Lotus vs. Lotus

Vepe · Post by **Vepe** » 27 May 2011, 13:20

The dispute is in court today, what do you guess, will Team Lotus get to keep its name or not?

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 27 May 2011, 13:21

Will Buxton on Twitter wrote:Group Lotus says it has won naming row. But Team Lotus will be able to remain Team Lotus. Group announces it will appeal this.

EDIT:

Tony Fernandes on Twitter wrote:We won. I'm over the moon. Team lotus belongs to us. Our chasis name stays lotus. No one can use the chasis name. We are the only lotus. Team lotus

Urgh. Can this saga just go away now? :roll:

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 27 May 2011, 13:23

Vepe wrote:The dispute is in court today, what do you guess, will Team Lotus get to keep its name or not?

It's very hard to say; we cannot know what the trial Judge's view is of the Hunt/Fernandes deal.
I hope they do keep the name. Instinctively I feel that to be the right decision.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 27 May 2011, 13:27

Wizzie wrote:
Will Buxton on Twitter wrote:Group Lotus says it has won naming row. But Team Lotus will be able to remain Team Lotus. Group announces it will appeal this.

EDIT:

Tony Fernandes on Twitter wrote:We won. I'm over the moon. Team lotus belongs to us. Our chasis name stays lotus. No one can use the chasis name. We are the only lotus. Team lotus

Urgh. Can this saga just go away now?

Buxton also tweeted that (Group) Lotus still has the right to use the name & Lotus Renault will still be Lotus Renault

Are we any bathplugging further forward? :evil:

Post by **mario** » 27 May 2011, 14:13

So, it looks like everything is clear as mud - we have a judgement that both sides are claiming is a victory, but in reality is likely to become a mess. The summary of the case is being reported here by Racecar Engineering http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... g-dispute/

Basically, what it seems to boil down to is this

Group Lotus has the right to use the name “Lotus” on its own within Formula 1
Group Lotus entitled to race in the historic black and gold livery
1Malaysia Racing Team (1MRT) ruled to be in breach of licence agreement, Group Lotus awarded damages
Team Lotus Ventures Limited trademarks revoked for non-use
Group Lotus trade marks unaffected
Group Lotus has the right to use the Lotus marque on cars for road use

However

The Judge also found that Team Lotus has the right to continue to race in Formula 1 under the name Team Lotus but the effect of the Judgment is that only Group Lotus can use the name “Lotus” on its own in F1.

So, in other words, as things stand, Team Lotus seems to be able to continue to use the name of Team Lotus provided it uses that specific phrase.

Unsurprisingly, this is not going to go away; Proton Holding Bhd and Group Lotus Plc are planning to request to appeal against the decision to allow Fernandes to continue using the Team Lotus name (which they delicately describe as "clarifying the use of the Lotus brand"). So, expect more of the same for the next few months, and maybe years, if Proton insist on having the exclusive rights to the Lotus mark.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 27 May 2011, 14:18

Autosport :-

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91773

F1 Fanatic :-

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/05/27/c ... +1+Blog%29

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 27 May 2011, 14:37

At the moment only one thing is sure: Lotus won the case. Which one of the two actually did, no one knows...

The full verdict seems to be online: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2011/1366.html

It's pretty long, but not as long as I feared.

EDIT: oh God! If only the Spanish verdicts were as easy to read as this one! Spanish judges tend to write extremely long sentences, with lots of subordinates, and tons of times they don't even make grammatical sense. It speaks volumes that I actually find easier to understand an English judgment than a Spanish one.

Vepe · Post by **Vepe** » 27 May 2011, 14:50

So if I get this right, Team Lotus will remain Team Lotus, but they must use Team Lotus-name, so for example they can´t be renamed as Caterham Lotus, but instead as Caterham Team Lotus...

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 27 May 2011, 14:53

mario wrote:
The Judge also found that Team Lotus has the right to continue to race in Formula 1 under the name Team Lotus but the effect of the Judgment is that only Group Lotus can use the name “Lotus” on its own in F1.

