the greatest driver never to have competed in F1?

Warren Hughes · Post by **Warren Hughes** » 31 Dec 2010, 13:58

This is where I butt in and ask you to look at my username, avatar and the link in my sig. Thank you and goodnight.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 31 Dec 2010, 14:36

I don't like GrandAm because there's no good reason it and ALMS are separate, not to mention the races I've seen were either wreckfests or boring as hell, and with questionable car counts.

....not to mention Corvette fans in ALMS are like Dale Junior fans in NASCAR.

Post by **mario** » 31 Dec 2010, 14:49

the Masked Lapwing wrote:
F1000X wrote:How would you classify a V8 Supercar? They're certainly not GTs or Prototypes, and touring car doesn't sound right for something of its caliber of awesomeness. Bathurst has to be one of the top 10 greatest races on earth.

It's definitely a touring car category. It'd be better if the Holdens and Fords were actually different...

The V8 Supercars are defined as Touring Cars, even if they are not as closely related to a road going car as, say, a WTCC car would be. But, on the other hand, the DTM cars are also known as Touring Cars, even though they are essentially unrelated to the road cars they superficially resemble.

Perhaps the term "Silhouette car" would be more appropriate? I've heard it used in relation to DTM cars, where the term is used to refer to a car which superficially resembles a roadgoing model, but underneath is substantially different. In the case of the DTM series, that is true, as the cars are probably closer to prototype class cars instead of touring cars (and have been compared to them in terms of handling), but it might also be applicable to a V8 Supercar, even though they are still, to a certain extent, based on a road car.

F1000X wrote:
Cynon wrote:I'm not familiar with domestic racing in other countries or with sportscars (GrandAM sucks and ALMS just never caught my interest... or even the regular Le Mans series...), and I haven't seen enough V8 Supercar races to accurately judge the field in that series.

Wat, you don't like Grand Am or ALMS? Daytona Prototypes are the NASCAR of road racing! Complete with door banging and fights! (I have included videos so the europeans can partake in the joy of Grand AM).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCWgiMzjbx8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSC0ch6pi8Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia1TSwLGwBk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L67J64yr8X8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SQhu65t1yo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DD2xTQdwYo

Here's a little ALMS action for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXLGMZDKBv8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjWo8VdMb8I&feature=related An excellent example of Ferrari and Jamie Melos scumbaggery. Jorg won the race straight up and Jamie has to bump him to take it back.

Wasn't Bergmeister responsible for pushing a driver into the wall at the Laguna Seca round of the ALMS? There was, if I remember correctly, a battle between the Porsche 911 and Corvette C6R entries, where at the final corner, the Corvette bumped into the rear of the Porsche, unsettling the Porsche under braking. In retaliation, the Porsche driver, proceeded to move across on the Corvette, before physically pushing it into the wall and wrecking the Corvette.
Either way, I wouldn't say the Ferrari's rivals over at Porsche can claim to be angels on the track, as they have pushed and banged their rivals about on track as much as anybody else.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 31 Dec 2010, 14:57

mario wrote:Wasn't Bergmeister responsible for pushing a driver into the wall at the Laguna Seca round of the ALMS? There was, if I remember correctly, a battle between the Porsche 911 and Corvette C6R entries, where at the final corner, the Corvette bumped into the rear of the Porsche, unsettling the Porsche under braking. In retaliation, the Porsche driver, proceeded to move across on the Corvette, before physically pushing it into the wall and wrecking the Corvette.
Either way, I wouldn't say the Ferrari's rivals over at Porsche can claim to be angels on the track, as they have pushed and banged their rivals about on track as much as anybody else.

Indeed, I believe the punted driver in question was everyone's favorite danish reject, Jan Magnussen. It was a bit of a dick move

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 31 Dec 2010, 15:41

Hmmm, after thinking som more on this, I don't think we know the names of the greatest drivers who never had a chance to compete in F1. I belive that many of the best drivers didn't have enough money to get far (not including myself:P). And when I think of it, Thor-Christian Ebbesvik, looks like a fast driver.

Anyway, slightly OT, can anyone from america, please try to catch up with how Anders Krohn is doing it in Indy Lights next year?

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 31 Dec 2010, 16:15

Tazio Nuvolari, he didn't technically compete in Formula 1.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 31 Dec 2010, 16:25

mario wrote: Wasn't Bergmeister responsible for pushing a driver into the wall at the Laguna Seca round of the ALMS? There was, if I remember correctly, a battle between the Porsche 911 and Corvette C6R entries, where at the final corner, the Corvette bumped into the rear of the Porsche, unsettling the Porsche under braking. In retaliation, the Porsche driver, proceeded to move across on the Corvette, before physically pushing it into the wall and wrecking the Corvette.
Either way, I wouldn't say the Ferrari's rivals over at Porsche can claim to be angels on the track, as they have pushed and banged their rivals about on track as much as anybody else.

