the greatest driver never to have competed in F1?

jpm · Post by **jpm** » 30 Dec 2010, 13:57

I'm gonna go for Tom Kristensen or Dario Franchitti at this stage.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 30 Dec 2010, 14:22

Sébastien Loeb?

jpm · Post by **jpm** » 30 Dec 2010, 14:25

I was thinking of Loeb, but I guess it may have been a bit controversial (as some people on this forum seem to love the Alguersuarus) - whom Seb would have replaced if he had got his superlicense for Abu Dhabi 2009. Still, he is epic on tarmac in the WRC. Would have loved to see Petter Solberg in F1, the only showman who even comes close to Montoya.

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 30 Dec 2010, 14:34

I agree with the three you listed.

I think the word 'greatest' is limiting the number of drivers that could possibly be named here. If it were just 'people who deserved to be in F1', I'd say Bruno Junqueira, Gil de Ferran, Andy Priaulx and Neel Jani.

jpm · Post by **jpm** » 30 Dec 2010, 14:38

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:I agree with the three you listed.

I think the word 'greatest' is limiting the number of drivers that could possibly be named here. If it were just 'people who deserved to be in F1', I'd say Bruno Junqueira, Gil de Ferran, Andy Priaulx and Neel Jani.

Again I would agree, although I'm not so sure about Andy Prialux...yes he won 3 consecutive WTCC titles but didnt achieve a great deal in F3. Junqui was great, he could have done great things instead of Button in that Williams in 2000, and who knows where Button would have ended up? De Ferran was a true CART great (may I add Kenny Brack and Paul Tracy) but not only Neel Jani from a1 GP; Adam Carroll was truly INCREDIBLE in that series and has now drifted into oblivion sadly; last I heard he was racing in Indycar at Sears Point last summer?

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 30 Dec 2010, 14:44

jpm wrote:
Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:I agree with the three you listed.

I think the word 'greatest' is limiting the number of drivers that could possibly be named here. If it were just 'people who deserved to be in F1', I'd say Bruno Junqueira, Gil de Ferran, Andy Priaulx and Neel Jani.

Again I would agree, although I'm not so sure about Andy Prialux...yes he won 3 consecutive WTCC titles but didnt achieve a great deal in F3. Junqui was great, he could have done great things instead of Button in that Williams in 2000, and who knows where Button would have ended up? De Ferran was a true CART great (may I add Kenny Brack and Paul Tracy) but not only Neel Jani from a1 GP; Adam Carroll was truly INCREDIBLE in that series and has now drifted into oblivion sadly; last I heard he was racing in Indycar at Sears Point last summer?

Yes, how stupid of me to forget Carroll! I also want to say Nicolas Lapierre. He was fantastic in the first season of A1 (he gave me his cap at the Lausitzring autograph/photo session!), and even though he wasn't that impressive in GP2, do remember Kobayashi wasn't either.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 30 Dec 2010, 14:46

wladimir chagin

jpm · Post by **jpm** » 30 Dec 2010, 15:14

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:
jpm wrote:
Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:I agree with the three you listed.

I think the word 'greatest' is limiting the number of drivers that could possibly be named here. If it were just 'people who deserved to be in F1', I'd say Bruno Junqueira, Gil de Ferran, Andy Priaulx and Neel Jani.

Again I would agree, although I'm not so sure about Andy Prialux...yes he won 3 consecutive WTCC titles but didnt achieve a great deal in F3. Junqui was great, he could have done great things instead of Button in that Williams in 2000, and who knows where Button would have ended up? De Ferran was a true CART great (may I add Kenny Brack and Paul Tracy) but not only Neel Jani from a1 GP; Adam Carroll was truly INCREDIBLE in that series and has now drifted into oblivion sadly; last I heard he was racing in Indycar at Sears Point last summer?

Yes, how stupid of me to forget Carroll! I also want to say Nicolas Lapierre. He was fantastic in the first season of A1 (he gave me his cap at the Lausitzring autograph/photo session!), and even though he wasn't that impressive in GP2, do remember Kobayashi wasn't either.

Not so sure about Lappiere...granted he's the hottest property in sportscars right now but he did have a lot of silly incidents in GP2. One that I remember particularly well was him spinning out of the lead in Magny -cours in 2007 all on his own out front.

http://www.darcyf1.com/download.php?z=2471

and check out another daft one here

http://www.darcyf1.com/download.php?z=2467

Granted, if you trawl through all the GP2 vids on DarcyF1 you will find Karun Chandhok spinning off or crashing into someone in every other one!!!

