Massa Hit / Will Not Race In Hungary

muttley · Post by **muttley** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:03

shinji wrote:I wish they came out really often and honestly and candidly explained his condition. It was the same with Henry Surtees - just look through that thread and you can see how the story was pieced together from Twitter and other random sources. With the internet, this is inevitable, so regular updates would be a good move and would stop fans worrying and posting ranting comments like this. I know there are reasons for not doing this, but it's just annoying how he weant from having a 'positive outcome to surgery' to being in a 'life threatening condition' and is now 'satisfactory'.

Well, we don't know how the press conference exactly went. My guess: on one side there is a neurosurgeon, a scientist, trained not to exclude any possibility and evaluate the situation as it evolves. On the other sides sport journalists, who by trade must peddle sensationalism. In this exchange between foreign cultures (and possibly foreign languages) it's very likely that "brain damage can't be excluded" translates into "brain damage is certain". I am not saying that journos are willfully misleading, just that the "languages" of science and sport don't always match.

Chilled Phill · Post by **Chilled Phill** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:05

muttley wrote:I am not saying that journos are willfully misleading, just that the "languages" of science and sport don't always match.

It depends what newspaper the certain journalist comes from. 20p (excuse the use of sterling please, non-Brits!) newspapers will probably make a more sensationalist story than say a £1 newspaper.

muttley · Post by **muttley** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:10

Chilled Phill wrote:They're designed to withstand an impact if you crash into something, not if something hits you directly on the head - if you understand.

They actually test the visor by shooting a high speed steel ball at it and measuring that the deflection is less than 2.5 mm. But again, testing doesn't solve EVERY possbile scenario.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:11

Debaser wrote:This may sound callous, but "Racing driver in life-threatening condition" is a story more people will read than "Massa in stable condition". That doesn't reflect well on society, but I think its true.

What you say makes some sense. We heard the news on the radio and my sister, who's a journalism student, mentioned that if she had written such a piece, she'd simply be failed because of sensationalism.

A crash helmet is a device for spreading the energy of an impact. It is not a sort of bullet-proof sci-fi device that'll protect you no matter what. I remember the same discussion when Dijiro Kato died in 2003, in MotoGP. His crash helmet actually broke when he hit the wall. And it worked just as it had to, spreading the energy of the impact. It's just that something's go to give.

Chilled Phill · Post by **Chilled Phill** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:14

muttley wrote:
Chilled Phill wrote:They're designed to withstand an impact if you crash into something, not if something hits you directly on the head - if you understand.

They actually test the visor by shooting a high speed steel ball at it and measuring that the deflection is less than 2.5 mm. But again, testing doesn't solve EVERY possbile scenario.

Makes sense. Very impressive that they deflect only 2.5mm (or, to put that into perspective, half the length of a red ant!), though! :shock:

Although the idea of a (roughly) 1kg mass bouncing on the track for going straight into the helmet, one could argue that those odds would be pretty far indeed, no?

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:17

That suspension part weighed 800g. Considering he was hit on the head at around 150mph by an 800g object, its miraculous he even lives, the helmet did a good job.

Chilled Phill · Post by **Chilled Phill** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:21

Debaser wrote:That suspension part weighed 800g. Considering he was hit on the head at around 150mph by an 800g object, its miraculous he even lives, the helmet did a good job.

Apologies, I didn't mean that the helmet wasn't up to scratch. I'm just saying the odds of this happening were pretty low considering the rigorous tests the cars go through before they're even allowed onto the track.

Still, I agree, the helmet did a commendable job in such a disturbing set of events.

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:25

Felipe Massa has been operated on this evening and is now in an induced coma in the AEK Hospital in Budapest.

An inaccurate report from AP this evening suggested that his condition was life threatening but this is not the case. The operation was successful and he is likely to be woken tomorrow.