Wow, I actually predicted the outcome of this case completely correct. If I were not convinced to become a translator, I could consider studying law.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 27 May 2011, 14:54

"It is not disputed by the Defendants in reality that they accept at the best on their case that there might be 2 teams racing in F1 under a name which includes the words "Lotus". They claim to be entitled to race under the name Team Lotus and to use the Lotus Roundel with the words "Team Lotus" incorporated in it."

This means that the Fernandes' side never tried to block Group Lotus from using the Lotus name in F1.

Before 2011 it is important to appreciate that GL never raced in F1 directly in its own right. At best it can say that it raced through TLL and TLIL from 1960 to 1994 and through 1MRT (it's Licensee) in 2010. There has never been a car racing in F1 under the name Group Lotus or just Lotus.

And this should mean that Group Lotus can't claim Team Lotus' history as theirs. But I've just read 9 pages of a 100+ verdict so let's see what comes next :mrgreen:

EDIT: it seems that, effectively, Group Lotus can enter F1 as Lotus, and as Something Lotus or Lotus Something or whatever word they want to combine with Lotus, except "Team" and its translations. So Lotus Renault for the Enstone-based team is okay, and Team Lotus for the Norfolk-based one is okay as well. And the best part is that it's actually well reasoned by the judge, based on the available evidence. :lol:

I'm going to have a rest and do other stuff now, 27 pages is more than enough for now.

BabyG · Post by **BabyG** » 27 May 2011, 16:06

I think that this has been a fair outcome. About as confusing as watching Inception, but nevertheless satisfactory.

One of the main points that has been talked about for the duration of the Lotus vs Lotus debate has been the confusion for fans, particularly casual fans. But on the grid we have 4 cars plastered with Red Bull logos and only one Team Red Bull. Is this not just as confusing to casual fans? I still can't differentiate between STR and Red Bull mechanics and I'm an avid fan!

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 27 May 2011, 16:23

BabyG wrote:I think that this has been a fair outcome. About as confusing as watching Inception, but nevertheless satisfactory.

One of the main points that has been talked about for the duration of the Lotus vs Lotus debate has been the confusion for fans, particularly casual fans. But on the grid we have 4 cars plastered with Red Bull logos and only one Team Red Bull. Is this not just as confusing to casual fans? I still can't differentiate between STR and Red Bull mechanics and I'm an avid fan!

It can sometimes be difficult to differentiate between the two "RB" teams. Lotus & Renault are two slightly more distinct entities.

F1 is all about the bull these days...

Vepe · Post by **Vepe** » 27 May 2011, 16:26

BabyG wrote:One of the main points that has been talked about for the duration of the Lotus vs Lotus debate has been the confusion for fans, particularly casual fans. But on the grid we have 4 cars plastered with Red Bull logos and only one Team Red Bull. Is this not just as confusing to casual fans? I still can't differentiate between STR and Red Bull mechanics and I'm an avid fan!

The Red Bull-Toro Rosso thingy is different to the Lotus-Lotus thingy, because...
a) Red Bull and Toro Rosso might cause confusion because of the same sponsors and same color,
and b) Lotus Renault and Lotus-Renault cause confusion because of their names or so...

And for the outcome, I think that it´s lead to nowhere as there´s still 4 Lotuses on the grid, so one has to change its name.

I think that Fernandes has the right to name his team Team Lotus, because they had bought the rights to the name from David Hunt, who had bought them in 1994 when the original Team Lotus went bankrupt.

Post by **mario** » 27 May 2011, 16:48

eagleash wrote:
BabyG wrote:I think that this has been a fair outcome. About as confusing as watching Inception, but nevertheless satisfactory.

One of the main points that has been talked about for the duration of the Lotus vs Lotus debate has been the confusion for fans, particularly casual fans. But on the grid we have 4 cars plastered with Red Bull logos and only one Team Red Bull. Is this not just as confusing to casual fans? I still can't differentiate between STR and Red Bull mechanics and I'm an avid fan!

