Pirelli & Mercedes

[GwilymJJames]

So, it turns out that Mercedes did an in-season test with Pirelli after the Spanish GP. Such tests are, of course, banned by the regulations. Mercedes and Pirelli have claimed they had permission from the FIA for the tests, but the FIA have said that there were conditions attached, that may not have been met. Red Bull & Ferrari are, understandably, pretty angry about this, as I imagine are most of the other teams. The Monaco stewards have prepared a report for the FIA, who may take the issue to a tribunal.

[kevinbotz]

So, it turns out that Mercedes did an in-season test with Pirelli after the Spanish GP. Such tests are, of course, banned by the regulations. Mercedes and Pirelli have claimed they had permission from the FIA for the tests, but the FIA have said that there were conditions attached, that may not have been met. Red Bull & Ferrari are, understandably, pretty angry about this, as I imagine are most of the other teams. The Monaco stewards have prepared a report for the FIA, who may take the issue to a tribunal.

Rosberg's win is at least safe, but I think the severity of the charges may warrant a harsher disciplinary action than just a hefty fine.

[andrew2209]

Something tells me we could have a new tyre supplier in 2014.

Surely the fairest thing to do would be to allow all of the other 10 teams a 1000km test?

[Divina_Galica]

There's a lot we don't know about this yet - will be interesting to see what happens....

DG

[johnston21]

Getting details on this will (likely) take a while. Even the FIA is denying detailed awareness...

[razta]

AMuS are reporting that Ross Brawn said the test was paid for by Pirelli.. AND they didn't know what they were going to be testing.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 75637.html
in effect Pirelli "RENTED" the Mercs

Team boss Ross Brawn also emphasized that the test had been paid by Pirelli and Mercedes had no idea what tires were ever in use

[Onxy Wrecked]

AMuS are reporting that Ross Brawn said the test was paid for by Pirelli.. AND they didn't know what they were going to be testing.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 75637.html
in effect Pirelli "RENTED" the Mercs

Team boss Ross Brawn also emphasized that the test had been paid by Pirelli and Mercedes had no idea what tires were ever in use

I guess Pirelli might be in trouble instead of Mercedes ultimately.

[razta]

AMuS are reporting that Ross Brawn said the test was paid for by Pirelli.. AND they didn't know what they were going to be testing.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 75637.html
in effect Pirelli "RENTED" the Mercs

Team boss Ross Brawn also emphasized that the test had been paid by Pirelli and Mercedes had no idea what tires were ever in use

I guess Pirelli might be in trouble instead of Mercedes ultimately.

unlikely, as it's part of pirelli's contract, if they want to test, they pay for it.

[DemocalypseNow]

What I don't understand is that there's no scope for such a test being permitted under the FIA Sporting Regulations. Pirelli and Mercedes keep banging on about how there is a clause which allows them to do this, but frankly, I don't see it.

First of all, Section 22 - Track and Wind Tunnel Testing:

22.1
Track testing shall be considered any track running time not part of an Event undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship, using cars which conform substantially with the current Formula One Technical Regulations in addition to those from the previous or subsequent year. The only exception is that each competitor is permitted up to eight promotional events, carried out using tyres provided specifically for this purpose by the appointed supplier, to a maximum distance of 100kms per event.

22.2
Track testing may only be carried out using cars which have been subjected to, and fulfilled the requirements of, the tests described in Articles 16.2-6, 17.2-3 and 18.2-9 of the F1 Technical Regulations. Furthermore, any car used for track testing must be fitted with the panels described in Articles 15.4.7 and 15.4.8 of the F1 Technical Regulations.