Medical estimates of how long he will be out of action vary from two months, to longer. It has been suggested by one doctor here that he may miss the rest of the season. More will be known when the medically induced coma ends and the medics can assess the amount of bruising to the front of the brain.

The 28 year old was hit in the head by a spring which had fallen from the rear suspension of Rubens Barrichello’s Brawn car. He was on a lap heading back to the pits and was four seconds behind Barrichello on the road, when the spring became detached. It bounced down the road for four seconds and hit Massa in the head. He was briefly knocked unconscious and his feet went onto the brake and throttle simultaneously.

The data says that he applied 60bar of pressure to the brake, which is the equivalent of laying his foot on it gently, while the throttle was effectively jammed on.

Ross Brawn tonight explained that the spring was from the third damper and is made of steel and weighs around a kilogramme.

“The damper is still attached but the cap had come off and the spring escaped,” said Brawn. “I don’t know the full details but it was a freak accident.”

Brawn replaced the spring on Jenson Button’s car just in case, but Brawn said that this did not affect the balance of the car for Button’s final qualifying run.

He said that he had never experienced a spring detaching itself in all his years in F1 engineering. He added that he thought that the work done on making helmets safer had been ‘essential’ in this situation.

This is from James Allen's site, he's a trustworthy source from what I've read of hs stuff this season.

muttley · Post by **muttley** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:29

Here's a picture of the spring coming off:

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:38

If he's been seriously injured enough that they induced a coma, I'd be surprised to see him on the grid again this season. And it's not like he has a World Driver's Championship to risk his health over.

Hope he'll be okay long term.

Can't wait for the Brawn were trying to sabotage Barrichello's car conspiracy theories to crop up...

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:40

Debaser wrote:Felipe Massa has been operated on this evening and is now in an induced coma in the AEK Hospital in Budapest.

An inaccurate report from AP this evening suggested that his condition was life threatening but this is not the case. The operation was successful and he is likely to be woken tomorrow.

Medical estimates of how long he will be out of action vary from two months, to longer. It has been suggested by one doctor here that he may miss the rest of the season. More will be known when the medically induced coma ends and the medics can assess the amount of bruising to the front of the brain.

The 28 year old was hit in the head by a spring which had fallen from the rear suspension of Rubens Barrichello’s Brawn car. He was on a lap heading back to the pits and was four seconds behind Barrichello on the road, when the spring became detached. It bounced down the road for four seconds and hit Massa in the head. He was briefly knocked unconscious and his feet went onto the brake and throttle simultaneously.

The data says that he applied 60bar of pressure to the brake, which is the equivalent of laying his foot on it gently, while the throttle was effectively jammed on.

Ross Brawn tonight explained that the spring was from the third damper and is made of steel and weighs around a kilogramme.

“The damper is still attached but the cap had come off and the spring escaped,” said Brawn. “I don’t know the full details but it was a freak accident.”

Brawn replaced the spring on Jenson Button’s car just in case, but Brawn said that this did not affect the balance of the car for Button’s final qualifying run.

He said that he had never experienced a spring detaching itself in all his years in F1 engineering. He added that he thought that the work done on making helmets safer had been ‘essential’ in this situation.

This is from James Allen's site, he's a trustworthy source from what I've read of hs stuff this season.

Thanks for this. Sounds calm, researched and fact-full.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:44

Enforcer wrote:Can't wait for the Brawn were trying to sabotage Barrichello's car conspiracy theories to crop up...

They have; on our very own forum! How embarrarssing.

http://www.f1rejects.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=343

We should all shun alvaro3d. SHUN

I am still s***ting myself about this accident. I don't think it would be as bad if I watched it live, but I missed qualifying and was watching it recorded. Somehow that made it worse. I'm terrified that when I wake up tomorrow the news will be bad. I have my fingers and toes crossed. Shinji out.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:47

shinji wrote:
Enforcer wrote:Can't wait for the Brawn were trying to sabotage Barrichello's car conspiracy theories to crop up...