It can sometimes be difficult to differentiate between the two "RB" teams. Lotus & Renault are two slightly more distinct entities.

F1 is all about the bull these days...

I wouldn't say that was necessarily a great comparison, because both Toro Rosso and Red Bull Racing were interlinked, with Red Bull Racing the parent team and Toro Rosso a customer team, receiving technical assistance in return for training drivers on Red Bull Racing's driver program.
For quite some time, RBR and Toro Rosso were effectively one organisation, and even though regulation changes and the news that Toro Rosso has sold some of its shares to an Abu Dhabi investment fund have reduced that influence, the two still have strong technical links (Red Bull Technology, for example, still designs the Toro Rosso and Red Bull cars, albeit with different design teams on each car). So, in effect, both organisations ultimately exist to serve the same role: the promotion of the Red Bull brand name, and generating income for the parent drinks company.

By comparison, the goals that Team Lotus and Group Lotus have are quite different, and ultimately conflicting. Group Lotus, under Bahar's management, wishes to use Formula 1 to promote and publicise their intended move into the supercar market; Fernandes, by comparison, is rumoured to be more interested in the low to medium priced sports car market, targeting a less wealthy but much larger demographic than Bahar.
Ultimately, their plans for the Lotus mark were conflicting, since Fernandes wished to use it for one purpose, and Bahar another, which is why resolution is difficult to find (and the judge himself said that it would have been better for all parties if this case had been settled amicably outside of court). Moreover, unlike Toro Rosso and RBR, Team Lotus and Group Lotus have their own competing claims to historical heritage and associated goodwill; Toro Rosso is designed to accumulate goodwill for their parent company, not claim it for their own organisation.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 27 May 2011, 17:12

Yes Lotus & Renault are rather easier to separate in the mind than the two RB teams. Not least because the liveries are not so similar. But BabyG's original point was that the latter are equally confusing to casual or non-committed observers. We all know the different circs. surrounding the two sets of teams (which casual fans may not) but even experienced commentators have been known to confuse STR & RB on occasion.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 27 May 2011, 17:36

Next thing you know, Fernandes will try to take Group Lotus Renault's current points as well. To be fair, 46 points would probably guarantee you at least 7th in the standings. I can't see Toro Rosso or Force India quite reaching that tally. Williams definitely won't this season.

Post by **mario** » 27 May 2011, 18:55

eagleash wrote:Yes Lotus & Renault are rather easier to separate in the mind than the two RB teams. Not least because the liveries are not so similar. But BabyG's original point was that the latter are equally confusing to casual or non-committed observers. We all know the different circs. surrounding the two sets of teams (which casual fans may not) but even experienced commentators have been known to confuse STR & RB on occasion.

True, although what is equally important is the fact that confusing a Toro Rosso car for an RB7 does little more than embarrass the commentator. This dispute, on the other hand, embarrasses the sport as a whole, since confusing one outfit for the other had much larger repercussions...

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 27 May 2011, 19:13

So the great, long-awaited Lotus verdict is... everything shall remain exactly the same as it was before.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 27 May 2011, 21:13

mario wrote:
eagleash wrote:Yes Lotus & Renault are rather easier to separate in the mind than the two RB teams. Not least because the liveries are not so similar. But BabyG's original point was that the latter are equally confusing to casual or non-committed observers. We all know the different circs. surrounding the two sets of teams (which casual fans may not) but even experienced commentators have been known to confuse STR & RB on occasion.

True, although what is equally important is the fact that confusing a Toro Rosso car for an RB7 does little more than embarrass the commentator. This dispute, on the other hand, embarrasses the sport as a whole, since confusing one outfit for the other had much larger repercussions...

Indeed. That has been the acknowledged case throughout & is one good reason why the dispute is irritating.....