22.3
No competitor may carry out more than 15,000km of track testing during a calendar year.

22.4
No track testing may take place :
a) Whilst a Championship Event is taking place.
b) With more than one car per day at any such test.
c) Before 09.00 or after 18.00 on any day at any such test.
d) On any track located outside Europe without the agreement of the majority of teams and the FIA.
e) During the month of August except under (h)(iii) below.
f) During the month of January.
g) Between 1 February and the start of the week preceding the first Event of the Championship of the same year with the exception of three team tests of no more than four consecutive days duration, carried out on a site approved by the FIA for Formula 1 cars.
h) Between the start of a ten day period which precedes the start of the first Event of the Championship and 31 December of the same year with the following exceptions :
>i) One three day young driver training test carried out on a date and site approved by the FIA following consultation with all teams. No driver who has competed in more than two F1 World Championship races may take part in this test and all drivers must be in possession of an International A Licence.
>ii) Four one day aerodynamic tests carried out on FIA approved straight line or constant radius sites between 1 January of the current year and the start of the last Event of the Championship. Any of these days may be substituted for four hours of wind-on full scale wind tunnel testing to be carried out in a single twenty four hour period.
>iii) If a team declares that one of its current race drivers is to be substituted by a driver who has not participated in an F1 race in the two previous calendar years, one day of track testing will be permitted between the start of a ten day period which precedes the start of the second Event and the last Event of the Championship. The following must be observed:
>>- Any such day may only be carried out by the new driver and may not take place on a circuit hosting a race in the current Championship year.
>>- Any such day may only take place within a period 14 days prior to the substitution and 14 days after the substitution has taken place.
>>- If a team, having declared the driver’s substitution and performed the test, does not then enter an Event with the new driver, the team will be penalised by a reduction of one day from the pre-season track testing days available in the following year.

Second of all, Section 25 - Supply of Tyres in the Championship and Tyre limitations during the event:

25.5 Testing of tyres :
a)Tyres supplied to any competitor at any time may not be used on any rig or vehicle (other than an F1 car on an F1 approved track, at the exclusion of any kind of road simulator), either Team owned or rented, providing measurements of forces and/or moments produced by a rotating full size F1 tyre, other than uniquely vertical forces,
tyre rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag.
b) Tyres may be used on a test rig providing forces control and monitoring by F1 rim manufacturers for the sole purpose of proof testing their products.

What I don't understand is - where is the rule that allows Pirelli to do this? It may well exist in another document, but does that document have the legal power to over-rule the FIA Sporting Regulations? Because from looking at the standard regulations at least, it would appear to be illegal under Article 22.4.

This situation would be a lot easier to understand if either Pirelli or Mercedes were willing to pinpoint which regulation gives them the clearance to conduct such a test. Can someone please point me in the direction of the set of rules they keep talking about? Because frankly I have no idea at the moment.

[mario]

What I don't understand is - where is the rule that allows Pirelli to do this? It may well exist in another document, but does that document have the legal power to over-rule the FIA Sporting Regulations? Because from looking at the standard regulations at least, it would appear to be illegal under Article 22.4.

This situation would be a lot easier to understand if either Pirelli or Mercedes were willing to pinpoint which regulation gives them the clearance to conduct such a test. Can someone please point me in the direction of the set of rules they keep talking about? Because frankly I have no idea at the moment.

The indication from the comments that Pirelli and the FIA have put out is that the clause that Pirelli supposedly invoked is within the contract that they signed with the FIA itself, rather than within the sporting regulations. That private contract they signed appears to contain clauses allowing for the tyres to be changed partway through the season on safety grounds, and it is under that clause that the test by Mercedes seems to have gone through.

On another note, it now looks like the planned tyre changes are being pushed back slightly. It looks like Pirelli was unable to obtain the permission of all of the teams to change the tyres for the Canadian GP - Force India are known to have been strongly opposed to the changes and might have been one of the parties that vetoed the deal - so Pirelli has offered a compromise deal. It now looks like they will bring additional sets of the experimental tyres to Canada for the practise sessions, so all of the teams can try the new compound, but will use their existing tyres for this race and introduce the new tyres from Silverstone onwards. http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/story/109334.html

[razta]

Lauda's take

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oueynAtL7lo

[razta]

[DemocalypseNow]

Yes, PLEASE, Mr Hembrey, we are waiting for you to stop hiding and start telling us what is in this contract between Pirelli and the FIA that gives clearance to do this, and gives this contract the legal power to overrule the FIA Sporting Regulations...