The C6R didn't exist in 2007. This happened long before Laguna Seca. In my opinion the Sebring incident brought about a change of heart for Jorg about driving. He and his team (Flying Lizard) virulently protested the outcome, and were basically told by Mark Raffauf to f*** off. After this, it was pretty clear Jorg's attitude about racing clean had changed.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 31 Dec 2010, 16:26

Alvaro Parente.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 31 Dec 2010, 16:29

Myrvold wrote:Hmmm, after thinking som more on this, I don't think we know the names of the greatest drivers who never had a chance to compete in F1. I belive that many of the best drivers didn't have enough money to get far (not including myself:P). And when I think of it, Thor-Christian Ebbesvik, looks like a fast driver.

Anyway, slightly OT, can anyone from america, please try to catch up with how Anders Krohn is doing it in Indy Lights next year?

Nobody really pays attention to Indy Lights, they and the Atlantic Championship (our F3 equivalent) have become virtually anonymous. One gets no TV coverage and the other is on a channel that nobody watches (premium cable). If you want I can look up the result for you as they occur. The only Indy Lights races I watch are the road courses and Indy.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 31 Dec 2010, 16:36

Waris wrote:Alvaro Parente.

There is still hope that he manages to somehow get a drive in a near future. He was supposed to be Virgin test driver this year until a sponsor backed out...

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 31 Dec 2010, 17:42

F1000X wrote:Nobody really pays attention to Indy Lights, they and the Atlantic Championship (our F3 equivalent) have become virtually anonymous. One gets no TV coverage and the other is on a channel that nobody watches (premium cable). If you want I can look up the result for you as they occur. The only Indy Lights races I watch are the road courses and Indy.

Oki, yes, that would be nice, and if you watch the Indy Light at Indy, please tell me how he /really/ drives, his webpage are not very neutral (of course). However, I know that he don't carry a single sponsor, and actually gets payed for driving, is that normal?

Kobacrashi · Post by **Kobacrashi** » 31 Dec 2010, 18:17

I am going to have to say Colin McRae. Rally legend and amazing show man. Other than that maybe rydell and menu from th touring car glory days. Or even Plato, although he would probably crash before the first corner most of the time.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 31 Dec 2010, 18:20

Myrvold wrote: I know that he don't carry a single sponsor, and actually gets payed for driving, is that normal?

No. Is that ever normal?

Post by **mario** » 31 Dec 2010, 19:15

F1000X wrote:
mario wrote: Wasn't Bergmeister responsible for pushing a driver into the wall at the Laguna Seca round of the ALMS? There was, if I remember correctly, a battle between the Porsche 911 and Corvette C6R entries, where at the final corner, the Corvette bumped into the rear of the Porsche, unsettling the Porsche under braking. In retaliation, the Porsche driver, proceeded to move across on the Corvette, before physically pushing it into the wall and wrecking the Corvette.
Either way, I wouldn't say the Ferrari's rivals over at Porsche can claim to be angels on the track, as they have pushed and banged their rivals about on track as much as anybody else.

The C6R didn't exist in 2007. This happened long before Laguna Seca. In my opinion the Sebring incident brought about a change of heart for Jorg about driving. He and his team (Flying Lizard) virulently protested the outcome, and were basically told by Mark Raffauf to f*** off. After this, it was pretty clear Jorg's attitude about racing clean had changed.

I should have been a little clearer with my original post, since I was aware that the incident in Laguna Seca was considerably later than the incident in the Sebring 12h.

To be fair to Jorg, I agree with him that the move by Melo was underhand, and that Magnusson did hit Jorg fairly hard several years later in the Laguna Seca, so he probably would have had bad memories of what happened before. However, even allowing for that, what Jorg did was dangerous - you shouldn't get revenge by shunting somebody into a concrete wall, let alone at high speed - and, as a result, far worse than the move that Melo pulled two years before.

Still, back onto topic:

Myrvold wrote:Hmmm, after thinking som more on this, I don't think we know the names of the greatest drivers who never had a chance to compete in F1. I belive that many of the best drivers didn't have enough money to get far (not including myself:P). And when I think of it, Thor-Christian Ebbesvik, looks like a fast driver.

Anyway, slightly OT, can anyone from america, please try to catch up with how Anders Krohn is doing it in Indy Lights next year?