Given the talk of appeals (& possible counter appeals) & the fact that Renault cannot call their chassis "Lotus" but can still use the name, coupled with Bahar's track record in the industry, how long will it be before Proton tire of throwing money at this enterprise & Renault reverts to Genii "ownership".
With the possibility of Renault again having greater involvement in the team....there were rumours a while back that they would like to do so again.

GroupLotusRenault · Post by **GroupLotusRenault** » 27 May 2011, 21:50

Didnt the Chapman family back Group Lotus? But they also said that they should leave the name alone..

S951 · Post by **S951** » 27 May 2011, 22:18

You know what guys and this is just my personal opinion now, I really really could not care less be bothered anymore. As much as I like the current TL with all this naming row it is getting tiring trying to read through some threads it's mainly just fanboys arguing against each other prime example of that is the thread on autosport.

I find myself supporting the drivers more than the team now, plus finding myself supporting hrt alot more and warming a bit to mvr during this debacle, no offence to anyone on here as you are all pretty cool and can have decent talks about any f1 related subject without it descending into anarchy

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 27 May 2011, 22:19

GroupLotusRenault wrote:Didnt the Chapman family back Group Lotus? But they also said that they should leave the name alone..

They changed sides halfway through; probably for marketing reasons.....

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 27 May 2011, 23:33

eagleash wrote:
GroupLotusRenault wrote:Didnt the Chapman family back Group Lotus? But they also said that they should leave the name alone..

They changed sides halfway through; probably for money reasons.....

FTFY, no need to thank me. :mrgreen:

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 27 May 2011, 23:57

My personal opinion is that the name Lotus should remain the the past, no matter what form it takes(team, group, scuderia... whatever) and Fernandez should use the Caterham name and The bunch that untl recently called themselves Renault should go back to calling themselves Renault or find a new name and the name Lotus should never again be used in F1 unless the chapman family are directly involved....

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 28 May 2011, 00:30

Klon wrote:
eagleash wrote:
GroupLotusRenault wrote:Didnt the Chapman family back Group Lotus? But they also said that they should leave the name alone..

They changed sides halfway through; probably for money reasons.....

FTFY, no need to thank me.

Marketing & money are pretty much synonymous wouldn't you say? No thanks required.

GroupLotusRenault · Post by **GroupLotusRenault** » 28 May 2011, 01:57

The name should of stayed away from F1 really, it has caused so much court cases and it looks like it will carry on during the season as group Lotus will lodge an appeal. Why dont Team lotus now its brought Caterham change its name to Caterham Engineering just to stop this mess?

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 28 May 2011, 02:18

GroupLotusRenault wrote:The name should of stayed away from F1 really, it has caused so much court cases and it looks like it will carry on during the season as group Lotus will lodge an appeal. Why dont Team lotus now its brought Caterham change its name to Caterham Engineering just to stop this mess?

Or Group could not lodge an appeal & change their name to Proton...just to stop this mess....

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 28 May 2011, 04:05

WeirdKerr wrote:My personal opinion is that the name Lotus should remain the the past, no matter what form it takes(team, group, scuderia... whatever) and Fernandez should use the Caterham name and The bunch that untl recently called themselves Renault should go back to calling themselves Renault or find a new name and the name Lotus should never again be used in F1 unless the chapman family are directly involved....

BINGO! Someone give this man a beer.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 28 May 2011, 06:30

I would say it's a logical ruling IMO.
Sure, the two lotiis can be a bit confusing if you aren't aware of the circumstances, but in all honesty, that's in name only, and even then its Lotus Renault and Team Lotus. And all confusion ends when you see the cars.

One is a Black and Gold "Best of the rest" while the other is a Green and Yellow midfielder-to-come.

My support lies with Team Lotus though since A) I love their livery, B) They got the most potential out of the "newcomers" and C) Because of National Pride (Heikki!)

