutil was already struggling with a problem at the rear of his car before that impact.

3. See point 1.

4. I'm not sure which overtake you're refering to here. Yes, for the incident where Sutil crashed into Tabac, it looks as though he was startled off-line by Maldonado. However, during the incident with Kobayashi, the Sauber was already out of shape under braking before the impact. Sutil ran wide because he was hit by the Sauber.

1-3. While possible, I've never seen a slow puncture on an F1 car last more than a couple laps and usually a side cut deflates the tire instantly. A contact puncture lasting the amount of laps that Sutil's did (about 5 laps), is almost unheard of. In that case I'd rather go with Occam's Razor and speculate that Sutil was slowing because he had destroyed his tires. Incidentally, Kobayashi managed to get past Sutil at around the 30 lap mark when Sutil had obviously slowed from tire wear while Kobayashi's tires still seemed to be holding up. The timeline in this currently situation seemed to suggest a similar scenario. (Sutil got back past Kobayashi due to a slow Sauber stop.)

(ROTR is a bit of fun, so please take the following as just my pontificating on the state of the universe and not serious at all: In my personal opinion, awarding ROTR to someone for something that might possibly, though unlikely, have happened is a bit unwarranted.)

4. I'll have to watch it again. The incident where Kobayashi passed Sutil seemed to me to be a situation where Sutil was startled and got out of the way when he realized closing the door was going to take them both out. At the time, the Chinese commetators agreed with my perspective, but eyes can deceive.

1-3: True. It does seem unlikely for this to be the case, though I still think that Sutil's tyre looks a little deflated just before before the crash at Tabac. It is entirely possible, though, that another incident caused the puncture and we we never shown it. Or, as the tyre in question doesn't look too flat and may only be that shape due to high wear, it could be (and probably is) due to the reason you've stated. (It does seem odd though that Sutil did only start to drop back after the Kobayashi move, but may just be coincidence)

I know that ROTR is just a bit of fun, and I do agree that awarding it for a minor, remote possibility is a bit unwarranted. I just wanted to throw a bit of a curve ball, as there were so many other, far more obvious candidates that felt that this incident may be swept under the carpet, so to speak. Hence why Kamui is now only an 'honourable mention' from me.

Ed24 wrote:

Ferrim wrote:
It's an easy change then. Make it so that before the restart you can only change from slicks to wets or the other way around.

I agree that rules are rules but it completely p*ssed me off.

Hindsight...

It's not possible to predict every imaginable situation in the rules.

From other thread, here are Lewis' 'because I'm black?' remarks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD8T8_JR4Mw&feature=youtu.be

I have to agree here - a red flagged race is unusual, especially when it is so late on in the race, so it's probable that the FIA didn't think what might happen.

Anyway, I think that it is hard to look beyond Hamilton as a nominee for RotR - which is ironic, because what could have been a good recovery drive (with that pass on Schumacher) tipped over into over aggression as the race went on. Even without the post race comments (and I'll leave those to one side, most likely for another thread), he simply spent too much time banging wheels with other drivers.

I guess, though, that if we have to look at other nominees, then Alguersuari is worth mentioning. Even before crashing out, he'd had a poor start to the weekend, being outqualified by both Lotus drivers and starting just 20th (yes, Buemi started just 17th, but at least he managed to beat both Team Lotus drivers).

1. Hamilton
2. Mercedes
3. The McLaren and Red Bull pit crews
4. The bumps going into the Nouvelle Chicane

Always up for a Hamilton roasting, so ill add my vote to the chorus

I said earlier that I'd come back with three nominations... here goes.

3rd: Red Bull pit crew - for completely messing up the first pit stop for both their drivers, especially Webber, in (from what I heard in the commentary here) an attempt to stop Ferrari from listening in to their tactics.
2nd: The bumps at the tunnel exit - for causing the crashes in qualifying, mentioned earlier.
1st: Lewis Hamilton - he got higher than the bumps on this list by bumping into people in the race, ruining Massa's and Maldonado's races, which were among their best performances this year. Finished 6th (after bumping Maldonado out) because McLaren could fix his broken rear wing while the race was red-flagged.

Geri Halliwell obviously.....

Yes, the banter between Geri Halliwell and Brundle on the grid before the race was pretty rejectful.

Henrique wrote:Hamilton's interview.

Yeah. I don't give a toss about his driving, and I agree the penalties were just as effing stupid (both Lewis' and di Resta's), but I can't possibly fathom the racially-charged comments. He was stupid there.

Even if we take his joke out of the equation, (which personally I wouldn't, accusing the stewards of racism isn't something to make jokes about) Martin Brundle nailed it, Hamilton always blames someone else.

Qualifying: "Well the engineers decided to send me out on 1 run, I didn't argue with it, but you can't risk that at Monaco, it was a mistake etc." Well if you knew it was a risk at Monaco, why not say 'No guys, need to do an early run like Jenson.' would they have ignored him or something? Hardly likely. He agreed with it and then when it blew up in his face he took himself out of the equation and made into someone else's fault.

As for the race, well Monaco is hard to overtake on for a reason - it's narrow and it's slow. Massa had to turn in if he wanted to make the corner, and I'd say the same might have been the case for Maldondo unless his Williams had a time machine in it so he could go back a few seconds to brake earlier so he could safely take a wider line. When Hamilton overtook Schumacher, Schumacher only just made the corner (he actually slid the rear around on the exit to get pointed up the hill), I can understand Maldonado needing to turn in. But no, these aren't considerations when you're Lewis Hamilton - Massa turned into him to try and take him out, just like he blocked him in qualifying (where was he supposed to go on a part of the track that the racing goes from side to side rapidly).

Just because Hamilton thinks he's God's gift to F1 doesn't change the laws of physics.

I had to laugh at that Hamilton interview, I might start calling him Zippy instead of Barrichello. (I definitely will once Barrichello retires).

The annoying thing is he does make some good points about people want to see overtaking and all that, then the knives are out for him when a couple of moves fail to come off (everyone applauded him for the move on Schumacher which worked, it was very similar to the Maldonado one, the only difference was Schumacher was wise enough to co-operate, Maldonado and Massa weren't).

I certainly don't believe he intended to take anyone out, and it was nothing worse than say Alboreto on Mansell in 1988, Berger on Hill in 1993 or Irvine on Frentzen in 1998, both of which were got off scot-free (all Ferrari drivers and Williams drivers come to think of it!).

I'm worried for him now as he's probably made god-knows how many enemies in a few days, Alonso we already take as a given, but now he's mouthed off about Schumacher, Massa, the Toro Rosso drivers and also pissed off Maldonado too.