I think that you are probably right - we can only make suppositions about what might have happened if a particular known driver decided on a different career path that lead into Formula 1, and to a team which could nurture their talents. Hell, there have been countless drivers who came into the sport, showing talent and promising much, but either underperformed, struggled with hopeless cars or were simply kicked out because of money - so how we could objectively access those who didn't, and drove or are driving very different cars, is not an easy task.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 31 Dec 2010, 19:19

redbulljack14 wrote:Tazio Nuvolari, he didn't technically compete in Formula 1.

I refer you to my post on the prevoius page:

dr-baker wrote:How about any of the great pre-war drivers? Tazio Nuvolari, Bernd Rosemeyer, Ferenc Szisz, Dick Seaman? They were all GP winners, yet it was not yet F1.

SuperAguri · Post by **SuperAguri** » 31 Dec 2010, 20:03

I think Richard Lee Petty would have made a great F1 driver back in the 60s and early 70s. I do think he is one of the greatest drivers of all time, it is just a pity he just drove in NASCAR and some other American road races.

Apart from that I can think of anyone else....

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 31 Dec 2010, 20:47

mario wrote: To be fair to Jorg, I agree with him that the move by Melo was underhand, and that Magnusson did hit Jorg fairly hard several years later in the Laguna Seca, so he probably would have had bad memories of what happened before. However, even allowing for that, what Jorg did was dangerous - you shouldn't get revenge by shunting somebody into a concrete wall, let alone at high speed - and, as a result, far worse than the move that Melo pulled two years before.

I don't think Jorg meant to wreck Magnussen at all, especially not as violently as he did.
Trying to keep Jan from passing: Yes.
Driving Jan to the pitwall to keep him from passing: Yes.
Spinning him intentionally to keep him from winning: No.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 31 Dec 2010, 22:22

Erhm, I have to disagree with you.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 31 Dec 2010, 22:26

The greatest driver never to have competed in F1?

Probably some unknown on a bicycle in Beijing. Or somewhere in India. Or in abject poverty in Africa. But then, they aren't drivers.

rdbextreme · Post by **rdbextreme** » 31 Dec 2010, 23:04

there are so many!

Marcos Ambrose

Sébastien Loeb

Dario Franchitti

Will Power

Honorary: Valentino Rossi (has proven great things on his 4 wheel exhibitions)

Rocks with Salt · Post by **Rocks with Salt** » 01 Jan 2011, 01:29

Filipe Albuquerque anyone? Winner of the Race of Champions a month ago? Over Loeb and Vettel?

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 01 Jan 2011, 01:55

Well, RoC is a completely different thing than F1, that's for sure

LucaPacchiarini · Post by **LucaPacchiarini** » 01 Jan 2011, 11:48

Helio Castro Neves!

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 01 Jan 2011, 12:57

Rocks with Salt wrote:Filipe Albuquerque anyone? Winner of the Race of Champions a month ago? Over Loeb and Vettel?

Wasn't that the same thing where Kovalainen beat Michael Schumacher once?

jpm · Post by **jpm** » 01 Jan 2011, 13:12

Rocks with Salt wrote:Filipe Albuquerque anyone? Winner of the Race of Champions a month ago? Over Loeb and Vettel?

I would agree that he is talented; he was a title contender for Portugal in A1 GP a few years back, and had Red Bull sponsorship in his F Renulat EuroCup days; I believe he fared well against Alguersuari, but hey; he's not the best ever.

There was a feature in last week's Autosport about Tom Kristensen, hom they reckon is the greatest ever non F1 driver; and personally I would have to agree.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 01 Jan 2011, 13:53

Myrvold wrote:Anyway, slightly OT, can anyone from america, please try to catch up with how Anders Krohn is doing it in Indy Lights next year?

I'll try and catch up with the Viking's Firestone Indy Lights results this upcoming season. Is there any particular reason (other than being a Norwegian driver) you are interested in him, out of curiosity.

jpm · Post by **jpm** » 01 Jan 2011, 14:47

Cynon wrote:
Myrvold wrote:Anyway, slightly OT, can anyone from america, please try to catch up with how Anders Krohn is doing it in Indy Lights next year?

I'll try and catch up with the Viking's Firestone Indy Lights results this upcoming season. Is there any particular reason (other than being a Norwegian driver) you are interested in him, out of curiosity.

I'll tell you one thing; if he's up against Conor Daly (son of you known who!) then Anders won't stand a chance! Daly blitzed everyone in the Star Mazda's last year, but I reckon if he stays in it James Hinchcliffe should be in with a shout; then again I desperately hope he gets a seat at Newman-Haas because he's awesome!!! Watch out for Pippa Mann too; she's English even though she sounds like she's from Down Under...