[razta]

it's on now

webcast
Hembery talking
http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/f1/f1webcast.html

[razta]

Apparently...
Schumi tested the merc in that test
according to this italian souce
http://blog.quotidiano.net/turrini/2013 ... -mercedes/

here's a "sketchy" translation

he main points of the article are as follows
1) On the Sunday evening of the Spanish GP Mercedes team behaves like all teams. Fills transporters of each material and I salute you and I, that is, the trucks are returning to the natural destination, in this case Brackley, England.

2) So allayed suspicions, transporters Mercedes changing road and settle down on the Costa Brava, an hour's drive from Montemelo.

3) There, as any tourists, enjoying the mechanics and engineers, because to get the test team from Britain would entail excessive risk (of being caught).

4) There is however the problem of the circuit. The laws, including Spanish, require that for any performance on the track are present not only the employees to the circuit, but also an ambulance and a helicopter for emergency relief.

5) From Stuttgart plant operators of Montmelo make an offer you can not refuse. Triple fee for the rental of the circuit, but the staff is affectionately sent on vacation (paid even that). Security measures shall directly Mercedes, with its health workers and so forth.

6) Armored structure, a car transporter comes completely white, no sign of any kind, on which the vehicle is being loaded 2013. Only at that point the car transporter 'official' back home.

7) Hamilton and Rosberg are summoned by mail, with the request not to bring the suit to work, least of all the helmets personal. Guide with liveries absolutely anonymous, so if someone going from Montmelo hear the sound of a F1 would think, I know, for a commercial.

According to rumors, the curious exhibition was also attended ... Michael Schumacher, kindly invited by Ross Brawn. If both went to the track or not, we do not know.

9) The Pirelli has complied with the code of secrecy that has surrounded the entire operation.

10) The donkey fell in Monte Carlo, when someone is asked on what grounds both Rosberg and Hamilton declare, at every turn, to be fiduciosissimi for Gp, having, according to them, Mercedes solved the trouble of suspension which involved the frightening wear pneumatic found to Barcelona.

11) There were people who put two and two, and so on Sunday morning in Monaco, to avoid being unmasked, Mercedes more Pirelli most Whiting have packed version, already prepared and in itself can not be appealed, the exchange of letters between supplier tires, teams and the FIA about the test.

12) Red Bull and Ferrari have had hysterics and asked what he knew Todt.

13) Todt knew only half, or nearly so, and the matter was understood to be finished in a sea of colored matter, similar to chocolate.

As for the developments 'legal', we'll see

[Londoner]

The plot thickens.

[razta]

Plot is really thick now...
http://www.jazeman.com/news/jazeman-sam ... lverstone/

[DemocalypseNow]

I hate to say it, but Red Bull are absolutely right. Article 22.4(h) has been violated, no question. I think it's a complete farce that the Sporting Regulations could be over-ridden by something agreed in a private contract between the sporting body and one of its suppliers, which the teams would have no knowledge of unless it was directly explained to them by one of those two entities.

I think the FIA are doing a great job of covering their own asses. Sure, Mercedes and Ferrari might be in a certain way culpable for going along with the FIA and Pirelli with these tests, but the two entities that should be penalised in some way are the those who coersed those teams into doing the tests. I think Ferrari and Mercedes were extremely naive in agreeing to do these tests, because clearly the FIA is completely and uttery incompetent.

Some way or another the FIA will find a way to turn Mercedes into scapegoats while making themselves look good. Because the real screws up here are the people in charge of the sport. Even though many don't want to see the satisfaciton of Red Bull being right and getting an upper hand because of a penalty to rival teams, it would be the right thing to happen. The sporting regulations have been violated, this is an undeniable fact.