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 28 May 2011, 11:34

GroupLotusRenault wrote:The name should of stayed away from F1 really, it has caused so much court cases and it looks like it will carry on during the season as group Lotus will lodge an appeal. Why dont Team lotus now its brought Caterham change its name to Caterham Engineering just to stop this mess?

i think it's likely that they will call the entry 'team lotus' and the car 'caterham'
which of course is a problem for group lotus, who can call their car lotus, but not their entry 'team lotus' to me it's allright as proton HAS the right to call it's car lotus now, but that's clearly not enough for them.
so i guess proton should call it's car lotus and it's entry 'team caterham'

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 30 May 2011, 21:56

I see nothing has really changed after the court decision. A bit disappointing yet clearly logical...

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 01 Jun 2011, 13:12

An interesting piece from Joe Saward today, regarding the future of Group Lotus and Renault in F1.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/06/01/a-log-jam-at-renault-f1/

I found this section quite amusing;

The word is that Renault is so unimpressed with the current situation that it wants to terminate its engine supply deal next year, leaving the team with the option of Cosworth engines

So we could get Lotus Renault Cosworth (sponsored by Lada)! :lol:

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 01 Jun 2011, 13:31

Ed24 wrote:An interesting piece from Joe Saward today, regarding the future of Group Lotus and Renault in F1.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/06/01/a-log-jam-at-renault-f1/

I found this section quite amusing;
The word is that Renault is so unimpressed with the current situation that it wants to terminate its engine supply deal next year, leaving the team with the option of Cosworth engines

So we could get Lotus Renault Cosworth (sponsored by Lada)!

I'd rather see Lada engines when the new rules come in place! A precursor to LADA F1! :lol:

GroupLotusRenault · Post by **GroupLotusRenault** » 02 Jun 2011, 05:45

Team Lotus renault has Caterham now this could be their chance to change their name, Group Lotus renault...well who knows....

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 02 Jun 2011, 08:25

This wrote:...is a problem for group lotus, who can call their car lotus...

No, they can't. They could call the team "Lotus", but only Team Lotus can can call the car a Lotus.

This is basically why Group are planning an appeal.

Post by **mario** » 02 Jun 2011, 09:12

Jordan192 wrote:
This wrote:...is a problem for group lotus, who can call their car lotus...

No, they can't. They could call the team "Lotus", but only Team Lotus can can call the car a Lotus.

This is basically why Group are planning an appeal.

Exactly - there was some confusion after the judgement initially came out, but it seems that Fernandes still has the right to use the Lotus name for the chassis of the car, and the official name of the manufacturer. The Group Lotus backed outfit still has to use the designation of Renault for the chassis maker and manufacturer - only the public name of the team can include the name of Lotus, through the auspices of Group Lotus's position as title sponsor.

FMecha · Post by **FMecha** » 02 Jun 2011, 09:34

Ed24 wrote:An interesting piece from Joe Saward today, regarding the future of Group Lotus and Renault in F1.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/06/01/a-log-jam-at-renault-f1/

I found this section quite amusing;
The word is that Renault is so unimpressed with the current situation that it wants to terminate its engine supply deal next year, leaving the team with the option of Cosworth engines

So we could get Lotus Renault Cosworth (sponsored by Lada)!

If that happens I want to see Renault jumping ship from engine supplying too. :shock:

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 02 Jun 2011, 11:29

So, Tony Fernandes has won this fight. And that means they're the heirs to the original Team Lotus. Hoorray!

Another option...maybe Renault could buy Proton and end this mess once and for all? :lol:

jackanderton · Post by **jackanderton** » 02 Jun 2011, 11:35

The most likeable aspect of either team at the moment are the liveries.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 02 Jun 2011, 11:58

Phoenix wrote:So, Tony Fernandes has won this fight. And that means they're the heirs to the original Team Lotus. Hoorray!

Tony Fernandes is also looking to buy West Ham United claiming to be a long time fan. Expect then for Dany Bahar buying Millwall a year after and changing its name to Group West Ham Millwall promptly generating a court fight.