They have; on our very own forum! How embarrarssing.

http://www.f1rejects.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=343

We should all shun alvaro3d. SHUN

I am still s***ting myself about this accident. I don't think it would be as bad if I watched it live, but I missed qualifying and was watching it recorded. Somehow that made it worse. I'm terrified that when I wake up tomorrow the news will be bad. I have my fingers and toes crossed. Shinji out.

Such is the price for my inobservence.

I'm worried about it because of what happened to Surtees. Okay it was a much heavier object that hit him, but still... anything at that speed is deadly. I'll be happy to see Felipe awake and well again, and stunned if he's back in the car before end of season.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:50

shinji wrote:I'm terrified that when I wake up tomorrow the news will be bad. I have my fingers and toes crossed.

Indeed. Bloody Internet, that's just how I feel.

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:54

Massa has nothing to gain from driving again this season, and anyway it feels callous to talk about his future when its not 100% he'll make a full recovery. I'll sleep uneasily tonight and I'll be relieved when I check teletext in the morning and there's no bad news on his condition.

muttley · Post by **muttley** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:02

According to what I have read on italian websites, Ferrari PR Luca Colajanni said that Felipe will be awaken from the coma tomorrow morning around 10am and subjected to a CAT scan. Let's hope for the best.

ZBF1 · Post by **ZBF1** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:07

so who will come in for the next race?

luca badoer and marc gene are listed as "reserve drivers"

however i doubt ferrari will want to throw them in

may i suggest hwnsnbm?

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:09

ZBF1 wrote:so who will come in for the next race?

luca badoer and marc gene are listed as "reserve drivers"

however i doubt ferrari will want to throw them in

may i suggest hwnsnbm?

How about Schumi?

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:12

Schumi for the win! :twisted:

Pedro_Diniz · Post by **Pedro_Diniz** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:13

Well, Bourdais has freed up his Sunday afternoons.

ZBF1 · Post by **ZBF1** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:14

noisebox wrote:
ZBF1 wrote:so who will come in for the next race?

luca badoer and marc gene are listed as "reserve drivers"

however i doubt ferrari will want to throw them in

may i suggest hwnsnbm?

How about Schumi?

thats the obvious boring one but i dont think he would want to do it

ZBF1 · Post by **ZBF1** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:15

Pedro_Diniz wrote:Well, Bourdais has freed up his Sunday afternoons.

im a big bourdais fan

i think he would do well in a good car

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:15

Pedro_Diniz wrote:Well, Bourdais has freed up his Sunday afternoons.

That's not as daft as it sounds - he's the only driver available with experience of 2009 cars. If I were them I'd be seriously considering him.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:19

CarlosFerreira wrote::twisted: Schumi for the win!

I'm inclined to think Ferrari will approach him first. Whether or not Schumacher will want to is another matter.

You never know, they might find a way to do a mid-season hijack of another team's driver either.

ZBF1 · Post by **ZBF1** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:22

Enforcer wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote::twisted: Schumi for the win!

I'm inclined to think Ferrari will approach him first. Whether or not Schumacher will want to is another matter.

You never know, they might find a way to do a mid-season hijack of another team's driver either.

you wouldnt mean a certain mr Alonso would you

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:26

Without wanting to go too much into this so soon after the accident, Luca Badoer is the Ferrari official reserve driver and I believe (after the 1999 Salo debacle) that he has it in his contract now that he is first choice as stand-in. While he'd be the oldest driver on the grid at 39, that hasn't stopped Pedro DLR being mooted for a drive next year. Speaking purely in F1 Rejects terms, it would be fantastic to have a bona fide reject step into a Ferrari race seat.

But the main thing is that Massa does well overnight and starts to get better asap.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:28

ZBF1 wrote:
Enforcer wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote::twisted: Schumi for the win!

I'm inclined to think Ferrari will approach him first. Whether or not Schumacher will want to is another matter.