[Gerudo Dragon]

Well, yeah. Rules are rules, even though Red Bull have done more damage to F1 than this technical violation will ever do...

[RonDenisDeletraz]

You have a point Stramala, although nobody can tell me Red Bull aren't exploiting this for their own benifit

[DemocalypseNow]

You have a point Stramala, although nobody can tell me Red Bull aren't exploiting this for their own benifit

Why does anyone do anything?

Of course they're doing it for their own benefit, but it doesn't change the fact all four aforementioned groups got involved in something that shouldn't have been happening. If you held people in contempt for doing something for their own benefit, you'd have to write off the entire human race.

[RonDenisDeletraz]

I know, but they have no right to the moral high ground that they are seemingly trying to claim with this.
Besides I have plenty enough reasons to hate the entire human race anyway

[AndreaModa]

Potentially unpopular opinion time.

None of this would have happened under Max Mosley.

[mario]

I hate to say it, but Red Bull are absolutely right. Article 22.4(h) has been violated, no question. I think it's a complete farce that the Sporting Regulations could be over-ridden by something agreed in a private contract between the sporting body and one of its suppliers, which the teams would have no knowledge of unless it was directly explained to them by one of those two entities.

I think the FIA are doing a great job of covering their own asses. Sure, Mercedes and Ferrari might be in a certain way culpable for going along with the FIA and Pirelli with these tests, but the two entities that should be penalised in some way are the those who coersed those teams into doing the tests. I think Ferrari and Mercedes were extremely naive in agreeing to do these tests, because clearly the FIA is completely and uttery incompetent.

Some way or another the FIA will find a way to turn Mercedes into scapegoats while making themselves look good. Because the real screws up here are the people in charge of the sport. Even though many don't want to see the satisfaciton of Red Bull being right and getting an upper hand because of a penalty to rival teams, it would be the right thing to happen. The sporting regulations have been violated, this is an undeniable fact.

It certainly doesn't cast a positive light on the FIA given that there have been claims and counter claims about who knew what and when. At the very least, the FIA has, through its own communications, effectively admitted that the contract that they signed with Pirelli did contain the clause about testing with a representative car that seems to have provided the loophole to allow that article to be breached, so there are a few questions which could be asked about their role in this matter.

Mind you, much as Todt might look to shift blame to Mercedes, Ferrari and Pirelli rather than itself, it looks as if this incident is also being swept up into some of the wider politics of the sport. There have been a few wondering if this is a sign of a battle between the FIA and FOM over who has the right to make deals with the tyre manufacturers - FOM, at the moment, claims that right, hence the current deal with Pirelli, but it seems that the FIA is trying to impose its rights to dictate the terms to the tyre manufacturers in its desire to bring in somebody else (possibly Michelin). Creating a political row that could help push Pirelli out of the sport could be one way for the FIA to get its preferred bidder and assert its authority...

You have a point Stramala, although nobody can tell me Red Bull aren't exploiting this for their own benifit

Why does anyone do anything?

Of course they're doing it for their own benefit, but it doesn't change the fact all four aforementioned groups got involved in something that shouldn't have been happening. If you held people in contempt for doing something for their own benefit, you'd have to write off the entire human race.

That cannot be denied: even if Horner has made it clear that the team are gunning for Mercedes only in this instance, that is probably because, as a third party supplier, there is no real action that they can take against Pirelli given that they are not an official entrant. I wouldn't be surprised if they were to try to get Ferrari hammered over this incident too - in fact, being their closest competitors in the WDC and WCC, I was expecting them to be more aggressive towards them, especially since it is not entirely clear what tyres Ferrari were testing with their car (Pirelli have only denied that Mercedes tested a replacement 2013 spec tyre but said nothing about what Ferrari were trying out in their test).
Still, given that both outfits have given Red Bull plenty of ammunition with which to shoot them down, they cannot be blamed for using it - someone, somewhere, along the line agreed to what looks like a potential major breach of the accepted regulations, but whether they will be the ones why pay for it or not is another matter.

[Wallio]

Potentially unpopular opinion time.

None of this would have happened under Max Mosley.

I agree 100% actually. Now if you excuse me, I need a shower.

[mario]

So, it has now been confirmed that Mercedes is being referred to the International Tribune for a formal investigation in order for the FIA to assess whether Mercedes was or wasn't in breach of the regulations and contracts with the FIA. They have also confirmed that Ferrari, having been questioned about their tyre test with a 2011 car, will face no further action after the initial review concluded that their test did not contravene any existing regulations. http://www.espn.co.uk/fia/motorsport/story/109726.html

[Jocke1]

I'm wondering here why Pirelli couldn't have contacted and conducted their tyre test in Barcelona, with any of the "0 points teams" in the WCC, instead of Mercedes.

If Pirelli would have chosen either Williams-Renault, Marussia-Cosworth or Caterham-Renault to do the test,
surely this controversy would never have surfaced?
I don't think Ferrari, Red Bull, Lotus and Mercedes would care in the least what Pirelli would have been up to with any of those three teams.
Unless GvdG would have suddenly won the Monaco GP or something.

Is anyone with me on this?

[Salamander]

I'm wondering here why Pirelli couldn't have contacted and conducted their tyre test in Barcelona, with any of the "0 points teams" in the WCC, instead of Mercedes.

If Pirelli would have chosen either Williams-Renault, Marussia-Cosworth or Caterham-Renault to do the test,
surely this controversy would never have surfaced?
I don't think Ferrari, Red Bull, Lotus and Mercedes would care in the least what Pirelli would have been up to with any of those three teams.
Unless GvdG would have suddenly won the Monaco GP or something.

Is anyone with me on this?

The top teams might not care, but I guarantee you the midfield would've kicked up a fuss. And given McLaren is midfield this year...

[Jocke1]

From yesterdays press conference:

Q: (Paolo Ianieri - La Gazzetta dello Sport) Nico, if you say it was just a normal test, why were you and Lewis using anonymous helmets?
NR: Don’t want to comment on that. Sorry.

[johnston21]

Wondering what the $ fine that will likely be imposed to Pirelli by the FIA for Hembery for missing the Fri. Press Conf.

[Jocke1]

[mario]

I'm wondering here why Pirelli couldn't have contacted and conducted their tyre test in Barcelona, with any of the "0 points teams" in the WCC, instead of Mercedes.

If Pirelli would have chosen either Williams-Renault, Marussia-Cosworth or Caterham-Renault to do the test,
surely this controversy would never have surfaced?
I don't think Ferrari, Red Bull, Lotus and Mercedes would care in the least what Pirelli would have been up to with any of those three teams.
Unless GvdG would have suddenly won the Monaco GP or something.

Is anyone with me on this?

The top teams might not care, but I guarantee you the midfield would've kicked up a fuss. And given McLaren is midfield this year...

Exactly - it might have changed the respective parties, but somebody would have complained if another team took part in the test other than Mercedes if the same procedures had been followed.
Imagine if, for example, Williams had taken part in that test under the same circumstances as Mercedes did. In that scenario, whilst the larger outfits might not complain so much, outfits like Sauber, Toro Rosso or Force India, and possibly McLaren, would potentially want to complain, especially if, by chance or because of the test, Williams were also more competitive in the next few races.

Wondering what the $ fine that will likely be imposed to Pirelli by the FIA for Hembery for missing the Fri. Press Conf.

Adam Cooper has mentioned, via Twitter, that it looks like Pirelli's own legal team advised him to stay away from that press conference - and he's also suggesting that Bernie might have advised him to stay away too. If Bernie was also advising him to stay away, it may be the case that the fine is negotiated downwards thanks to pressure from FOM...

[Londoner]

Hearing is set for June 20th

[James1978]

I'm fearing a two-race ban for Merc. That'll really hit them where it hurts because both drivers will therefore miss their home race.

[mario]

I'm fearing a two-race ban for Merc. That'll really hit them where it hurts because both drivers will therefore miss their home race.

I cannot imagine that FOM would be pleased about that, though - I would imagine that Bernie would push for some sort of punishment that would not see Mercedes being sidelined if the FIA does levy any penalties (i.e. heavy fines or being docked points rather than race bans).

I wonder what will happen to Pirelli though? The FIA has asked them to appear at the Tribunal alongside Mercedes and intends to file charges against them too (even though one could argue that, strictly speaking, Pirelli is just a third party supplier and any action should be taken up via the legal system based on the terms of their contracts with the FIA and FOM).

[solarcold]

I think Paul Hembery is a pretty cool guy. Eh just supplies tires and doesn't afraid of anything.

Seriously, guys. Let's salute Pirelli. I don't understand a single bit of criticism upon them. They won the competition to supply the F1 tyres. They supply them. They made precisely the tires FIA has requested, they constantly supply them, they do everything possible in the no-no-testing conditions to keep them working and ready, they sacrifice even their own reputation in favor of Formula 1. Why laugh at Pirelli? What's wrong? What's their mistake? They do _everything_ correctly.

[Salamander]

I think Paul Hembery is a pretty cool guy. Eh just supplies tires and doesn't afraid of anything.

Seriously, guys. Let's salute Pirelli. I don't understand a single bit of criticism upon them. They won the competition to supply the F1 tyres. They supply them. They made precisely the tires FIA has requested, they constantly supply them, they do everything possible in the no-no-testing conditions to keep them working and ready, they sacrifice even their own reputation in favor of Formula 1. Why laugh at Pirelli? What's wrong? What's their mistake? They do _everything_ correctly.

This. I fully support Pirelli, they do their job and they do it well.

[DemocalypseNow]

If I were Mercedes I'd be organising a bathpluggling lynch mob against the FIA. This is 100% their fault. And still, the sporting body manages to find a way to convince the world it is all Mercedes' and Pirelli's fault.

So, the FIA and Pirelli had an agreement in the tyre supply contract. Then the FIA is completely incompetent and doesn't bother to make this type of tyre test legal in the sporting regulations. But then the FIA tells Pirelli and Mercedes it doesn't matter and to go ahead anyway. And then decides to rescind that promise and punish them.

I have no idea how the FIA are not having their reptutation completely and utterly ruined by this. They f***ed the tyre manufacturer and the team involved in the test over, and then made it look like the two guys they f***ed over were the bad guys.

FIA should stand for F***ing Incompetent A**eholes.

[mario]

I think Paul Hembery is a pretty cool guy. Eh just supplies tires and doesn't afraid of anything.

Seriously, guys. Let's salute Pirelli. I don't understand a single bit of criticism upon them. They won the competition to supply the F1 tyres. They supply them. They made precisely the tires FIA has requested, they constantly supply them, they do everything possible in the no-no-testing conditions to keep them working and ready, they sacrifice even their own reputation in favor of Formula 1. Why laugh at Pirelli? What's wrong? What's their mistake? They do _everything_ correctly.

Because, to a certain segment of the fanbase, they represent an easy target for what they reject in F1, which is what they feel is the overemphasis of the flashier aspects of the sport. The tyres that Pirelli are supplying are a manifestation of their hatred for what they feel Bernie and FOM have done to the sport, and therefore they take the brunt of that discontent.

[Londoner]

It's the abuse they're getting from so-called purists, who apparently would much rather see a procession where the same old names dominate race after race after race. I think Pirelli are doing a sterling job myself. Anything that brings the field closer together and mixes up the results is a plus point in my book.

I guarantee there were people who were furious because Perez and Maldonado were fighting for wins in the first half of 2012, because they're not top drivers, and they were in midfield cars.