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 01 Jan 2011, 17:42

Cynon wrote:
Myrvold wrote:Anyway, slightly OT, can anyone from america, please try to catch up with how Anders Krohn is doing it in Indy Lights next year?

I'll try and catch up with the Viking's Firestone Indy Lights results this upcoming season. Is there any particular reason (other than being a Norwegian driver) you are interested in him, out of curiosity.

Nah, nothing else that he is Norwegian, and the fact that he doesn't need to carry any money to drive, there must be something about him. Not to mention that Norway only have 2 drivers in a fairly high open-wheeler championship.

Post by **tommykl** » 01 Jan 2011, 18:21

Myrvold wrote:Not to mention that Norway only have 2 drivers in a fairly high open-wheeler championship.

The other being Pal Varhaug, I presume.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 01 Jan 2011, 18:30

Yup. And that is what we have in open-wheelers. We have Thor-Christian Ebbesvik in Le Mans Series, he is driving suprisingly well. And we also have Tommy Rustad in STCC, and that's it when it comes to Norwegian drivers in international series (not counting VLN or rally).

watka · Post by **watka** » 04 Jan 2011, 20:56

Having just looked at his Wikipedia profile after remembering his name, Max Wilson probably could have spent a fair few seasons in F1 if he had the money.

rdbextreme · Post by **rdbextreme** » 05 Jan 2011, 01:20

Let us not forget about Justin Wilson, Graham Rahal, Helio Castroneves, and even Jeff Gordon of Nascar. Possibly even Jimmy Johnson

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 05 Jan 2011, 01:41

rdbextreme wrote:Let us not forget about Justin Wilson, Graham Rahal, Helio Castroneves, and even Jeff Gordon of Nascar. Possibly even Jimmy Johnson

Justin Wilson drove for Minardi and Jaguar in 2003, and is an F1 Reject, don't you know.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 05 Jan 2011, 02:07

rdbextreme wrote:Let us not forget about Justin Wilson, Graham Rahal, Helio Castroneves, and even Jeff Gordon of Nascar. Possibly even Jimmy Johnson

I believe Castroneves has already been mentioned, and I've also mentioned Gordon. Jimmie Johnson, I'm not so sure about - to hear some of our American contingent, his success is largely down to his car, and his having the best crew chief. I can't speak from my own observations, though, since I haven't watched a NASCAR race in over 5 years.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 05 Jan 2011, 06:35

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
rdbextreme wrote:Let us not forget about Justin Wilson, Graham Rahal, Helio Castroneves, and even Jeff Gordon of Nascar. Possibly even Jimmy Johnson

I believe Castroneves has already been mentioned, and I've also mentioned Gordon. Jimmie Johnson, I'm not so sure about - to hear some of our American contingent, his success is largely down to his car, and his having the best crew chief. I can't speak from my own observations, though, since I haven't watched a NASCAR race in over 5 years.

Johnson has Schumachered his way to all five of those titles. He definitely has some talent, but he's also in far and away the best equipment and has the best crew chief and team around him.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 05 Jan 2011, 10:15

Johnson has Schumachered his way to all five of those titles. He definitely has some talent, but he's also in far and away the best equipment and has the best crew chief and team around him.

Also, he only got his first win at a road course this year... Tony Stewart has a much better road course history.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 05 Jan 2011, 11:14

thehemogoblin wrote:Johnson has Schumachered his way to all five of those titles. He definitely has some talent, but he's also in far and away the best equipment and has the best crew chief and team around him.

If by best crew chief you mean guy who has been caught cheating enough times he should have been banned from the sport a long time ago. bathplug Chad Knaus, he's a scumbag, he and Jimmie Johnson. Truth be told, there aren't many drivers in Nascar I'm not disgusted by, Tony Stewart, Johnson, Kurt and Kyle Busch, all classless Nelson Piquet style trash.

Mark Martin. There's a good dude. Why hasn't he won a cup championship?

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 05 Jan 2011, 22:15

Andy Rouse
Jeff Gordon
Colin McRae
Mattias Ekstrom

rdbextreme · Post by **rdbextreme** » 05 Jan 2011, 23:09

I'm sorry to have mentioned Jimmie Johnson!! LOL I can see the passion fuming from many posters here. I just thought he needed an honorable mention. As for Justin Wilson, Minardi was far below sub-par when he was there for his short stint... so I really don't even count that as F1 experience.

rdbextreme · Post by **rdbextreme** » 05 Jan 2011, 23:12

kostas22 wrote:Andy Rouse
Jeff Gordon
Colin McRae
Mattias Ekstrom

EEwwww Nice mention of Colin McRae!!!!