You never know, they might find a way to do a mid-season hijack of another team's driver either.

you wouldnt mean a certain mr Alonso would you

I reckon Flavio will have his bases too well covered for that. It's not a huge move up for Alonso this season either, although it would let him get the foot in at Ferrari.

I was actually thinking in terms of someone like Sutil or one of the BMW pilots. Of course they wouldn't exactly have job security with Massa & Raikonnen under contract for 2010, so it's not the most appealing career move.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:32

I suppose no driver under contract would be so silly as to change for Ferrari for half a season. So, I'm half expecting someone will casually mention a Mr. Villeneuve any minute now...

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:35

CarlosFerreira wrote:I suppose no driver under contract would be so silly as to change for Ferrari for half a season. So, I'm half expecting someone will casually mention a Mr. Villeneuve any minute now...

How about JV?

Seriously though, I could see Sutil plumping for it if Ferrari could buy out his Force India contract. Think about it: okay the car's not going to win him races, but it'll allow him to compete for points-scoring positions, and if he matches or beats Raikkonen, the paddock's assessment of his ability might increase and boost his chances of moving up the grid from Force India come next season.

Anyway, may Felipe's recovery be swift.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:53

Enforcer wrote:Seriously though, I could see Sutil plumping for it if Ferrari could buy out his Force India contract. Think about it: okay the car's not going to win him races, but it'll allow him to compete for points-scoring positions, and if he matches or beats Raikkonen, the paddock's assessment of his ability might increase and boost his chances of moving up the grid from Force India come next season.

I think you're forgetting Kimi's track record with ruining Sutil's good races...

Henrique · Post by **Henrique** » 25 Jul 2009, 23:11

According to Badoer's profile on F1 Rejects, Todt promised Badoer in 2001 that he was not just the Ferrari tester, but also the reserve driver. In fact, Badoer rejected several drive offers just to remain a tester for Ferrari. Although Badoer hasn't raced in years, he knows the car very well.
I'd say Ferrari will go for Badoer or steal a driver from another team. They'll hire Alonso or maybe Kubica, who quite honestly is much better material than that excuse of a car that BMW gave him this year (and I'm a former BMW sympathizer).
Ferrari cares a lot about their image, so I really doubt they'll consider JV, Bourdais or even Takuma Sato.

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 25 Jul 2009, 23:33

Henrique wrote:Although Badoer hasn't raced in years, he knows the car very well.

Given this year's ban on in-season testing, I'm not sure about that. Although if Gene is also still on Ferrari's books, at least he's done some form of racing this year ... and earned a Le Mans 24hrs win no less.

Having said that, to be honest, given there's four weeks until Valencia, I'm not sure that Ferrari's even given much thought to finding a replacement.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 25 Jul 2009, 23:58

dragonsteincole wrote:Is there any news on the third driver being put into his car, or Kimi being the sole car for Ferrari tomorrow, because I will be amazed and possibly appauled if they let Massa drive.

Raikkonen will be the sole Ferrari out there in the race. The rules state that a driver can only take part in the race if he qualifies for it first.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 26 Jul 2009, 00:32

I haven't seen video of the crash myself (Couldn't be bothered staying up till 1am for Qualifying) but from the pictures I saw that must have been one scary moment for everyone.

Snoozey2 · Post by **Snoozey2** » 26 Jul 2009, 01:20

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 26 Jul 2009, 01:22

eytl wrote:Having said that, to be honest, given there's four weeks until Valencia, I'm not sure that Ferrari's even given much thought to finding a replacement.

Oh, they'll be considering it. The best estimate puts Massa's recovery time at two months, if he isn't sidelined for the rest of the season. That means Singapore at the earliest, though I wouldn't be too surprised if he is passed as fit for Monza. Badoer and Gene are the test drivers, so one of them is likely to get the call - most likely Gene as Badoer is pushing forty and hasn't driven in a race in a decade - but I'm hearing stupidly funny suggestions that Nelson Piquet will be released after Hungary and picked up by Ferrari, or that they'll draft Sebastien Bourdais in. I fail to see what those two could achieve in two or three races with Ferrari given that they haven't done anything in eighteen months to warrant it.

