Question: Team Eligibility after change in ownership

[Yannick]

Hello Reject experts. I have a question on the eligibility of teams to the site.

We all know that teams which are sold and then compete in their next season under new ownership and control are basically not the same team as before. In those cases when they do not reach the finishing positions required, they are eligible to the site.

Jordan is not eligible because of their glory days when they were a contender for the drivers championship with Heinz-Harald Frentzen. Midland is eligible, because Alex Shnaider's team was still called Jordan when they scored their sole podium finish. Spyker is eligible, too. But since the Spyker takeover came mid-season as the title sponsor took over the team, how can Midland and Spyker be counted as different teams? Where is the dividing line?
I guess Midland and Spyker should be on the same team profile. Technically, Force 1ndia should be there, too, but they are not eligible. Kudos to them.

Now my question is a bit hypothetical, because it concerns my favourite team, Sauber, which under their guises of "PP Sauber AG" and "BMW Sauber" are not eligible. Given the ownership change criterion, they are a different entry than "BMW Sauber", who took over from "PP Sauber AG", don't you think?
My question is: Is "BMW Sauber Ferrari" eligible to the site at this point in time or does their history protect them?

The same question could also be applied to Tony Fernandes' Lotus team because they are a continuation of Lotus, yet they fulfil not only the ownership criterion but also are a completely different team. I guess they are eligible at this point then.

F1 Rejects, please specify! Thanks.

[thehemogoblin]

In my opinion, Midland/Spyker is like Onyx/Monteverdi.

As for Sauber, it's unrejectified twice over. First off, Sauber in its first guise was no longer eligible. Secondly, BMW Sauber isn't eligible either. So the current guise is safe.

[Phoenix]

My answer clearly would be that if a teams suffers a change of ownership (even if it has the same name) then it should be eligible no matter the previous achievements the team managed. So, Lotus 1Malaysia would be eligible, as well as the 1991-1994 Lotus would have been.

[AndreaModa]

Sounds like the sort of thing Andrea Sassetti was going on about during the spring of 1992, only that time it concerned a rather substantial amount of money rather than an F1 Reject's profile!

[RejectSteve]

In my opinion, Midland/Spyker is like Onyx/Monteverdi.

As for Sauber, it's unrejectified twice over. First off, Sauber in its first guise was no longer eligible. Secondly, BMW Sauber isn't eligible either. So the current guise is safe.

As AndreaModa brought it up, his namesake was effectively a continuation of Coloni yet both are profiled here.

[Waris]

In my opinion, Midland/Spyker is like Onyx/Monteverdi.

As for Sauber, it's unrejectified twice over. First off, Sauber in its first guise was no longer eligible. Secondly, BMW Sauber isn't eligible either. So the current guise is safe.

As AndreaModa brought it up, his namesake was effectively a continuation of Coloni yet both are profiled here.

I guess that is because they were counted as two different teams, just like Brawn were considered a different team from Honda, but Mercedes are considered the same team as Brawn.

Whether BAR was considered the same team as Tyrrell, we will never know, because in 1998 they finished 11th in the constructor's championship, which would've given them the numbers 22 and 23 that BAR had in 1999 anyway.

[mario]

In my opinion, Midland/Spyker is like Onyx/Monteverdi.

As for Sauber, it's unrejectified twice over. First off, Sauber in its first guise was no longer eligible. Secondly, BMW Sauber isn't eligible either. So the current guise is safe.

As AndreaModa brought it up, his namesake was effectively a continuation of Coloni yet both are profiled here.

I guess that is because they were counted as two different teams, just like Brawn were considered a different team from Honda, but Mercedes are considered the same team as Brawn.

Whether BAR was considered the same team as Tyrrell, we will never know, because in 1998 they finished 11th in the constructor's championship, which would've given them the numbers 22 and 23 that BAR had in 1999 anyway.

I guess that it would depend on whether the team could be classed as a 'going concern' - if yes, then you would probably have to class BAR as a continuation of Tyrrell, comparable to the Mercedes GP team (where Mercedes bought a controlling stake in the team - the team was still a going concern, but with a new majority shareholder). If no, you could say that BAR was a separate team from Tyrrell.

Equally, what about Honda's role in taking over BAR? Firstly that was an engine deal, followed by a share purchase to form BAR-Honda, before BAR was dropped and we ended up with just Honda. At the very least, I would be interested to find out how that was arranged (since it might also go some way to explaining why the team was so mismanaged in 2007 and 2008).

[Klon]

To be honest, for me, if I were to choose, I'd say, if a team changes its name significantly it's a new fight for anti-rejectdom. But name remains name, regardless of ownership
Example: Spyker/Midland are both reject teams , despite Jordan's (and Force India's) success. In the reverse case, neither Lotus nor BMW Sauber are reject teams despite both of them being different in ownership

[DemocalypseNow]

You're wrong about Lotus.

The 2010 edition would be classified seperately.

While the very-successful-into-steady-decline-to-back-of-the-grid Lotus was named Team Lotus, the current incarnation is Lotus Racing. Not only that, but they Malaysian government officially recognizes the team as being called 1Malaysia F1 Team.

If this effort never escapes rejectdom, they can have a profile.

[tristan1117]

The Mastercard Lola team is eligible and there were many Lola teams before the infamous diasaster. I think they are separate from Grahm Hill's Embassy-Hill Lola (eligible) and Haas Lola, of Patrick Tambay and Alan Jones fame.

[DemocalypseNow]

The Mastercard Lola team is eligible and there were many Lola teams before the infamous diasaster. I think they are separate from Grahm Hill's Embassy-Hill Lola (eligible) and Haas Lola, of Patrick Tambay and Alan Jones fame.

Yes, the latter two were merely customer cars (akin to the HRT-Dallara agreement this year), whereas Mastercard-Lola was all in-house, therefore a full works team.

Whoda thunk it? A works team worse than every customer team of the same marque.
Honda nearly did it in 2007, but apart from that I can't think of any.

[dr-baker]

The Mastercard Lola team is eligible and there were many Lola teams before the infamous diasaster. I think they are separate from Grahm Hill's Embassy-Hill Lola (eligible) and Haas Lola, of Patrick Tambay and Alan Jones fame.

Yes, the latter two were merely customer cars (akin to the HRT-Dallara agreement this year), whereas Mastercard-Lola was all in-house, therefore a full works team.

Whoda thunk it? A works team worse than every customer team of the same marque.
Honda nearly did it in 2007, but apart from that I can't think of any.

Toro Rosso beating Red Bull a few years ago...?

[DemocalypseNow]

The Mastercard Lola team is eligible and there were many Lola teams before the infamous diasaster. I think they are separate from Grahm Hill's Embassy-Hill Lola (eligible) and Haas Lola, of Patrick Tambay and Alan Jones fame.

Yes, the latter two were merely customer cars (akin to the HRT-Dallara agreement this year), whereas Mastercard-Lola was all in-house, therefore a full works team.

Whoda thunk it? A works team worse than every customer team of the same marque.
Honda nearly did it in 2007, but apart from that I can't think of any.

Toro Rosso beating Red Bull a few years ago...?

Duh...why didn't I think of that?

[FullMetalJack]

Toro Rosso beating Red Bull a few years ago...?

Duh...why didn't I think of that?

Because your drunk?

[tommykl]

Just my view, I think that two teams should be considered the same if one actually bought a controlling stake in the other (using the same factory, for example), and considered different if one only bought the team's entry (Tyrrell/BAR), and not the other team itself.

[Ferrim]

My answer clearly would be that if a teams suffers a change of ownership (even if it has the same name) then it should be eligible no matter the previous achievements the team managed. So, Lotus 1Malaysia would be eligible, as well as the 1991-1994 Lotus would have been.

1991-1994 Lotus are not eligible by any means. Even if we accept just changing ownership as enough criteria for it, Lotus scored 3 points in '91, 13 in '92 and 12 in '93.

I believe there can't be an universal approach to this, it has to be studied on a case by case basis. Sauber is run from the same factory in the same city by the same guy who did it prior to 2006, I can't see how it might be considered a different team. Lotus is run from a different factory in a different place (even if they are both in Norfolk) and by different guys, and they didn't compete for 15 whole seasons between them. So Lotus (in their current incarnation) are fully eligible, in my view at least.

But of course there are borderline cases. Is Renault the same team as Toleman once was? Of course, neither Renault nor Benetton nor Toleman are eligible, but if any of their incarnations were, this would be a hard one. They have stayed at the same place for nearly 30 years (I believe they built their current factory back in the Benetton days, but it was pretty close to the old one) and until last year they even had a guy in the team who had worked there in the Toleman days (namely Pat Symonds). Honestly I can't see them as different teams, but it's debatable.