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 30 Dec 2010, 15:16

Peter Brock, Klaus Ludwig, Klaus Niedzwiedz.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 30 Dec 2010, 15:17

Loic Duval?
Kesjár Csaba? (Yes, I had to mention a Hungarian)
Augusto Farfus?
The late Greg Moore?

jpm · Post by **jpm** » 30 Dec 2010, 15:18

Shizuka wrote:Loic Duval?
Kesjár Csaba? (Yes, I had to mention a Hungarian)
Augusto Farfus?
The late Greg Moore?

Yeah Loic Duval...why oh why did he end up in Japan?

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 30 Dec 2010, 16:26

Eeeerm...Michelle Mouton?

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 30 Dec 2010, 16:29

Carlos Sainz?
Jutta Kleinschmidt?

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 30 Dec 2010, 16:31

Kenny Brack left an Arrows test-drive and went to the US, a smart move. I also do think that Petter Solberg would've done quite well. He had a surprisingly good pace when he testet the Oreca LMP1 (The drive that Bruno Senna got when Petter said no). And he also got the grips with the Ferrari-car a norwegian guy bought, pretty good.
Uhm, with quite well,- i mean better than Yamamoto, not a WDC-speed

I really wonder what's up with the swedes in recent times... Kenny Brack dropped out of his Arrows deal, and Bjorn Wirdheim said no to Jordan (and Jaguar I think) because he felt he deserved a winning team...

While we are at rally drivers, what about Gilles Panizzi, he was blinding fast in asphalt rallies.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 30 Dec 2010, 18:45

The most idiotic name on the face of the earth:

Will Power

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 30 Dec 2010, 18:51

How about Will Power and Scott Speed in Lion F1?

Post by **tommykl** » 30 Dec 2010, 18:53

Myrvold wrote:How about Will Power and Scott Speed in Lion F1?

Let the pun games begin!

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 30 Dec 2010, 19:00

It would have to be someone from the CART or equivalent series - I'd go for either Al Unser Jr or Gil de Ferran.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 30 Dec 2010, 19:42

How about any of the great pre-war drivers? Tazio Nuvolari, Bernd Rosemeyer, Ferenc Szisz, Dick Seaman? They were all GP winners, yet it was not yet F1.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 30 Dec 2010, 19:48

Personally, I'd say the best never to compete in F1 would be AJ Foyt, Jeff Gordon, or Tommi Makinen.

Post by **tommykl** » 30 Dec 2010, 19:50

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Personally, I'd say the best never to compete in F1 would be AJ Foyt, Jeff Gordon, or Tommi Makinen.

Wrong. Foyt took part in an Indy 500 while it was stilll part of the Championship. This not only makes Foyt an F1 driver, but also an F1 Reject!

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 30 Dec 2010, 20:12

Wasn't Anthony Reid pretty good in single seaters before he went down the tin-top route? I guess he would've been pretty good. Maybe Alain Menu too.

watka · Post by **watka** » 30 Dec 2010, 20:49

I'd say Tom Kristensen for sure. Dario Franchitti maybe? Jason Watt and Gonzalo Rodriguez were both very promising before their accidents.

Post by **tommykl** » 30 Dec 2010, 21:12

I'd say maybe Gerry Birrell. He was touted as a replacement for Stewart when he left Tyrrell, but suffered the same horrible death as Cevert in an F2 race before he could fulfill his destiny.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 30 Dec 2010, 21:51

Oh, slightly OT, but it looks like we'll might see how Petter can do in a asphalt-race now. He is looking for a WTCC drive!

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 30 Dec 2010, 22:21

Either David Pearson, Dale Earnhardt Sr., Al Unser, Jr., Jeff Gordon, or Rick Mears. I would say Sebastien Loeb as well if he did more circuit racing and proved successful at it.

A.J. Foyt is an F1 Reject, amazingly!

Other great drivers to have never competed in F1 include Rusty Wallace, Peter Brock, Al Unser Sr., Richard Petty, Robby Gordon, Helio Castroneves, Cale Yarborough, Tim Richmond, Paul Tracy, Klaus Ludwig, Allan Moffat, Gil de Ferran, and A.J. Allmendinger.

Myrvold wrote:I really wonder what's up with the swedes in recent times... Kenny Brack dropped out of his Arrows deal, and Bjorn Wirdheim said no to Jordan (and Jaguar I think) because he felt he deserved a winning team...

Wirdheim was TERRIBLE in Champ Car -- and that was at a time when Champ Car had TERRIBLE drivers in half of the cars!

DOSBoot · Post by **DOSBoot** » 30 Dec 2010, 22:49

jpm wrote:I was thinking of Loeb, but I guess it may have been a bit controversial (as some people on this forum seem to love the Alguersuarus) - whom Seb would have replaced if he had got his superlicense for Abu Dhabi 2009. Still, he is epic on tarmac in the WRC. Would have loved to see Petter Solberg in F1, the only showman who even comes close to Montoya.

Loeb, definetaly. Solberg, not so much. He's a great rally car driver, and should have won more championships. But, circuit racing doesn't really appear to be his thing.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 31 Dec 2010, 00:47

Cynon wrote:Either David Pearson, Dale Earnhardt Sr., Al Unser, Jr., Jeff Gordon, or Rick Mears. I would say Sebastien Loeb as well if he did more circuit racing and proved successful at it.

A.J. Foyt is an F1 Reject, amazingly!

Other great drivers to have never competed in F1 include Rusty Wallace, Peter Brock, Al Unser Sr., Richard Petty, Robby Gordon, Helio Castroneves, Cale Yarborough, Tim Richmond, Paul Tracy, Klaus Ludwig, Allan Moffat, Gil de Ferran, and A.J. Allmendinger.

Myrvold wrote:I really wonder what's up with the swedes in recent times... Kenny Brack dropped out of his Arrows deal, and Bjorn Wirdheim said no to Jordan (and Jaguar I think) because he felt he deserved a winning team...

Wirdheim was TERRIBLE in Champ Car -- and that was at a time when Champ Car had TERRIBLE drivers in half of the cars!

A bit to many oval-kings, eh?

Oh, if there is one thing I will not argue with you about, it is ChampCar stuff

if Wirdheim was terrible, then I belive you!

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 31 Dec 2010, 03:37

To sum the thread up: The greatest drivers never to compete in F1?
1. Rally Stars
2. American Open Wheel Legends
3. Sportscar Stars

Honorable Mentions: NASCAR stars, touring car legends, A1GP has beens.

Some people think Valentino Rossi.

I'm giving it to Loeb.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 31 Dec 2010, 03:56

Wirdheim got whooped by Timo Glock for Champ Car rookie of the year and didn't even last the whole season in that car. Partially due to other pay drivers, but he wasn't fast. Timo Glock -- top flite driver, right? Also, I believe he also got beaten by Andrew Ranger, who was midfield but had tons of potential (as his NASCAR Canadian Tire results indicate), but arguably, way too young.

A bit too many oval kings, you say? Well, what kind of racing is most prevalent in America and where do you think you'd find the best drivers? If I'm going to ask you where to find the best drivers in Britain (using that as an example), you naturally will look at the most prestigious forms of motorsport in Britain and give me names such as Clark, Stewart, Hill, Mansell (although ironically he became an oval king in CART and on the road courses in CART he got religiously beaten), etcetera.

So naturally, I'm going to pick out the best drivers I know never participated in a Formula 1 race that haven't been said in this thread yet repeatedly, and being the local NASCAR aficionado, that's where I'm going to look first. I'm not familiar with domestic racing in other countries or with sportscars (GrandAM sucks and ALMS just never caught my interest... or even the regular Le Mans series...), and I haven't seen enough V8 Supercar races to accurately judge the field in that series.

Oval kings can hack it in Formula 1, just ask Mario Andretti, who would drive in F1, USAC, and on dirt ovals at the same time -- and win on them all, no less!

Rick Mears was actually going to go to F1 -- with Brabham, no less -- but they asked him to bring sponsorship, to which Mears objected. Rick Mears became known as an oval king after his massive smash in Sanair in 1985 that would have ended anyone else's career, but in reality, before that smash he was basically king of everything.

David Pearson is the best NASCAR driver period, hence his nomination, but since he didn't become a garage personality, he's generally ranked behind his old sparring partner Richard Petty, and Dale Earnhardt (who famously paid respect to Ayrton Senna's family, friends, and fans after winning at Talladega). I think you'd needed to make a wider car for Earnhardt, who was rather stocky and tough, but in all seriousness, I think F1 would have thought he was insane because he'd probably rattle too many cages. :lol:

I should also add Marcos Ambrose to my list of drivers who never got to F1 but would have been awesome to see in F1, if only because of how he's learned to adapt to NASCAR and learned how to be quick at the front of the field and how to pick up a backmarker team by its bootstraps and get on with the job.

I'd have said Valentino Rossi as well, but I didn't really think drivers included MotoGP.

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 31 Dec 2010, 04:53

From the V8s (because I can):

Brock, Moffat and Ambrose have been mentioned, but I'd add Dick Johnson and Larry Perkins (oops, no... never mind that one) Whincup and Lowndes maybe, and Courtney had he not stacked his Jag. He never actually competed!

As a bonus, Mark Skaife as a track designer. Homebush is boring enough to match Bahrain/Yas Marina/Valencia/Singapore etc.

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 31 Dec 2010, 04:57

But IIRC, Lowndes tried F3000 in 1997, and scored only 2 or 3 points while his teammate JPM challenged Zonta for the WC. More importantly, you don't let Patrick Lemarié outscore you!

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 31 Dec 2010, 05:02

Cynon wrote:I'm not familiar with domestic racing in other countries or with sportscars (GrandAM sucks and ALMS just never caught my interest... or even the regular Le Mans series...), and I haven't seen enough V8 Supercar races to accurately judge the field in that series.

Wat, you don't like Grand Am or ALMS? Daytona Prototypes are the NASCAR of road racing! Complete with door banging and fights! (I have included videos so the europeans can partake in the joy of Grand AM).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCWgiMzjbx8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSC0ch6pi8Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia1TSwLGwBk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L67J64yr8X8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SQhu65t1yo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DD2xTQdwYo

Here's a little ALMS action for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXLGMZDKBv8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjWo8VdMb8I&feature=related An excellent example of Ferrari and Jamie Melos scumbaggery. Jorg won the race straight up and Jamie has to bump him to take it back.

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 31 Dec 2010, 05:17

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:But IIRC, Lowndes tried F3000 in 1997, and scored only 2 or 3 points while his teammate JPM challenged Zonta for the WC. More importantly, you don't let Patrick Lemarié outscore you!

Well, I based it on the Lowndes that was actually good. You know, the one who got the ATCC championship on his first full go, then went off to Europe (where he did bugger all, I admit that). The he returned to the ATCC for '98, won that too, plus the '99 V8 Supercar championship, then got to watch as the SBRs/the HSVs/Whincup drove past for the next few years. Except at Bathurst...

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 31 Dec 2010, 05:20

the Masked Lapwing wrote:
Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:But IIRC, Lowndes tried F3000 in 1997, and scored only 2 or 3 points while his teammate JPM challenged Zonta for the WC. More importantly, you don't let Patrick Lemarié outscore you!

Well, I based it on the Lowndes that was actually good. You know, the one who got the ATCC championship on his first full go, then went off to Europe (where he did bugger all, I admit that). The he returned to the ATCC for '98, won that too, plus the '99 V8 Supercar championship, then got to watch as the SBRs/the HSVs/Whincup drove past for the next few years. Except at Bathurst...

Yes, I don't deny Lowndes is a good driver. He is, but he's not really suited to open-wheelers.

EDIT: I just happened to be watching the 1997 Australian GP on the net, and at the beginning they had an interview with him about his upcoming F3000 season. He was so full of excitement. Poor lad.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 31 Dec 2010, 05:23

How would you classify a V8 Supercar? They're certainly not GTs or Prototypes, and touring car doesn't sound right for something of its caliber of awesomeness. Bathurst has to be one of the top 10 greatest races on earth.

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 31 Dec 2010, 05:30

F1000X wrote:How would you classify a V8 Supercar? They're certainly not GTs or Prototypes, and touring car doesn't sound right for something of its caliber of awesomeness. Bathurst has to be one of the top 10 greatest races on earth.

It's definitely a touring car category. It'd be better if the Holdens and Fords were actually different...

jpm · Post by **jpm** » 31 Dec 2010, 10:38

PAUL TRACY!!! You just gotta love some of his antics; here he is at Denver in 2006 attacking Bourdais on the last corner of the race for second (Allmendinger had won)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUZCouSpU2g

Marco · Post by **Marco** » 31 Dec 2010, 12:18

Walter Röhrl.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 31 Dec 2010, 12:56

I would go with Henri Toivonen, despite him having tested for March, he didn't actually raced.