Actually, given that Ferrari are pretty much out of the title hunt, I wouldn't be too surprised if they drafted Italian Formula Two driver Mirko Bortolotti. He tested the F2008 back in November, and he was the fastest man around Fiorano ever. He might be a little young at nineteen, but Alguersuari hasn't killed anyone yet, so Bortolotti might be accepted. He's also won the Italian F3 title, so his Superlicence isn't a problem. nor is experience; after all, Fiorano is not a straight-line test like Alguerusari's have been. And the tifosi would go bananas at the sight of an Italian in a Ferrari again for the Italian Grand Prix.

Bortolotti to Ferrari. You heard it here first.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 26 Jul 2009, 01:38

My Ferrari 'insider' friend told me a few weeks back that Badoer is indeed still Third Driver, despite his age, and would definitely be called up should any of the drivers have a tummy bug (as I put it at the time, not wanting to tempt fate):

"Yes, Luca is still our third driver which is why you always see him at the GPs."

They may call up someone else for a longer duration substitution, but I can't imagine why. Sensible money is on Luca.

Ridge Racer · Post by **Ridge Racer** » 26 Jul 2009, 04:50

As much as I despise Ferrari I would never wish anything like this on them or their drivers I sincerely hope that Filipe Massa will be alright, but no one will know anything until they can run some more tests on him to determine the extent and seriousness of his injuries, that looked like a horrible accident (I hate to compare it to what happened to Ayrton Senna), I don't mean in any way to sound giddy (I would never laugh at anyone elses misfortune except maybe Sebastian Bordais) at Ferrari's misfortune (making jokes about anyone's passing or serious injury is beyond bad taste) but if things take a turn for the worse this could be the first fatality in fifteen years for Formula 1 and Ferrari's first since 1982, lets all hope that it doesn't come to that.

As for a fill in driver I think that Schumacher has been out of F1 for too long interms of the technological development of the car (and he's got more than enough money that he doesn't ever have to drive a race car again) I hope that they will give Luca Bador a chance to strut his stuff and show what he is capable of until Massa is healed.

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 26 Jul 2009, 05:20

Snoozey2 wrote:i for one will probably continue to remain on pins and needles until i see Felipe baby walk out that hospital on his own power!

Agree. Especially when head injuries are involved. I can think of the Mark Donohue tragedy as an example.

Nin13 · Post by **Nin13** » 26 Jul 2009, 07:11

eytl wrote:
Henrique wrote:Although Badoer hasn't raced in years, he knows the car very well.

Given this year's ban on in-season testing, I'm not sure about that. Although if Gene is also still on Ferrari's books, at least he's done some form of racing this year ... and earned a Le Mans 24hrs win no less.

I think since Luca Badoer / Marc Gené should be given drive bcoz they are there for long time now. Marc Gené has been test driver since 2004 and Luca Badoer since 1998. Almost 10 year now for Luca Badoer and he will never get driver again. So for all his work for Ferrari Luca Badoer should be given drive, I think. Plus he is Italian.

Or else, Ferrari had tested 3 new Italians last year during pre-season testing, one of them might be called in.

eytl wrote:
Snoozey2 wrote:i for one will probably continue to remain on pins and needles until i see Felipe baby walk out that hospital on his own power!

Agree. Especially when head injuries are involved. I can think of the Mark Donohue tragedy as an example.

If Felipe had Concussion only, then 2-3 week break would have been good enough. But he also has skull damage and was even operated, so he may need 1 month of break to recover.

But as Mark Webber has proved with recent advances in medicine anything is possible.

But this will be difficult times for Massa family and his wife, so god give them strength to go through dificult times. :oops: